Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[The_Stalker]

I would actually love to have a life meter maybe on the side right above the ability? Kinda like Ivara's arrow symbols.

[Laidain]

Just checked,it's still affected by duration....

XD.This makes the change even more worse.Shadows of the dead is only good if you actually use the augment,Warframe abilities shouldn't need augments to be good.It feels like a band aid mod.

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

7 hours ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

If only DE would just listen. But they aren't going to. Evidence is in The Silver Grove Hotfix 5. Titania has had a few tweaks based on feedback. While we can't get reduced energy costs, reduced/no health drain, or be rid of an enemy cap on a CC ability... 

Well, who knows. Perhaps they are working on it but perhaps due to the way the code is set up it is a difficult task.

---

Either way I would strongly suggest that when the next Devstream post comes up, we try to mention these improvements in the topic. Perhaps if they notice it, they will be willing to address it.

[The_Stalker]

23 minutes ago, (XB1)RAG is NAROK said:

Well, who knows. Perhaps they are working on it but perhaps due to the way the code is set up it is a difficult task.

---

Either way I would strongly suggest that when the next Devstream post comes up, we try to mention these improvements in the topic. Perhaps if they notice it, they will be willing to address it.

Yea, I also feel like it's the fact that Titania basically just came out and they want to focus on her for a little bit and then start fixing other frames.

[Soju.]

As the title said. Can we please, un-nerf Nekros, to pre-Nekros Prime update, pretty please?

Before Nekros Prime update, maxed strength gives Nekros as much as 15 Shadows (or more), now his cap is 7. That's not to mention that they are constantly losing health now, regeneration and renewing Shadows are nice, first I heard of this I was excited, but then now that I realized they are constantly losing health (watching one of my Shadow lost 1/3 its health after 1 hit by another Corrupted is painful), now the user has to actively regenerate their Shadows and renewing them, which means wasting more energy.

Now what the hell is this? I might be one of the minor here that loved his 4th (despite it could have desperately use a buff), now it's S#&$ and I have literally zero reason to play Nekros, you guys just literally made him 99% farm frame with that Desecrate buff and the nerf to his 4th. His 4th was extremely useful in using the Shadows as being bullet eaters for its master and his teammates and distract the enemies, it had some sort of crowd control and overall a good support ability for a supporter like Nekros, now it can't even do that effectively, they can't kill because their damage is literally so small comparing to the higher level enemies' health and they die so easily it's ridiculous.

This update is a blessing to those farmers and save them from spamming Desecrate, but such a curse to those who ACTUALLY plays Nekros. If prior to this you didn't use his 4th but only his 1st and 2nd and 3rd, good for you, but damn nobody asked for this nerf to his 4th, it wasn't even popular, I get asked "what build is that" every time I use his 4th and gets a mini-army, that's to show how unpopular that is. What the bloody hell?

 

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[Eldritchsqueaker]

I agree, with all the Nekros players I've played with lately it just feels like the shadows are almost useless right now. Without the augment they pretty much are. Why DE chose to nerf Nekros I don't really know. It'd be nice to get some acknowledgement that this is an issue.

[Xiusa]

I feel entitled just looking by looking at the title.

 

Less shadows because they caused performance issues, so they made them stronger to compensate. I don't see any issue here since it's properly balanced. Constantly keeping your minions alive and in-check gives more of a necromancer vibe than just "bam here they are"

[Eldritchsqueaker]

As much as I'd just like the decay removed entirely I agree that having the healing cost greatly reduced would help a lot.

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

This update is a blessing to those farmers and save them from spamming Desecrate, but such a curse to those who ACTUALLY plays Nekros.

Pretty much.  Nevermind that those who were proficient at playing Nekros could Desecrate effectively while also contributing to the mission.

Also, Desecrate was also sharply nerfed by this update, so the looting aspect was gutted as well, in exchange for making it easier (mindless) to use.  

Edited August 28, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Soju.]

7 minutes ago, Xiusa said:

I feel entitled just looking by looking at the title.

 

Less shadows because they caused performance issues, so they made them stronger to compensate. I don't see any issue here since it's properly balanced. Constantly keeping your minions alive and in-check gives more of a necromancer vibe than just "bam here they are"

"Less shadows because they caused performance issues"

That is such a bad argument. It's 2016, almost Q3 of 2016, and nearing 2017. I used a stock gtx 760 (a pretty low to mid end card, released in 2013, way over 3 years ago) and still rocked this game on max with sweetfx or reshade + all post processing effects + physx and it runs 60fps at 1080p.

 

This game isn't even that demanding. If your PC is that weak at this period of time, then considers an upgrade, or lower your settings, stop trying to eat like a King when you're in deep poverty and wonders why you're still in poverty.

 

They aren't even dramatically stronger, they're still crap, its just that now they are even crappier because of the health decay, low amount of Shadows, and I have to renew them every 20 seconds. What would give more of a necromancer vibe is to have a bunch of undead you raised up instead of 7 puppies running around getting killed so fast in a crowd you can't even react.

Edited August 28, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[Xiusa]

Just now, AlphaWolf003 said:

"Less shadows because they caused performance issues"

That is such a bad argument. It's 2016, almost Q3 of 2016, and nearing 2017. I used a stock gtx 760 (a pretty low to mid end card) and still rocked this game on max with sweetfx or reshade + all post processing effects + physx and it runs 60fps at 1080p.

 

This game isn't even that demanding. If your PC is that weak at this period of time, then considers an upgrade, or lower your settings. 

 

They aren't even dramatically stronger, they're still crap, its just that now they are even crappier because of the health decay, low amount of Shadows, and I have to renew them every 20 seconds. What would give more of a necromancer vibe is to have a bunch of undead you raised up instead of 7 puppies running around getting killed so fast in a crowd you can't even react.

Yeah no man saying you had no issues with it being the way it was doesn't mean other people didn't. Saying whatever year it is or nearly is has nothing to do with anything. Some people can't afford an upgrade either, and even at low settings having someone summon around 15 new entities at once can simply slow your computer, crash the game, etc. Shadows scale with the enemies you kill to get them. Kill 7 at 3 mins in a survival, and if you manage to keep them up while maintaining their health, they will be those same shadows at 30 mins. Let them die, kill 7 more enemies, then summon a new horde. Plus, why are you expecting minions to be super powerful in the first place??? They're minions, not super secret bosses.

[Richtor2415]

They didn't even nerf him though. They explained many times the limitation of the total shadows of his fourth was for optimization- even I had some FPS drops during those 15+ shadow armies-, but in my opinion, they're better now, his 3rd ability aside. I'm not sure what build OP uses, but the army of shadows are less, this is true, but I'm preeetty sure DE also buffed them, so they're more-or-less the same, but with less FPS drops. Please correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Richtor2415

[Vance.Stubbs]

1 hour ago, Xiusa said:

Less shadows because they caused performance issues, so they made them stronger to compensate.

Except they didn't.

[Xiusa]

1 minute ago, Vance.Stubbs said:

Except they didn't.

Keeping them alive effectively counts as making them stronger, instead of just having them disappear at the end of the ability.

[Soju.]

8 minutes ago, Xiusa said:

Yeah no man saying you had no issues with it being the way it was doesn't mean other people didn't. Saying whatever year it is or nearly is has nothing to do with anything. Some people can't afford an upgrade either, and even at low settings having someone summon around 15 new entities at once can simply slow your computer, crash the game, etc. Shadows scale with the enemies you kill to get them. Kill 7 at 3 mins in a survival, and if you manage to keep them up while maintaining their health, they will be those same shadows at 30 mins. Let them die, kill 7 more enemies, then summon a new horde. Plus, why are you expecting minions to be super powerful in the first place??? They're minions, not super secret bosses.

" Yeah no man saying you had no issues with it being the way it was doesn't mean other people didn't."

Um, it kinda does. It serves to prove a point, that a crappy low to mid end card these days can rock this game with literally 0 problems at all can say something. If you can't afford to even buy a gtx 750, which is less than $120 or some even cheaper AMD cards, then why are you even trying to game?

"Saying whatever year it is or nearly is has nothing to do with anything. "

Again, it kinda does. It's 2016, do you still use rocks to smash things and lick your armpit or wear a single piece of cloth, wrapped around your waist to cover your genital and walk around in public and act like it's normal? No, I don't think so.

If even at low settings and having 15 new entities spawned screw anyone's game up so badly, then please just quit the game. All the modes in this game except Extermination literally have a F*** tons of enemies spawning from every single direction, if you can't handle 15 being spawned in, then might as well just quit. And no when I summon minions, I expect them to do the work, not me doing the babysitting FOR them. And I never expected them to be super strong, I just said they need a buff, something like a duration buff or even make it permanent until they die would have been extremely helpful, but noooo, nerf it for whatever reason.

Edited August 28, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[Xiusa]

Just now, AlphaWolf003 said:

" Yeah no man saying you had no issues with it being the way it was doesn't mean other people didn't."

Um, it kinda does. It serves to prove a point, that a crappy low to mid end card these days can rock this game with literally 0 problems at all can say something. If you can't afford to even buy a gtx 750, which is less than $120 or some even cheaper AMD cards, then why are you even trying to game?

"Saying whatever year it is or nearly is has nothing to do with anything. "

Again, it kinda does. It's 2016, do you still use rocks to smash things and lick your armpit or wear a single piece of cloth, wrapped around your waist to cover your genital and walk around in public and act like it's normal? No, I don't think so.

If even at low settings and having 15 new entities spawned, then please just quit the game. All the modes in this game except Extermination literally have a F*** tons of enemies spawning from every single direction, if you can't handle 15 being spawned in, then might as well just quit. And no when I summon minions, I expect them to do the work, not me doing the babysitting FOR them. And I never expected them to be super strong, I just said they need a buff, something like a duration buff or even make it permanent until they die would have been extremely helpful, but noooo, nerf it for whatever reason.

You wanna be this entitled? Really? I'm out yo lmao

[Soju.]

1 minute ago, Xiusa said:

You wanna be this entitled? Really? I'm out yo lmao

Whoever's entitled is dependent on whoever's perspectives.

 

If you can't see the reasons I just lay out to you then I guess I have nothing else to say to you.

If you can't handle 15 npcs being spawned in, then don't even play Survival, or Mobile Defense, or Defense, which is like, what, half the modes this game offer? And that's not to mention they are essential for farming parts to craft. So your reasoning is pretty senseless to me.

[Vohim]

4 minutes ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

Whoever's entitled is dependent on whoever's perspectives.

 

If you can't see the reasons I just lay out to you then I guess I have nothing else to say to you.

If you can't handle 15 npcs being spawned in, then don't even play Survival, or Mobile Defense, or Defense, which is like, what, half the modes this game offer? And that's not to mention they are essential for farming parts to craft. So your reasoning is pretty senseless to me.

well hydroid's tentacle swarm caused/causes people problems 

so i dont see how nekros's minion army wouldnt cause even more issues as unlike the tentacle swarm nekros's minions are   fully programmed Ai rather than stationary objects 

[Soju.]

9 minutes ago, Richtor2415 said:

They didn't even nerf him though. They explained many times the limitation of the total shadows of his fourth was for optimization- even I had some FPS drops during those 15+ shadow armies-, but in my opinion, they're better now, his 3rd ability aside. I'm not sure what build OP uses, but the army of shadows are less, this is true, but I'm preeetty sure DE also buffed them, so they're more-or-less the same, but with less FPS drops. Please correct me if I'm wrong, though.

My build was/is pretty simple, maxed strength and duration to maximize Nekros' 4th ability's effectiveness. I don't use the corrupted mods that decrease durations or strength. I sacrifice some efficiency however, but that isn't much of a problem.

 

It's not a buff, when now I have to babysit every 20 seconds to renew and regenerate their health and having to waste a bunch of energy on doing that while also having to look for energy or waste mod spaces on mods that helps me replenish energy one way or another. And now he isn't even a proper necromancer.

 

What's funny is that even in the trailer for Nekros Prime they showed him upping so many shadows. And when people saw it and like his necromantic theme, then get in the game, farmed for him, finally maxed him and used his 4th for the first time, and they get 7 shadows. Imagine the face they make after finding that out and how their impression of Nekros would be. 

"Yep I'm just going to leave this frame in my arsenal for farming purpose."

 

I've used him in every defense mission in Void with my buddy, now it just feels so frustrated with this supposedly "buff".

[Soju.]

5 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

well hydroid's tentacle swarm caused/causes people problems 

so i dont see how nekros's minion army wouldnt cause even more issues as unlike the tentacle swarm nekros's minions are   fully programmed Ai rather than stationary objects 

Um, I'm pretty sure the AI they used is the same AI that the enemy AI used, they don't act special, all they do is follow you when there's no one to shoot at, like specters, there's nothing unique about their AI really.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

15 minutes ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

Whoever's entitled is dependent on whoever's perspectives.

 

If you can't see the reasons I just lay out to you then I guess I have nothing else to say to you.

If you can't handle 15 npcs being spawned in, then don't even play Survival, or Mobile Defense, or Defense, which is like, what, half the modes this game offer? And that's not to mention they are essential for farming parts to craft. So your reasoning is pretty senseless to me.

Problem being it's not 15 NPC, it's whatever the number of enemies alive + number of team mates + 15 per Nekros summoning them, plus the added effects that the shadows have that normal NPC don't.

 

The change was mostly a preventive step, because SotD isn't nearly as bad as people say now, and due to Desecrate being a toggle and not locking Nekros in place, it makes SotD a lot easier to use and easy to use both Desecrate and SotD at the same time (because Nekros can actually fight while using Desecrate now, so it makes his skill set a lot more usable), which will potentially increase the number of people using SotD (because almost no one did before the change, it wasn't common to get 2 Nekros in a single mission using it, but if they did, it wouldn't be pretty).


After the changes I actually got results from the shadows, they actually do their job, unlike before which only had them causing confusion, to both the enemy and the party members with all the mess clustered in small tiles and shadows soaking both enemy and team mates bullets.

SotD is one of those powers that is much like how people that don't know how WoF works describe it, "only 1 explosion per second", because they don't seem to notice all others are off screen, and that's pretty much what happens to SotD, it's results are mostly not seen.

 

All that SotD needs now is an icon that tells the HP of the shadow with the least HP.

Edited August 28, 2016 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[Vohim]

5 minutes ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

Um, I'm pretty sure the AI they used is the same AI that the enemy AI used, they don't act special, all they do is follow you when there's no one to shoot at, like specters, there's nothing unique about their AI really.

they do have to keep track of players as they  try to stay 10m  from the nekros at all times then theres the augment  as well as the player stat variables 

i have to  check the minion's hp drain with   corrupted mods because sure its 7 cap but  they have priorities and that could be 7 bombards  or  stuff like that 

try max power and duration and cephalon simaris's mod that gives 450 armor when picking up health orbs wich if im not mistaken stacks up to 3 times and forget the augment so   minions last longer

Edited August 28, 2016 by Retepzednem

[(PSN)salovel1991]

1 hour ago, (XB1)RAG is NAROK said:

Well, who knows. Perhaps they are working on it but perhaps due to the way the code is set up it is a difficult task.

---

Either way I would strongly suggest that when the next Devstream post comes up, we try to mention these improvements in the topic. Perhaps if they notice it, they will be willing to address it.

Problem is with that theory, the old model had no health decay. They had already programmed a model with no timer/health decay and show cased it in a Devstream. Since this rework I never use this ability. I used to be able to run shadows for an extended time with little sacrifice. Now I'm lucky to maintain 5 shadows. 

[Soju.]

15 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

Problem being it's not 15 NPC, it's whatever the number of enemies alive + number of team mates + 15 per Nekros summoning them, plus the added effects that the shadows have that normal NPC don't.

 

The change was mostly a preventive step, because SotD isn't nearly as bad as people say now, and due to Desecrate being a toggle and not locking Nekros in place, it makes SotD a lot easier to use and easy to use both Desecrate and SotD at the same time (because Nekros can actually fight while using Desecrate now, so it makes his skill set a lot more usable), which will potentially increase the number of people using SotD (because almost no one did before the change, it wasn't common to get 2 Nekros in a single mission using it, but if they did, it wouldn't be pretty).


After the changes I actually got results from the shadows, they actually do their job, unlike before which only had them causing confusion, to both the enemy and the party members with all the mess clustered in small tiles and shadows soaking both enemy and team mates bullets.

SotD is one of those powers that is much like how people that don't know how WoF works describe it, "only 1 explosion per second", because they don't seem to notice all others are off screen, and that's pretty much what happens to SotD, it's results are mostly not seen.

+15 per Nekros summoning them, that MIGHT be a problem, if you are in a team with 3+ Nekros, assuming all of them have the same build, all uses it at the same time, with the same mod ranks, etc. And that sounds like it might have a chance of happening in 1 out of 1000 times.

I'm not going to deny that all kind of FXs added don't have an impact on performance, but they are so unnoticeable that I might as well say none at all. The problem with this is, they tried to make him more "variable", instead of before, when you can't build for Desecrate AND SotD at the same time, now you "can", it's just that it's a so much S#&amp;&#036;tier Shadows of the Death, and the people who wants to primarily play StoD and not giving a crap about farming resources are screwed over <me>.

 

But I don't see this logic, if it increases the amount of people using StoD, then what's the point of nerfing StoD for "performance" purposes, so now if you have 2 Nek players in a squad, they'll probably constantly spamming 4th to get 7 shadows each, a total of 14 shadows, one less shadow than the original of one, but with the effects, AND the new texture they got instead of pitch black. So, what was the point? IF, performance was such a huge issue.

 

I really don't care much for Desecrating, people uses it primarily for farming, some can argue that it can be uses to get health orbs with the right mods (like Equilibrium and the like that make use of health orbs) but that also sacrifices your mod slots so it was never popular due to that.

 

"with all the mess clustered in small tiles and shadows soaking both enemy and team mates bullets."

This could have been easily fixed if they just made it so your teammates could shoot through your shadows, but nope, did they fix it ever since they release Nekros? Nope. And are you saying the shadows did not do their job prior to this "buff"? I don't know why you would say that, I ran with my buddy all the time in T4 def with me being the Nek and him being the Frost, I would cast Shadows every wave that last for over a minute, soak up enemies' bullets and distract them, this helps to improve his globe's longetivity, and we can do 2 man 40+ waves (and yes I am aware some of you hardcore people out there can do it solo, but for an average player I believe that is pretty hard, and we went through it easily, as long as we don't do stupid things). The Shadows nullifiers help a ton, the Shadows bombards also help a ton, as they knock enemies down, etc. I'm sure you get the point.

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

54 minutes ago, Xiusa said:

Yeah no man saying you had no issues with it being the way it was doesn't mean other people didn't. Saying whatever year it is or nearly is has nothing to do with anything. Some people can't afford an upgrade either, and even at low settings having someone summon around 15 new entities at once can simply slow your computer, crash the game, etc. Shadows scale with the enemies you kill to get them. Kill 7 at 3 mins in a survival, and if you manage to keep them up while maintaining their health, they will be those same shadows at 30 mins. Let them die, kill 7 more enemies, then summon a new horde. Plus, why are you expecting minions to be super powerful in the first place??? They're minions, not super secret bosses.

You likely by now have received a response along the lines of "it's been proven that the 7 shadow limit being implemented to help low end computers was a pile of lies, and it still cause lag"...

So I wont re rehash it.

But it's an ult.

Nobody cares what "minions" are capable of, or how powerful they are, this is a warframe ultimate. This is the best nekros has to offer in his kit and it's garbage. And the excuse for why it was limited is garbage.

The math and numbers that try to say the ability is just as strong as it used to be...Well.

7 shadows was nekros limit at 100% power strength before rework. So DE decided that was the number they would pick, and that they would "buff" the ability as if everyone had been running 100% power strength. These seven shadows are stronger than those seven shadows, therefore it is not a nerf and we don't have to pay attention to any feedback given.

Edited August 28, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
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