Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[zehne]

17 minutes ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

 but not with the cost of a massive nerf to pay for.

I don't see how:

• "To compensate for this, Nekros now spawns stronger Shadows prioritized by heavy unites killed with Shield multiplier and draw aggro more heavily." Is a MASSIVE nerf. 

You have fewer shadows, but they are going to be the better &#!-kickers. They also draw aggro better.  Yes you have fewer of them, but those fewer ones are better than the old, so you can't quantify it as "there are half as many".

[Eldritchsqueaker]

1 hour ago, zehne said:

I don't see how:

• "To compensate for this, Nekros now spawns stronger Shadows prioritized by heavy unites killed with Shield multiplier and draw aggro more heavily." Is a MASSIVE nerf. 

You have fewer shadows, but they are going to be the better &#!-kickers. They also draw aggro better.  Yes you have fewer of them, but those fewer ones are better than the old, so you can't quantify it as "there are half as many".

People have already said that doesn't make the new version an upgrade, between health decay, shield of shadows being split between fewer shadows and everything else they're also much squishier than before. I'd even argue that just the sheer amount of bodies from before already drew as much aggro just from there being so many. While there were some improvements, the health decay and high maintenane cost, and the reduced number all contribute to worsening the ability. The improvements they made with it just weren't enough to make up for the numbers then they threw in health decay on top of that.

[zehne]

1 minute ago, Eldritchkitty said:

People have already said that doesn't make the new version an upgrade, between health decay, shield of shadows being split between fewer shadows and everything else they're also much squishier than before. I'd even argue that just the sheer amount of bodies from before already drew as much aggro just from there being so many. While there were some improvements, the health decay and high maintenane cost, and the reduced number all contribute to worsening the ability. The improvements they made with it just weren't enough to make up for the numbers then they threw in health decay on top of that.

And I absolutely agree that the ability needs some tweaking.

But I don't think it should be reverted.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

On 27.8.2016 at 10:39 AM, Momaw said:

No, OP is talking about shadows of the dead.  They lose a percentage of their health each second which acts as the "duration" of the ability. This is a somewhat unpopular change because in the old system you could get the Shadows duration to be longer and they wouldn't lose health while active. Personally, I think people are overreacting. Yes, your shadows lose health now which hypothetically makes them weaker... But the game will also now automatically use the strongest shadows possible and you can fully heal them by recasting. So.  Net improvements in my book.

plus aggro, what makes them actually fight, which has been pretty occasional before...

 

stronger minions

minions who actually fight

different balancing which makes shadows on for example a creeping terrify build stronger...

 

definitly improvements? less health decay/no health decay at all still wouldn't hurt as sotd is and was still somewhat of a underwhelming ability by default and they did promise to do something about it.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Nekros is alongside Mag for me right now where I feel unsatisfied with the build I end up having for them after all the changes. 

[Soju.]

6 hours ago, zehne said:

I don't see how:

• "To compensate for this, Nekros now spawns stronger Shadows prioritized by heavy unites killed with Shield multiplier and draw aggro more heavily." Is a MASSIVE nerf. 

You have fewer shadows, but they are going to be the better &#!-kickers. They also draw aggro better.  Yes you have fewer of them, but those fewer ones are better than the old, so you can't quantify it as "there are half as many".

Stronger is a subjective word here. I'd take a whole horde consisted of Corpus Crewmen and Butchers and maybe some Nullifiers or Fusion/Corrupted Moas any day over 7 Bombards and Heavy Gunners, Bombards against a bunch of enemies is ineffective, especially when they're spread out, as his projectile flies slowly and they don't have a good rate of fire, never takes cover. Heavy Gunners have fast fire rate, sure, but from a long range they'll miss like @ss, and also, never takes cover. 

 

A Corpus Crewmen shadow on the other hand, has ridiculous damage for a mob (since shotgun buff), takes cover, same goes for Butchers. Fusion Moas can knock enemies down and stun them with fire attack and set them on fire 90% of the time, and the Ospreys released by the Fusion Moas are actually pretty op.

And guess what. I could have Bombards, Heavy Gunners, AND Corpus crewmen + Moas + butchers before, IN A HORDE OF 15+ SHADOWS. I always have 10 or more Crewmen or Butchers and the rest made up of Corrupted Ancients + Bombards + Heavy Gunners (I maxed my Strength so my Shadows hit the limit). So yes, I already have that, BEFORE this "buff", and more, and as someone mentioned above, Shadows are meant to be disposable, not meant to be babysit. I don't think you have played Nekros very much with his 4th.

Edited August 30, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[zehne]

So you want more damage bonus to the shadows?

Still don't see how that warrants rolling the ability back instead of buffing the damage multiplier.

[Soju.]

5 minutes ago, zehne said:

So you want more damage bonus to the shadows?

Still don't see how that warrants rolling the ability back instead of buffing the damage multiplier.

Where in my bloody comment did I say that?

Zehne, I think you need to go take a break and some fresh air then a nap.

Otherwise you'll keep pulling sh!t out of nowhere.

 

All I said was it is more beneficial to have MORE @(*()$ SHADOWS that have a MORE @(*()$ BALANCED COMPOSITION, which means GREATER @(*()$ OUTPUT.

 

It's funny to see people thinking 7 Shadows with bombards and heavy gunners is good. When Nekros had that, AND MORE, with more Shadows, back before the "buff", with longer duration and survivability and less headache from babysitting.

Edited August 30, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[Gurpgork]

10 minutes ago, zehne said:

Still don't see how that warrants rolling the ability back instead of buffing the damage multiplier.

Even if the damage multiplier were buffed to make the damage exactly equal to how it was before the change, it's still at a clear disadvantage to where it was before the change. It's simply better to have a bunch of units with low damage than a few units with high damage, assuming the two groups are overall on equal footing damage-wise. Sure, Warframes can be competitive with enemies while they're outnumbered by an insane margin, but enemy units don't have the same AoE capabilities that we do. Each Shadow can usually only attack one or maybe two or three enemies at a time, which means that being outnumbered is really, really bad news for them. 

[zehne]

I can't say enough how I think you're completely wrong about how strong the ability should be.

I just went solo into a heircon.  Using my 1 forma Nekros (not prime).  I killed enemies and summoned my shadows.  Next I did one extractor killing everything that came.  I then let my shadows die and started a new extractor.

I Used 0 abilities besides SoTD, I used 0 weapons.  I stood ontop the extractor and watched my shadows fight.  I completed the extractor successfully, my SoTD minions killed all the enemies neccesary for energy, and the ONLY thing I did was pick them up and turn them in. 

 

Now I can understand wanting a stronger ultimate, but SoTD is already capable of 'soloing' defense missions while you watch tv and press one button every ~~24 seconds.

(and my nekros had 3 empty mods slots at the time I did this)

EDIT:

To make it clear how strong SoTD already is, the ONLY mods that effected my SoTD at the time was Primed Continuity, Narrow Minded and Transient Fortitude.  Turns out that equilibrium, Quick thinking and Primed flow were unnecessary.  I was only touched several times and never took any hp damage despite only 270 shields due to the fact that the shadows held aggro.

EDIT:

Did this experiment again, this time: 2 empty mod slots, everything else was 'dedicated' to SoTD.

MISSION: Defend an extractor until it dies (no energy feeding)

MISSION: Failed; I gave up after 20 minutes, only having to press SoTD every ~~45 seconds (with no shadows dieing).

Edited August 30, 2016 by zehne

[Shougong]

击杀卓越者不计入击杀列表

然后无法召唤 

Excellence kill kill those who are not included in the list

Then can not call

[Matt89Connor]

On 28/8/2016 at 10:02 PM, Archwizard said:

On the plus side, I'm definitely enjoying Nekros more than before with the updates, now that the value of Desecrate spam has gone down and Shadow maintenance has gone up.

That being said:

• Shadows deteriorate far too quickly. Yes you can just spend 100 more energy to heal them back up, but their "unique" durational mechanic is tied to their combat survivability; it'd only work out if they mitigated or were completely immune to damage during this time, which they aren't. What Nekros needs at this point is an alternative way to restore them - a cheap way to slow down their deterioration, to encourage using his powers together rather than saving up to restore his shadows 10 seconds into the cast.
  I mean, it's that or just do what you said originally, and remove the duration entirely.
• Shadows are weaker on the whole than they were before. Yes we have weighted priorities and more control over them, but it all comes down to energy economy, which the changes to Shadows tanked. As others have mathed out above, all it requires is a bigger buff to damage and health - or better yet, base mitigation instead of health, since the deterioration will just scale up to eat through that health bonus anyway.
• Desecrate isn't frustrating to spam anymore, but that still doesn't mean it's a good ability. It presently has no particular interactions with Nekros' kit: Soul Punch doesn't fillet corpses into making more drops, both Soul Punch and Terrify scatter bodies, and Shadows can't pick up health orbs (which would otherwise be a flawless execution of the extension effect of the ultimate). The only contribution Desecrate makes is toward energy economy... if and only if you have Despoil.

the problem in desecrate is  perfect  only if the decay of the shadow wasn't3% base ...now we have to choose 1 of this power to build but alone this power how they are, not so great like other powers of anothers frame...every frame has his best power 1 or 2,but nekros dosen't have

[Matt89Connor]

when the DE understand that is a big mistake?

[Dragon-V0942]

Bumped, this post must not fade!

[Celas_]

39 minutes ago, Matt89Connor said:

Desecrate isn't frustrating to spam anymore, but that still doesn't mean it's a good ability.

Good Ability? They NERFED it down to 54% from 90% this is Good? not really to toggle a ability is not a reason to decreased his Chance. Nekros is my main so i think i know what i say, even in survival is it hard to survive because Nekros dont loot from the 54% something useful, NOOOOOOO he loot Health orbs everywhere. I can use other frames like Hydroid, Atlas and Ivara they do a better Job with 100% Loot Chance but i wont. I am one of the payer who bought Nekros Prime Access but i dont got a prime, i got a broken prime and i hope they fix it.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

On 8/23/2016 at 2:37 PM, Electrohead said:

Soo...Nekros Prime just got released without any changes made to him and SOTD. Fanboys are already spending their parents money (joke) and what do you guys think about it ? 

It all feels kinda "cheap" this time. With each new Prime we had a nice trailer week or so before the release to tease us, PBR to existing non-prime version of warframes and weapons and now all we got was a bunch of rather questionable changes to Nekros before he got primed. 

I was surprised that people still bought Nekros, despite his nerfs. It just proves DE is right. It really doesn't matter what they do. They could literally crap on a plate, and the fanboys would happily pay to eat it.  

DE doesn't need to listen to feedback because people are going to buy their crap no matter what anyway. Listening to feed back costs money and time, and time costs money. Why even bother when your fanbase has proven they will buy what you are selling even if you don't?

 

On 8/23/2016 at 2:44 PM, Ar0ndight said:

Sadly

Every.

Single.

Rework.

since Excal and Frost is left with issues. Nekros is the latest offense. We need DE to look at this.

Honestly, Frost wasn't too bad until they change the way Nullifiers affect Frost's bubble. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Nekros should just go back to spamming 3. 

[(PSN)salovel1991]

So it has been since August 10th aaaaaaaaaannnndd -drumroll- Absolutely zero changes. But it's all cool because as proof DE is in touch with their player base they made a few touch ups to Titania. How awesome is that? As it stands not a single thing has been said anywhere that supports the idea they will listen to any feedback at all. But you know it's cool because next Devstream if I see DE say "The changes have been generally well received" I may just jump to Neverwinter. I mean we aren't even being entirely unreasonable. This is the same Radial spin energy costs on Excalibur. I'm sorry if this is ranty. But on consoles our update was pushed out before it was fixed. We have glitches that say they were fixed in the patch notes. E.g., companions getting stuck under the lift in the liset, headless kavat, not being able to scan the Cephalon fragments in the derelict, and a plethora of other glitches. 

[F4talFr4me]

5 hours ago, ObjectM said:

Good Ability? They NERFED it down to 54% from 90% this is Good? not really to toggle a ability is not a reason to decreased his Chance. Nekros is my main so i think i know what i say, even in survival is it hard to survive because Nekros dont loot from the 54% something useful, NOOOOOOO he loot Health orbs everywhere. I can use other frames like Hydroid, Atlas and Ivara they do a better Job with 100% Loot Chance but i wont. I am one of the payer who bought Nekros Prime Access but i dont got a prime, i got a broken prime and i hope they fix it.

Maybe you should look at changes to frames before throwing money at bad decisions in the future? hope you learned your lesson and dont give them any more money from today anywards.

[Gurpgork]

5 hours ago, ObjectM said:

Good Ability? They NERFED it down to 54% from 90% this is Good?

They said it's not a good ability...

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

So, looks like nekros will be left as new bottom tier useless frame.

For minions you have atlas, maxed rumblers are very tanky and great at killing. For loot you have hydroid with pilfering swarm augment. I've been testing it recently, hydroid easily 4 times better than nekros at farming.

I'm still shocked. They took a bad warframe which had 1 loot ability that was a bit better /on par with other loot frames... And made it completely useless.

It's like saryn and mag. Except they've been made meh. Nekros is completely destroyed.

 

Seriously I don't understand thought process. Like, shadows are not good to begin with, what's the point of health decay? And desecrate... They made every single piece consume 10 energy base. And changed it from 90% loot drop with extra guaranteed health orb to 54% loot drop DILUTED with health orb drop.

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

4 hours ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

So it has been since August 10th aaaaaaaaaannnndd -drumroll- Absolutely zero changes. But it's all cool because as proof DE is in touch with their player base they made a few touch ups to Titania. How awesome is that? As it stands not a single thing has been said anywhere that supports the idea they will listen to any feedback at all. But you know it's cool because next Devstream if I see DE say "The changes have been generally well received" I may just jump to Neverwinter. I mean we aren't even being entirely unreasonable. This is the same Radial spin energy costs on Excalibur. I'm sorry if this is ranty. But on consoles our update was pushed out before it was fixed. We have glitches that say they were fixed in the patch notes. E.g., companions getting stuck under the lift in the liset, headless kavat, not being able to scan the Cephalon fragments in the derelict, and a plethora of other glitches. 

I'm still waiting on the derelect scan issue fix myself. But I don't expect anything to be done soon.

[(XBOX)SickWicked]

I'm a newer Nekros player only have really started to put time and effort into him a little before the Vauban PA. 

I always liked the idea of terrify but I dislike that you need to have the mod to make it actually useful in combat. Chasing them down because they seemed to run away at mock speeds once you terrified them, that was terrible... unless you needed all enemies in your immediate area to stop shooting at you quickly.  I use it more now that i have the augment mod I wish that was just a base part of the power.

Despite what the sheet numbers say about desecrate.. in actual use I feel like I get way more loot, in some cases twice as much when running with it turned on now. I have been trying to figure out why but in almost every farming situation I have done to to get resources, I have always walked away with much more than I would have ever gotten from old desecrate. They however need to up the health orbs a bit. I think DE made it a little too low.

The arguments made for old SoTD solidify what i hated most about 1.0.  I always felt that you need 12+ shadows because you needed to account for a percentage of the things you brought back to be trash and not doing anything but being a distraction.  I hated using the old ability and seeing a shield osprey.  Those damn things would spawn and then more often then not, fly away... who knows where it would go.

I like the lower number of SoTD 2.0 because they are less of a hindrance to my teammates when in a squad.  That is the one complaint I would get the most is that my shadows would make too hard to figure out what was going on and I would have people ask me to not cast it. The shadows also seam to be way more competent than 1.0. They actually kill more things and on top of it draw way more aggro. I also like that it does a much better job of spawning the better mobs you killed.

But enough praise... I do want to leave my feed back on SoTD as I like others feels like it has problems.

I like everyone else feel the health decay is way to fast. It needs to be reduced. I also think that 100 energy cost to sustain an ability already in use is too damn high.  I agree with my fellow commenters that while the ability is active that it should be at a much reduced cost with a % additional cost for each shadow that you have to resurrect up until your just casting to resurrect all 7. 

I would also like to see an on screen health bar for the two lowest health shadows. one for the purpose of keeping track of healing... and second because of the way that SoTD priorities what becomes your shadow now. I would like to see if the lowest health shadow is worth keeping around. If its loosing heath at a considerably faster rate than that of the other, It in my eyes usually means its a weaker enemy unit that I should just let die and respawn a much more powerful mob in its place or DE can just let me banish a shadow with soul punch.

Edited August 30, 2016 by (XB1)SickWicked

[(PSN)salovel1991]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Onyx Guarrd said:

I'm still waiting on the derelect scan issue fix myself. But I don't expect anything to be done soon.

Probably when we get The Silver Grove quest. I've noticed updates but nothing has been fixed. It's all broken af right now. 

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

Probably when we get The Silver Grove quest. I've noticed updates but nothing has been fixed. It's all broken af right now. 

yeah i figured a few months give or take as usual.

Edited August 30, 2016 by (XB1)Onyx Guarrd