BornWithTeeth Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said: I never felt like the infested tissue was sentient. I always went under the assumption that the infested were pretty much zombies, same for anything controlled by infestation. Yes, but this isn't about whether or not individual Infestation units are sapient. It's about whether an independent Warframe is sapient, and the definition of it is simple: if it has a concept of its own existence, and acknowledges its own self as an entity, then it is a person, a sapient person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus230 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 @BornWithTeethWell, we can have both, just add some sort of loyality system and poof, we have independent Warframe that can get sick of our S#&$ and we still can use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OniDax Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 37 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: In all seriousness, I think doing it this way would be much more interesting and challenging than just saying "Umbra is an independent Warframe, whoops, not anymore, now you have a braindead zombie Umbra to pilot around. Have fun!" Nope. Still strikes me as weird. Ever since, about, oh, March? Maybe even February? People have been saying "I bet Umbra is this mysterious badass ultra-renegade Warframe from a secret order of super amazingly cool Warframes who need no Operator!" and responding to that by effectively saying "...so let's kill it, skin it, lobotomise it, and use its tortured corpse as a suit!" strikes me as......a bit dissonant, really. I mean, which of these options do you actually want? We're probably gonna get both. The Warframes will probably be able to exist without the Operators. DE did in fact refer to an Umbra character. Sure, I don't agree with the idea that there should be some secret order of independent Warframes. After all, we're the Tenno, not the Warframes. But we're getting some Umbra character, so there's a chance this could be a Tenno who no longer has a human body, and only exists as energy or something in the warframe. Either way, 1) we're getting a separate Umbra character (probably an NPC), and 2) we're gonna keep being the Operator. So, that's basically like having both. As for my personal opinion, what I actually want? I'd like to be the Operators, operating Warframes via transference, but I just wish the Operators were adults, and not children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGodofWiFi Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said: I'm not interested in enslaving something which can be proved to be sapient, though. If Umbra is a threat to my Operator, then I'll kill it. If not, it can go its own way. what about instead we form a partnership with umbras. they agree to serve as our frames and when we use our focus abilities they retake control for a while run around and murder stuff. and while we don't have him equipped he walks around the liset similar to our pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 37 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said: what about instead we form a partnership with umbras. they agree to serve as our frames and when we use our focus abilities they retake control for a while run around and murder stuff. and while we don't have him equipped he walks around the liset similar to our pets. someone made that same thought a few pages back, possible in one of the as yet open rooms is the umbra frame area it could be fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) If Umbra wants a room in my Orbiter, then it's got to pay rent, acceptable as one Forma per two weeks. Or, if I'm not joking.....Umbra doesn't get a space in my Orbiter. Nuh uh. It can go do its own thing. I don't particularly want any malfunctioning and potentially dangerous equipment lying around, I already have an Infestation problem. Edited July 20, 2016 by BornWithTeeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)MK Ultra K11 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said: In all seriousness, I think doing it this way would be much more interesting and challenging than just saying "Umbra is an independent Warframe, whoops, not anymore, now you have a braindead zombie Umbra to pilot around. Have fun!" Nope. Still strikes me as weird. Ever since, about, oh, March? Maybe even February? People have been saying "I bet Umbra is this mysterious badass ultra-renegade Warframe from a secret order of super amazingly cool Warframes who need no Operator!" and responding to that by effectively saying "...so let's kill it, skin it, lobotomise it, and use its tortured corpse as a suit!" strikes me as......a bit dissonant, really. I mean, which of these options do you actually want? *phts on doctors outfit and prepares scalpel* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 Just now, BornWithTeeth said: If Umbra wants a room in my Orbiter, then it's got to pay rent, acceptable as one Forma per two weeks. Or, if I'm not joking.....Umbra doesn't get a space in my Orbiter. Nuh uh. It can go do its own thing. id take plat over formas .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)MK Ultra K11 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said: Yes, but this isn't about whether or not individual Infestation units are sapient. It's about whether an independent Warframe is sapient, and the definition of it is simple: if it has a concept of its own existence, and acknowledges its own self as an entity, then it is a person, a sapient person. Well, I was thinking about the option that we play as Umbra just as we play as the operator. It would be the exact same gameplay with some minor tweaks exempt from a lore perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 The actual problem with that specific suggestion (a room on the Orbiter dedicated to Umbra) is one of ubiquity. In other words, every player's got an Orbiter, but most certainly not every player wants Umbra. If DE finally opened up the Orbiter's lower compartment, but dedicated a huge chunk of it to housing what a fair number of people really do see as "Knock-off Edgecalibur Prime", folks would not be thrilled. I highly doubt that Umbra is going to be accorded importance equal to the frigging Operator. Umbra is not going to be the new player character of the game, or if he is then I'm out, just out. Making Umbra an accessible thing, certainly. Making Umbra mandatory? Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGodofWiFi Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 24 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said: someone made that same thought a few pages back, possible in one of the as yet open rooms is the umbra frame area it could be fun oh damn. guess I'm a little late to that party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)MK Ultra K11 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: The actual problem with that specific suggestion (a room on the Orbiter dedicated to Umbra) is one of ubiquity. In other words, every player's got an Orbiter, but most certainly not every player wants Umbra. If DE finally opened up the Orbiter's lower compartment, but dedicated a huge chunk of it to housing what a fair number of people really do see as "Knock-off Edgecalibur Prime", folks would not be thrilled. I highly doubt that Umbra is going to be accorded importance equal to the frigging Operator. Umbra is not going to be the new player character of the game, or if he is then I'm out, just out. Making Umbra an accessible thing, certainly. Making Umbra mandatory? Nah. I could just imagine your walking around your orbiter and you see your umbra frames watching tv and being complete pigs and then when you glare at them they just say "What?" Stupidly and continue to make a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 Just now, LorianTheElderPrince said: oh damn. guess I'm a little late to that party so many ideas have been tossed about its hard to keep track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)MK Ultra K11 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said: oh damn. guess I'm a little late to that party I thought of that when the infested door first showed up though I don't think Umbra will be in there, probably just Ordis. Edited July 20, 2016 by (XB1)MK Ultra K11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGodofWiFi Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 8 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: The actual problem with that specific suggestion (a room on the Orbiter dedicated to Umbra) is one of ubiquity. In other words, every player's got an Orbiter, but most certainly not every player wants Umbra. If DE finally opened up the Orbiter's lower compartment, but dedicated a huge chunk of it to housing what a fair number of people really do see as "Knock-off Edgecalibur Prime", folks would not be thrilled. I highly doubt that Umbra is going to be accorded importance equal to the frigging Operator. Umbra is not going to be the new player character of the game, or if he is then I'm out, just out. Making Umbra an accessible thing, certainly. Making Umbra mandatory? Nah. Well if he's being worked into the main quest of U19 then he is kind of mandatory. lore wise anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said: Well if he's being worked into the main quest of U19 then he is kind of mandatory. lore wise anyway. lore wise i hope it answers about the frames what are they really ? how were they created/developed? are they alive? are they sentient? ect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said: Well if he's being worked into the main quest of U19 then he is kind of mandatory. lore wise anyway. Oh, yes. Mandatory in the sense that if he is part of the quest then he is part of the lore. You know what else is part of a quest and part of the lore? Kubrows. Completely optional, you don't have to have one. Same with Darvo, he's part of a critical quest early on, and then you need never talk to him again if you don't want to. Basically, the Orbiter is the player character's home. There's no need for Umbra to be installed there, and I for one would not like it in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)MK Ultra K11 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: Oh, yes. Mandatory in the sense that if he is part of the quest then he is part of the lore. You know what else is part of a quest and part of the lore? Kubrows. Completely optional, you don't have to have one. Same with Darvo, he's part of a critical quest early on, and then you need never talk to him again if you don't want to. Basically, the Orbiter is the player character's home. There's no need for Umbra to be installed there, and I for one would not like it in the slightest. *Umbra glares at you from across the orbiter* U wot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGodofWiFi Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said: lore wise i hope it answers about the frames what are they really ? how were they created/developed? are they alive? are they sentient? ect yea I want to see how umbras reveal the answers to those questions too. 2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: Oh, yes. Mandatory in the sense that if he is part of the quest then he is part of the lore. You know what else is part of a quest and part of the lore? Kubrows. Completely optional, you don't have to have one. Same with Darvo, he's part of a critical quest early on, and then you need never talk to him again if you don't want to. Basically, the Orbiter is the player character's home. There's no need for Umbra to be installed there, and I for one would not like it in the slightest. from what I can gather you really don't care whether umbra comes into the game or not. in fact I'd go so far as to say you're actively against it xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, LorianTheElderPrince said: yea I want to see how umbras reveal the answers to those questions too. from what I can gather you really don't care whether umbra comes into the game or not. in fact I'd go so far as to say you're actively against it xD more like likes to start fires .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said: yea I want to see how umbras reveal the answers to those questions too. from what I can gather you really don't care whether umbra comes into the game or not. in fact I'd go so far as to say you're actively against it xD You see, that's the part which people fail to understand, over and over and over again. I am deeply interested in Umbra. I am fascinated by the idea of what kinds of insight into the setting can be carried into the game with it. I like the notion that it might shake up some of our perceptions of how things work. I am interested in Umbra. I'm just not hyped for Umbra, and when people who have hype come into contact with people who don't, the people with hype tend to interpret lack of hype as being actively against it. Do you understand now? I want to see Umbra implemented. I just don't want to see it rushed into the game as a meaningless skin. I don't want to see it implemented in a way which would be bad for the rest of the game, i.e. as some hideously overpowered thing that wrecks the game's already somewhat shaky balance. I don't want to see it implemented in a way which is shallow and annoying, i.e. "Heeeeere's Umbra! The coolest thing in the Universe! Have you all got hype?!" Edited July 20, 2016 by BornWithTeeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGodofWiFi Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said: more like likes to start fires .. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)MK Ultra K11 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Just now, BornWithTeeth said: You see, that's the part which people fail to understand, over and over and over again. I am deeply interested in Umbra. I am fascinated by the idea of what kinds of insight into the setting can be carried into the game with it. I like the notion that it might shake up some of our perceptions of how things work. I am interested in Umbra. I'm just not hyped for Umbra, and when people who have hype come into contact with people who don't, the people with hype tend to interpret lack of hype as being actively against it. Do you understand now? Hmmmm....I've been around the block a few times and in a way you do seem against the part of it that many want and you may or may not even care about Umbra. *writes notes down on doctors clipboard* What else are you supposed to do during a physiological evaluation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGodofWiFi Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said: You see, that's the part which people fail to understand, over and over and over again. I am deeply interested in Umbra. I am fascinated by the idea of what kinds of insight into the setting can be carried into the game with it. I like the notion that it might shake up some of our perceptions of how things work. I am interested in Umbra. I'm just not hyped for Umbra, and when people who have hype come into contact with people who don't, the people with hype tend to interpret lack of hype as being actively against it. Do you understand now? probably the reason why people fail to understand is because the way you present your messages is kind of negative. just sayin it makes it seem like you really don't care for umbra. i'm not that hyped either. i'm more hyped for fairy frame and the quest itself. Edited July 20, 2016 by LorianTheElderPrince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornWithTeeth Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said: probably the reason why people fail to understand is because the way you present your messages. just sayin it makes it seem like you really don't care for umbra. i'm not that hyped either. i'm more hyped for fairy frame and the quest itself. See also my edited message. I want to see Umbra implemented.....just, not in a way which would be bad for the game. Forcing Umbra into everyone's Orbiter would be bad for the game. Making Umbra massively overpowered would be bad for the game. If you go back through the thread, you'll find that I become disapproving in response to three things: - Suggesting that Umbra be overpowered as all hell. - Acting as though Umbra is the most important thing in the game and for the game, acting as though the game should revolve around Umbra, regardless of whether that would be fitting or good for the rest of the game. - Treating baseless speculation as fact. Edited July 20, 2016 by BornWithTeeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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