Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

3 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

It is an indirect extension similar to how a higher energy pool is technically an indirect duration boost to toggles. Enemies simply wouldn't die to anything during the grace so it would act almost as a flat duration increase.

The health decay exists for reasons similar to my bursa example. Some high end enemies are just too darn good at absorbing blows from their own faction and as a result would take inordinate amounts of time to die naturally even if you didn't heal them.

Again, not aiming to be combative, but this is false.

With health decay being percentage based, Armor, health, shield nor enemy type matter; When the ability expires they all die at exact same time. With SotD if they aren't healed nor attacked a level 1 crawler will last the exact same amount of time as a 100 level bursa. 

Beating the horse but, we went from 20 shadows at full health for the entire duration to discussing taking health from only 7. Did you feel that Sotd was too much/OP before the rework? The 7 were intended to be stronger. Do you feel the 7 should be weaker/less health than the 20 from before?

Secondly the comparison to Prime Flow is also invalid. If you have a toggle ability that lasts as long as you have energy, then adding more energy via prime flow increases the time the ability can remain active.

Having a grace period does not increase the duration. It simply takes the decay on a 30 second ability and condenses it into the remaining time after a grace period. It will still end in 30 seconds.

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by (XB1)His 1st Shadow

[(PSN)salovel1991]

5 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Health conversion is hard to get, the sheer amount of hard to acquire mods that are practically required on Nekros is rediculous

 

I've gotten into a few arguments with people about this. Lol. I'm on your side of the issue though. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)salovel1991

[Omega-Shadowblade]

1 hour ago, (XB1)His 1st Shadow said:

Again, not aiming to be combative, but this is false.

With health decay being percentage based, Armor, health, shield nor enemy type matter; When the ability expires they all die at exact same time. With SotD if they aren't healed nor attacked a level 1 crawler will last the exact same amount of time as a 100 level bursa. 

Beating the horse but, we went from 20 shadows at full health for the entire duration to discussing taking health from only 7. Did you feel that Sotd was too much/OP before the rework? The 7 were intended to be stronger. Do you feel the 7 should be weaker/less health than the 20 from before?

Secondly the comparison to Prime Flow is also invalid. If you have a toggle ability that lasts as long as you have energy, then adding more energy via prime flow increases the time the ability can remain active.

Having a grace period does not increase the duration. It simply takes the decay on a 30 second ability and condenses it into the remaining time after a grace period. It will still end in 30 seconds.

 

 

 

Alright. For the first point. That was along the lines of my thought process The health decay is theri in order to bring about more fairness among the enemy types. But that is not the sole reason it is there.

For the second paragraph. No the old SotD was not OP and I don't feel that the current ones should be weakened. In fact they could use a bit of a boost to their damage. Yes the 7 were designed to be stronger, but they also weren't supposed to handle an army by themselves.

For the third paragraph. Yes seems you understand what I mean there for indirect duration increase.

But why I compared it to that, is because it does have a similar effect just beyond no health decay. I'm pretty sure shadows will last longer and take less overall damage in that time compared to the health decay thus when they end the grace period they are in a better position health wise than with constant decay. Thus this means under the affects of decay they will have lasted longer overall thus having created an "extended duration" I just wonder if such a large amount of grace time that changes with duration in combination with health decay being affected by duration will make the ability run longer than is reasonable. I mean even Atlas' rumblers don't go over 2 minutes. That was at least my understanding from your earlier stuff.

When I read what you say now, does that mean shadows will get hit with massive decay once the grace period is over?

Edited August 19, 2016 by Omega-Shadowblade

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

So what were you talking about a mobile snowglobe for????

That's what Sotd basicly was?

No aggressive AI, no Aggro, just occasionally catching bullets by sheer Mass...

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That's what Sotd basicly was?

No aggressive AI, no Aggro, just occasionally catching bullets by sheer Mass...

I see...with or without SOS augment?

There was aggro, but it was similar to playing Nyx.

Ai is still bad.

But all this doesn't really help his case. The "snowglobe" attacks more often, but does less damage...And armor scaling just means it's still a "snowglobe"the same as before. That's also another reason to limit is to heavies, not for the "extra damage" but so they would live slightly long enough to not be full nerf

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[Dumpins]

In my opinion the health decay should be lowered a bit. Its nice the ult summons the strongest unit's but with only 7 its still less damage. That should be buffed up too. I'm fine with desecrate maybe a corpse explison or something. With soul punch I'd like to see some proc on it.

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Also known as Russian Roulette

While enemies are still technically capable of shooting you while confused, they only do that if you're close to them. Meanwhile, Chaos affects enemies in a radius almost double the size of Terrify and affecting an unlimited number of enemies, all while not needing any Power Strength whatsoever. Sure, it's not hard crowd control, but it still significantly impedes enemies, and it does that across the entire map, with the additional benefit of indirectly affecting enemies outside of its massive radius. All while causing none of the modding nightmares that Nekros suffers from. 

[NocturneOfSolace]

You stopped short of fully making them great 100%

Can we make Soul Punch an ability that isn't poopy now? It's damage is extremely low(even with high power strength), it has no useful utility, and the enjoyment of watching an enemy go flying is a novelty that wears off quickly

[YellowVolt]

23 minutes ago, NocturneOfSolace said:

You stopped short of fully making them great 100%

Can we make Soul Punch an ability that isn't poopy now? It's damage is extremely low(even with high power strength), it has no useful utility, and the enjoyment of watching an enemy go flying is a novelty that wears off quickly

I can agree on this; with the exception of the Augment for Soul Punch being a guaranteed quick revival if you use it on a player, I haven't seen much use for it outside of this.

Edited August 19, 2016 by YellowVolt

[Gurpgork]

4 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Yes the 7 were designed to be stronger, but they also weren't supposed to handle an army by themselves.

Why not? The 20 were an army, so they could handle an army by themselves. Does the ability need to be weaker now?

Edited August 20, 2016 by Gurpgork

[Omega-Shadowblade]

6 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Why not? The 20 were an army, so they could handle an army by themselves. Does the ability need to be weaker now?

I mean they aren't designed to take on 20x the enemies and come out like a rose. Though I still say it actually needs some damage improvement like I said earlier.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

10 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

To be honest I still don't see a point in having health decay at all.

It was a try?

They bound it to the Teleport/Heal and restock mechanic which is considerable better then the prior duration/recycle cyrcle was BUT thers most definitly better ways leading to the same, probably even better results.

 

This is probably getting old at this point but Oy, imagine ivaras Arrow selection on Sotd, giving you the choice to Teleport your shadows(no energy, no min range, instant), teleport&Heal your shadows (for a energy percentage worthy the Heal, nearly no Casting time,no min range), restock, heal & Teleport your shadows (min range, Casting time gettin bigger the more shadows you need) or to completely recycle your shadows.

They had this option, this is the ideal, it sounds like a typical Management decision tho to "not be repetative" on theyr Content.

 

Me, i honestly couldn't care less... the duration is essencially the same, every death only results from them FINALLY, after all these years, pulling Aggro; plus using theyr boosted, scaling damage.

 

Same builds still give the same duration, on overall lower totall numbers, with the difference that they shadows actually use them now. (Important Factor)

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Why not? The 20 were an army, so they could handle an army by themselves. Does the ability need to be weaker now?

Could they tho?

 

Or rather, did they?

 

The 7 most definitly handle theyr armys pretty well.

Edited August 20, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Gurpgork]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Could they tho?

 

Or rather, did they?

Yes, actually. They were pretty good at firefights if I placed them relatively close to enemies (like within shotgun range), and I kept them on a pretty short leash with my ~23 second duration. 

32 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The 7 most definitly handle theyr armys pretty well.

Perhaps so, but 20 of them would definitely handle armies better. The ability needed and deserved the buffs it got without the catastrophic nerf to its potential DPS. 

[Wakeoflove]

On 8/13/2016 at 9:58 PM, Thebel said:

It makes sense to complain about the numbers when the shadows weren't even buffed as compensation. Now we have the same Shadows with the same strength dying faster because of health decay. Not to mention the fact that 7 bombards are gonna be much less effective than 7 butchers when you consider the ai. The power was nerfed so hard. If they at least buffed the multipliers to compensate it would be less an issue with numbers but they did not. 

People seemed to be complaining, not about the numbers dropping without compensation in the multiplier, but simply that they had fewer minions and thus felt like "less of an army." That's what I was talking about, people who complain about nothing more than wanting to see more minions on the map.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

33 minutes ago, Wakeoflove said:

People seemed to be complaining, not about the numbers dropping without compensation in the multiplier, but simply that they had fewer minions and thus felt like "less of an army." That's what I was talking about, people who complain about nothing more than wanting to see more minions on the map.

My main issue is the health decay and inadequate compensation personally.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

5 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

My main issue is the health decay and inadequate compensation personally.

I agree. Inadequate conversion to health and damage leaves SotD in a over balanced state. As 200% power strength gave us 14 shadows and even with standard duration of 100% that was 30 seconds of 84% damage reduction. We can still achieve damage reduction but at a cost of them now receiving twice as much damage. Sad to say if in the rare instance I use shadows I would rather have creeping terrify and health conversion. Since it's cheaper to cast and helps shadows ACTUALLY kill something. 

Edited August 20, 2016 by (PS4)salovel1991

[(PSN)salovel1991]

So, it seems we've almost reached the end of our feedback "cycle". Posts now moving to Titania, new augments, weapon glitches, etc. That's not the problem. I know the developers were eager to get out The Silver Grove update as the community was growing with angst. All of OUR constructive feedback is necessary to push this game forwards. I know DE will likely never see this. It feels that Nekros posts are being pushed out of sight and out of mind, hence the reason for my post. There are a few simple changes that can be made to mitigate some of the negative feedback:

1. Simply get rid of the enemy capacity on Terrify, or raise it's number. Reworks are supposed to help get rid of out-dated concepts. Such as having low or any capacity on CC abilities. 

2. Getting rid of health decay is one solution that works, but if health decay must remain a factor may I ask that we get a form of compensation. Such as a health and damage buff. It seems like we're working with a few of the tools missing from our shop. Currently I feel less inclined to run shield of shadows simply because it scales with power strength. This has made Nekros more of a min maxing nightmare that is heavily reliant on many different mods, where as other frames do not heavily rely on every single stat. 

        A.Valkyr can sacrifice range and do well with efficiency/duration

        B.Frost can sacrifice duration and do well with strength/efficiency

       C. Nova can sacrifice range and do well with strength/efficiency/duration

The list goes on and on with the warframes. He just keeps creating a vicious cycle upon himself trying to optimize him. If you've read this far I do apologize for the lengthy topic. If you would like to try my build: 

   P. Flow, P. Continuity, Health Conversion, Creeping Terrify, Equilibrium, Vitality, Intensify, Despoil, Rejuvenation, and an exilus mod of whatever. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

8 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Yes, actually. They were pretty good at firefights if I placed them relatively close to enemies (like within shotgun range), and I kept them on a pretty short leash with my ~23 second duration. 

Perhaps so, but 20 of them would definitely handle armies better. The ability needed and deserved the buffs it got without the catastrophic nerf to its potential DPS. 

They still got a buff to theyr actuall dps?

[(PSN)salovel1991]

On 20/08/2016 at 8:00 AM, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

[removed by mod]

You know if you didn't have anything to really say it would've been better had you just not replied. I'm sure something you like at one point will change and you will dislike it. 

Edited August 22, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed rude quoted comment :)

[Sh4rk3y]

18 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Actually, Nekros has never been able to summon Eximus units. 

Actually, he was able to summon them long time ago.

Then they removed that due mysterious reasons.

[Redemptionist]

 

Well, it would seem DE has already moved on to newer things, and so has the community. Nekros must be working as intended, judging by how none of the community salt feedback has been acknowledged, let alone followed up on. 

Your feedback is well worded, and remarkably unsalted, but there has been alot of that on this topic, and yet Nekros remains the way he is. Must be futile. Moving on.

[(PSN)salovel1991]

3 minutes ago, Redemptionist said:

 

Well, it would seem DE has already moved on to newer things, and so has the community. Nekros must be working as intended, judging by how none of the community salt feedback has been acknowledged, let alone followed up on. 

Your feedback is well worded, and remarkably unsalted, but there has been alot of that on this topic, and yet Nekros remains the way he is. Must be futile. Moving on.

I feel like we should be reasonable and maybe moving on is reasonable. I mean most reworks have been in the right direction. Then we got Mag, Vauban, as well as Nekros they all just seem sloppy and unfinished.. Not that Vauban really got a rework. 

[GrimAtrament]

maybe they are fading out because people are acaculy figuring out how to build nekyros just saying

[(PSN)Double991]

I still miss my shadow army being replaced by a shadow squad.