Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[KaizergidorahXi]

I actually really like the new Nekros. I never really used him before the rework; He mostly sat in the dustbin with Hydroid and Wukong. But now I bring him on all my farming missions, even solo.

[CaustiCat]

Every video I saw on youtube, every post made on reddit or forums reviewing Nekros changes always mentions one thing specifically - excessive health drain on shadows. 

If DE is refusing to remove the health drain completely then it should be adjusted in one of two ways as I see it:

1) Make Shadows HP drain a stable 1% unaffected by any mods - This will let us free up some space by removing duration mods to make builds more versatile,
 

or

2) Make Shadows HP drain start at 1% as a base value and let it be still affected by duration mods as it is - This will allow us to extend the duration of SotD to be in more comfortable zone. 

Since the best possible scenario is rather unlikely to happen (hp drain removed) I think one of the above would be at least a slight sign that DE still at least tries to listen to the community feedback. 



Also it seems like upcoming update will contain next batch of TennoGen stuff. As much as I can't wait for the GVolt skin, I'm afraid it won't really make me spend any time playing Warframe if that's all they have planned for this week. 

[NightmareT12]

35 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

All I want is for the health drain on the Shadows to be gone, even if it means bringing back duration.

Actually duration is worse. Now even a Trinity can heal your shadows.

It's all down to adjusting the health drain so it's a bit less opressive.

[Fomiru]

I really enjoy Nekros how he is, with the right mod setup you are super tanky and provide a lot to a squad from the extra loot, health orbs, and not to mention that the enemies focus on the shadows.  Excavation, Defense, Mobile Defense...  All the enemies are more interested in killing my shadows than killing me, but more importantly, what I am actually defending.  

Putting some duration on Nekros to make the health decay not as bad is a part of his modding process now, that's all there is too it.  With Intensify and Power Drift you get 45% strength, which with shield of shadows gives a 61% damage reduction, combined with Health Conversion...  And you have a Warframe who is taking absolutely minimal damage.  Not to mention the additional positive modifiers from that much power strength.  

Nekros just needs to be modded differently now, and is a very powerful asset to any squad.  

[Snowbluff]

For what it's worth, I've been leveling my Nekros Prime, and SotD feels like such garbage now. The draining health means a lot more baby sitting and head checks to make sure nothing is about to fall over and require a longer casting time.

We should have some kind of UI indicator for tracking the HP of our shadows so I don't have to keep targeting my own shadows to know what their HP is. Even if they remove the decay I would want this.

[Snowbluff]

Can we get a UI element for tracking Shadow hp? If you're going to make us babysit I'd rather not have to spend so much time checking out the HP of my fatally ill geriatrics, thanks.

[CaustiCat]

4 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

For what it's worth, I've been leveling my Nekros Prime, and SotD feels like such garbage now. The draining health means a lot more baby sitting and head checks to make sure nothing is about to fall over and require a longer casting time.

We should have some kind of UI indicator for tracking the HP of our shadows so I don't have to keep targeting my own shadows to know what their HP is. Even if they remove the decay I would want this.

Yeah that's another issue that got me killed more than a few times already. Facing a large group of high lvl enemies with my shadows up and then just *poof* 4 out of 7 dropped dead, my damage reduction went down and I got killed because I wasn't "baby sitting" them like You perfectly described it. 

It has the same problem as Rhino's Iron Skin before DE actually updated the skill to display how much armor You have left. 

[Snowbluff]

6 minutes ago, Electrohead said:

Yeah that's another issue that got me killed more than a few times already. Facing a large group of high lvl enemies with my shadows up and then just *poof* 4 out of 7 dropped dead, my damage reduction went down and I got killed because I wasn't "baby sitting" them like You perfectly described it. 

It has the same problem as Rhino's Iron Skin before DE actually updated the skill to display how much armor You have left. 

*poof* has it right.

Would the Shadows need such a large HP boost if we remove the health decay? Shouldn't the rigors of combat already put a limit on how long a Shadow be out? If there was a smaller HP boost and no decay the shadows would stay up in between fights, regardless of the length of pauses.

Another simple fix would be to make Hp decay based on base (before SotD buffs) HP, so the larger health bars would mean longer duration, and power would increase their lifespans as well.

[KirukaChan]

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

Actually duration is worse. Now even a Trinity can heal your shadows.

It's all down to adjusting the health drain so it's a bit less opressive.

Sure, Trinity can heal the Shadows. However, solo (or partnered with Frames that don't heal), with neutral power duration, the health drain version lasts for only 3 seconds longer than the duration version. When you factor in enemies shooting or clawing at them all the time, though, they won't last nearly that long.

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Sure, Trinity can heal the Shadows. However, solo (or partnered with Frames that don't heal), with neutral power duration, the health drain version lasts for only 3 seconds longer than the duration version. When you factor in enemies shooting or clawing at them all the time, though, they won't last nearly that long.

Hence what I said, adjsuting the Health Drain. I meant base Health Drain, not our modded versions.

[(PSN)Asdeft]

On 8/20/2016 at 4:38 AM, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

   P. Flow, P. Continuity, Health Conversion, Creeping Terrify, Equilibrium, Vitality, Intensify, Despoil, Rejuvenation, and an exilus mod of whatever. 

I see everyone using Equilibrium, is it really any good? Zenurik covers most energy problems for me and getting health from energy is inconsequential. There has to be something I am missing there, since I use Streamline over it and I am wondering if it is better. 

[PsychoticMarik]

Can we please stop pussy footing around in our feedback posts about reducing health decay rates and just flat out keep asking for its removal?

I mean seriously. lessening the decay rate obviously makes things better but it still keeps that anti fun mechanic in tact, and it adds literally nothing to the gameplay other than tedious irritation.

Lets not forget DE lied to us and said it would no longer need duration, so lets stop trying to compromise with them on this crap. Just remove the shadows health decay.

Not like the power could hold a candle to half the other abilities in this game even if they had no health decay, and still had numbers around 20 like before. We have zero reason to tolerate this bs on a mediocre ultimate to begin with.

Honestly consider the sheer amount of power most abilities get in a simple cast, and then compare that to how much crap we have to put up with on this ability and try to justify it.

[Rhaenxys]

One little thing, after playing today sortie with eximus stronghold condition i notice how punished is nekros by not being able to summon eximus units, a good change would be to summon the regular version of eximus units, i.e eximus ancient healer = regular ancient healer.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

16 hours ago, The-Matrix said:

SotD :

_ 13 less summons  than before (maxed) so less agro, less protection around you, less diversity in undead abilities===> increase the number of summons available (not 20 but at least 5 more)

This is actually false. Despite having less shadows they actually draw more agro than before, it's one of the buffs to the ability, enemies now will be agro'ed  towards the shadows a lot more.

However, if an enemy shoots from far towards your group, then yes, it's possible that you will be damaged because there aren't a million shadows covering everyone's LoS, but this is not related to agro.

6 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

Decrease Max Health drain from 3% to 2%: This is a straight buff to duration of shadows, yes. This means that they should be able to last quite some more without much problem. It's also keeping the drawback off building up to 300% Strength, to avoid the "Bladestorm Ash" case. DE seems to not want people to use this kind of builds without people having some serious tradeoffs, and I have to agree there.

A bit too much. That's 50 seconds at base, if anything 2.5% would be plenty (40 seconds base without receiving damage) and I'd agree with that. Fun fact, current SotD actually has 3 more seconds of duration (not damaged) at base comparing with before, which certainly isn't enough to compensate for how duration now is decreased with damage (despite that recast fixes that but it's never taken in account because reasons. The cost of the recast isn't even that bad in most builds, and Desecrate being a toggle now can help with that but that depends on your luck, so 40 seconds at base would be plenty even if Shadows took damage to get enough energy for a recast).

 

6 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

 Add 0.5 more to each multiplier: That means we'd have 3x damage and 2.5 Health and 2.5 Shields for our summoned shadows. It's a slight buff that should not really make things too wonky. Also, remember we lost the ability to have more than 7 possible shadows. So each current one's effectively taking more damage than before due less minions.

This change would not compensate for a loss, it would compensate the base when the base did not lose anything, modded SotD lost shadows, the base didn't (and the base already got several buffs, including shields multiplier and summon priority). The multiplier buff should be applied when modded, which honestly doesn't quite work right, but then that's when it's an actual compensation, you only lost things when it's modded. Shadows now die faster not because of their "decreased" number but because they draw agro now (not by just being a target but by actually having an agro feature).

Now, Nekros for me, right now is whole lot better than before. Desecrate being a toggle means it just works no matter which build you use, just turn it on and forget while reaping the results. SotD despite having less shadows actually does a much better job at drawing agro, I used a SotD build before and despite having more shadows I was attacked most of the time, the shadows would mostly only help me by blocking the enemy LoS which isn't reliable as it blocks mine as well, while current shadows actually have a draw agro feature and it works really well.

I went to test my build yesterday on the moon survival, and while I didn't really do well on the first run (well, more than 30 minutes was enough for testing) because I forgot to change loadout, meaning I couldn't kill the Sentient fast enough, which then I changed my elements and got a proper set going... Well, I lasted one hour, and it was the easiest moon survival I had. I've done it on solo with other frames to see how they can handle it since the Sentient turn the tables there and it gets harder than other places like the void (I actually find void pretty easy in survival), and the new Nekros was the best result I got there without even that much effort and I only got out because my weapons no longer could kill Corpus techs fast enough, but it was easy to survive when my shadows would draw all the agro and then I was killing the enemy while healing my shadows and with Desecrate dropping life support and orbs (and my build isn't a despoil build, not the one I was using). However, you can summon Sentients yourself, and they completely ruin the enemy because of how high their damage is (which makes me wonder if their damage is attached to their arms and not to their main body's level, because if you try to fight a level 1 Sentient and let it hit you, you will notice how high their damage is, even at level 1 they can kill you really fast).

Overall, a lot better than before, being able to use desecrate while contributing and killing things makes him a million times better. Certainly can hold his own in combat a lot better and keep up with other frames without just being that one that hides in the corner throwing his mixtape.

 

From every run I've done before after the changes, my feedback in things that could use some changes or improvements are:

• A slight decrease in HP decay would be fine, 2.5% would be plenty
• An icon telling us the HP of the shadow with the least HP would be good, so we can manage the shadows better as right now we tend to get the wrong timing when recasting, giving the impression they are dying faster than before when many times we didn't even see the HP of the shadows
• An increase to the list of enemies that we killed, 10 more would be nice, 20 more would be amazing. Just 20 with the priority system just isn't enough, 20 will always end up being mostly trash mobs, so we end up doing the same thing as before, select our targets and not actively killing, 30~40 would be good without being broken
• Like someone that I didn't see the name suggested somewhere I forget, let us use soul punch to delete active shadows that we do not want to be active, however, I understand that this would suck for some people, because you could soul punch a good shadow by mistake as it ran past your crosshair, however we do have the hold mechanic now, that would work fine, hold on shadow to delete it, maybe drop a health orb as a compensation for the energy lost, 25 HP isn't that much to allow people to exploit this anyway
• Adjust the shadows AI to try to not completely leave you. They tend to just keep running after enemies, at some point they just get really fast, having a range where they would give up chasing the enemy and kept "close" to you would be good, since many times it forces you to recast SotD too early because a few shadows decided to just leave you and go elsewhere

Edited August 31, 2016 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[PsychoticMarik]

20 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

A bit too much. That's 50 seconds at base, if anything 2.5% would be plenty (40 seconds base without receiving damage) and I'd agree with that. Fun fact, current SotD actually has 3 more seconds of duration (not damaged) at base comparing with before, which certainly isn't enough to compensate for how duration now is decreased with damage (despite that recast fixes that but it's never taken in account because reasons. The cost of the recast isn't even that bad in most builds, and Desecrate being a toggle now can help with that but that depends on your luck, so 40 seconds at base would be plenty even if Shadows took damage to get enough energy for a recast).

Why shouldn't the Necromancer warframe have a much higher base(frankly it shouldn't have any at all)than Atlas and his rumblers? Which are at 45 base, with no health decay and will never die before the duration ends unless they charge into a nullifier?

Nekros has to do more to get less. We have to slay the targets before summoning them, and then expend constant energy(that doesn't adjust)if we want to keep them going. We have no UI indication of their health or positions(Atlas does have waypoints on his)and with the health decay its a babysitting job. Not to mention units with less hp decay faster so if you want to keep them around you have to waste even more energy more often. Which also doesnt take into account hp they lose while getting attacked.

Compare all this to Atlas who can just fire and forget with minions that are frankly just as good if not more so than Nekros now just because he doesn't have to babysit them. With even longer duration's. He's also tanky by default with no need for an augment like shield of shadows.

Why is the closest thing we have to a minion master not allowed to be as fun as he should be? Nothing about no health decay would be unbalanced. Especially not in this game.

Help advocate for a more enjoyable character who would fulfill a position completely unique in this game(an actual minion master), that frankly most other games never offer. Its an ultimate ability and the signature of the necromancer theme. Let us have it actually feel that way...because right now health decay is ruining the fun in playing Nekros. Atlas is a better minion master than our necromancer. How is that not a problem?

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by PsychoticMarik

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

2 minutes ago, PsychoticMarik said:

Why shouldn't the Necromancer warframe have a much higher base(frankly it shouldn't have any at all)than Atlas and his rumblers? Which are at 45 base, with no health decay and will never die before the duration ends unless they charge into a nullifier?

Nekros has to do more to get less. We have to slay the targets before summoning them, and then expend constant energy(that doesn't adjust)if we want to keep them going. We have no UI indication of their health or positions(Atlas does have waypoints on his)and with the health decay its a babysitting job. Not to mention units with less hp decay faster so if you want to keep them around you have to waste even more energy more often. Which also doesnt take into account hp they lose while getting attacked.

Compare all this to atlas who can just fire and forget with minions that are frankly just as good if not more so than Nekros now just because he doesn't have to babysit them. With even longer duration's. He's also tanky be default with no need for an augment like shield of shadows.

Why is the closest thing we have to a minion master not allowed to be as fun as he should be? Nothing about no health decay would be unbalanced. Especially not in this game.

Help advocate for a more enjoyable character who would fulfill a position completely unique in this game(an actual minion master), that frankly most other games never offer. Its an ultimate ability and the signature of the necromancer theme. Let us have it actually feel that way...because right now Atlas is a better minion master than our necromancer. How is that not a problem?

 

The problem is thinking that Atlas and -insert enemy here- are the same, which then yes, it makes Atlas look better.

But in the end, both do their job rather well. Nekros has disadvantages and advantages, and this babysitting isn't just babysitting as people call it, because by the end of the day, both Nekros and Atlas are "babysitting", the difference is that Nekros can hold to the shadows instead of getting new ones, and this is a very good tool. Has less overall duration? A disadvantage to an advantage, that's how diversity and balance are done, and Nekros isn't as bad as people cry about.

Nekros does do his job well by turning his enemies against themselves, the babysitting just improves it (and like I said, 40 seconds is plenty when you can hold to your shadows, if you couldn't do so, then yes, 50 would be fine). While Atlas has his rumblers which are nice, despite that they are terrible at drawing agro without the augment and suffer at high levels, Nekros has the power of variety instead. Got melee units? They will rush the enemy. Got ranged units? They are a good help against nullifiers. Got a Nullifier? You got a unit that draws agro and shields you. Got a Bombard? You got an AoE blast unit that knocks down enemies. Got an ancient healer? You just got free heals and damage reduction and status effect immunity without even having the augment. Got a Hyekka master? You just got an unit that sets enemies on fire and a bunch of cats that will fight for you even when the Hyekka master is dead (same for dog master, except he's weaker). And then every unit draws agro a lot more than rumblers do. You have less duration than Atlas? So what, you can get much bigger advantages than his rumblers, and if you got a good shadow squad you can just keep them alive.
Not every frame needs to have the same stats to be as viable, Nekros even with 33 seconds at base is perfectly viable. 40 seconds would be plenty, because honestly with all the advantages that his shadows offer, it's only fair that he has to spend some energy once in a while to keep them up, press and forget is a terrible thing to have in the game, which sadly we already have plenty.

But if you really believe that Atlas would be better by just having 5 more seconds or is better the current 15 seconds at base, then there's no changing your mind and no point in going any further with this. But again, balance isn't about having the same exact things, it's to have the advantages and disadvantages that balance everyone in a way that they are different yet competitive with each others in a nearly equal step. Which is the case here, Nekros has his advantages and disadvantages, Atlas the same thing, but if you can only look at the disadvantages of a character and then compare with the advantages of another, then one will always be worse.

[NightmareT12]

28 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

A bit too much. That's 50 seconds at base, if anything 2.5% would be plenty (40 seconds base without receiving damage) and I'd agree with that. Fun fact, current SotD actually has 3 more seconds of duration (not damaged) at base comparing with before, which certainly isn't enough to compensate for how duration now is decreased with damage (despite that recast fixes that but it's never taken in account because reasons. The cost of the recast isn't even that bad in most builds, and Desecrate being a toggle now can help with that but that depends on your luck, so 40 seconds at base would be plenty even if Shadows took damage to get enough energy for a recast).

 

This change would not compensate for a loss, it would compensate the base when the base did not lose anything, modded SotD lost shadows, the base didn't (and the base already got several buffs, including shields multiplier and summon priority). The multiplier buff should be applied when modded, which honestly doesn't quite work right, but then that's when it's an actual compensation, you only lost things when it's modded. Shadows now die faster not because of their "decreased" number but because they draw agro now (not by just being a target but by actually having an agro feature).

[...]

From every run I've done before after the changes, my feedback in things that could use some changes or improvements are:

• A slight decrease in HP decay would be fine, 2.5% would be plenty
• An icon telling us the HP of the shadow with the least HP would be good, so we can manage the shadows better as right now we tend to get the wrong timing when recasting, giving the impression they are dying faster than before when many times we didn't even see the HP of the shadows
• An increase to the list of enemies that we killed, 10 more would be nice, 20 more would be amazing. Just 20 with the priority system just isn't enough, 20 will always end up being mostly trash mobs, so we end up doing the same thing as before, select our targets and not actively killing, 30~40 would be good without being broken
• Like someone that I didn't see the name suggested somewhere I forget, let us use soul punch to delete active shadows that we do not want to be active, however, I understand that this would suck for some people, because you could soul punch a good shadow by mistake as it ran past your crosshair, however we do have the hold mechanic now, that would work fine, hold on shadow to delete it, maybe drop a health orb as a compensation for the energy lost, 25 HP isn't that much to allow people to exploit this anyway
• Adjust the shadows AI to try to not completely leave you. They tend to just keep running after enemies, at some point they just get really fast, having a range where they would give up chasing the enemy and kept "close" to you would be good, since many times it forces you to recast SotD too early because a few shadows decided to just leave you and go elsewhere

Per points!

Health Decay: Yeah, I also considered that 2.5% could be quite enough, but I was really worried that in higher level/stress situations it wouldn't end up as well. Maybe the sweet point would be 2.25% honestly. But I don't know if DE wants to add non-round numbers for the abilities?

Base multipliers: Yeah. The point was that if for some reason the shadows weren't really lasting that long, the health could be higher to compensate a bit more. I overdid that one honestly :P But I'd be a bit stranged it had to be included. And even moreso if the last suggestion had to make it in. Would be really worrying.

On the rest: I agree we should have some kind of indicator on the screen, but how do we do that effectively? It's 7 shadows, each with their own different healths, so it'd be messy.

The Soul Punch one I'm not a fan of, because of the reason you described. Some people are already having issues confusing the shadows with enemies, imagine the chaos XD

AI adjustments are always welcome, so more power to us! As for minion recording, I think I've seen a severe lack of Shield Ospreys in my summons. So it could be good.

PS: Yes, I experimented first hand allied Sentients. I wasn't even expecting Sentients to be able to be resurrected. Da power.

23 minutes ago, PsychoticMarik said:

Why shouldn't the Necromancer warframe have a much higher base(frankly it shouldn't have any at all)than Atlas and his rumblers? Which are at 45 base, with no health decay and will never die before the duration ends unless they charge into a nullifier?

Nekros has to do more to get less. We have to slay the targets before summoning them, and then expend constant energy(that doesn't adjust)if we want to keep them going. We have no UI indication of their health or positions(Atlas does have waypoints on his)and with the health decay its a babysitting job. Not to mention units with less hp decay faster so if you want to keep them around you have to waste even more energy more often. Which also doesnt take into account hp they lose while getting attacked.

Compare all this to atlas who can just fire and forget with minions that are frankly just as good if not more so than Nekros now just because he doesn't have to babysit them. With even longer duration's. He's also tanky by default with no need for an augment like shield of shadows.

Why is the closest thing we have to a minion master not allowed to be as fun as he should be? Nothing about no health decay would be unbalanced. Especially not in this game.

Help advocate for a more enjoyable character who would fulfill a position completely unique in this game(an actual minion master), that frankly most other games never offer. Its an ultimate ability and the signature of the necromancer theme. Let us have it actually feel that way...because right now Atlas is a better minion master than our necromancer. How is that not a problem?

 

If you notice however, we'd be able to pour all the Power Strength possible to Nekros and scrap really, REALLY hard the only single ability that uses duration then: Terrify. Besides Ash, if I'm not mistaken any other frame is able to do that. Perhaps you could count Frost, but you'd be losing some heavy CC.

[F4talFr4me]

God_is_a_DEemployee.

How much they paying you? desecrate is "fine" you say? not in my books. a hard nerf is a hard nerf. to a frame that dident need it.

Nice try DE.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

Per points!

Health Decay: Yeah, I also considered that 2.5% could be quite enough, but I was really worried that in higher level/stress situations it wouldn't end up as well. Maybe the sweet point would be 2.25% honestly. But I don't know if DE wants to add non-round numbers for the abilities?

Base multipliers: Yeah. The point was that if for some reason the shadows weren't really lasting that long, the health could be higher to compensate a bit more. I overdid that one honestly :P But I'd be a bit stranged it had to be included. And even moreso if the last suggestion had to make it in. Would be really worrying.

On the rest: I agree we should have some kind of indicator on the screen, but how do we do that effectively? It's 7 shadows, each with their own different healths, so it'd be messy.

The Soul Punch one I'm not a fan of, because of the reason you described. Some people are already having issues confusing the shadows with enemies, imagine the chaos XD

AI adjustments are always welcome, so more power to us! As for minion recording, I think I've seen a severe lack of Shield Ospreys in my summons. So it could be good.

PS: Yes, I experimented first hand allied Sentients. I wasn't even expecting Sentients to be able to be resurrected. Da power.

Hmmm... The thing is, the shadows Agro right now is so strong that you can actually manage the shadows very well even when there's tons of enemies around you, and even if you lose a shadow usually it's a weak shadow and many times you get a much stronger shadow instead. If you just increase the overall duration too much it ends up making other frames much less attractive, well, mostly Atlas, which honestly considering all the advantages that Nekros gets now, Atlas does needs that duration to keep up since he's a rather offensive frame (despite having a defensive and CC ability, his set is about staying up in the front, defensive just enhances his offence). But a slight increase I'm fine and agree with, just finding 2% a bit too much, that's all.

 

Well, actually increasing the health multiplier in the base isn't a bad thing, but I'd leave other multipliers to increase more with modding instead like before, because since the HP drain is a thing and the shadows are bound to die, a slightly bigger HP multiplier would let them last a bit longer when damaged which is fine since again, they are bound to die or lose HP anyway.

 

The icon like I said, would only show the HP of the shadow with the least HP, this way you only have 1 icon and little information that actually matters, because usually you want to keep all shadows alive with the recast, so if you know the HP of the shadow with the least HP you know when you need to press 4 to keep them all alive.

The soul punch thing, again like I said, it's easy to click on a shadow and you would lose a shadow by mistake, which is why I said to use the hold mechanic instead, because you don't hold the ability key to use soul punch on enemies, so you would only hold the key when you wanted a specific shadow to go away, leading to not losing shadows by mistake as tapping wouldn't work to delete the shadows. Tap = regular soul punch, nothing happens to shadows, hold on shadow = shadow is deleted when the hold thing is fully done.

 

Quote

God_is_a_DEemployee.

How much they paying you? desecrate is "fine" you say? not in my books. a hard nerf is a hard nerf. to a frame that dident need it.

Nice try DE.

I didn't even comment on the Desecrate % so, yeah, it was nerfed, nothing else to say about it. I honestly don't care if it got nerfed, I still get enough HP and ammo from it, less mats/mods? Does it really need to just be a farming frame? Still, I can see why the nerf happened, it doesn't mean it's alright as it is. Before it was efficient when desecrating great quantities of corpses with a single cast, but very inefficient when desecrating very small amounts of corpses, because in case people doesn't remember, Desecrate didn't have a 100% chance to work and many corpses needed multiple casts until RNG got them desecrated, a good quantity of corpses wouldn't even be desecrated until they despawned, and the whole process required you to be sitting in the same place, and it was only good if you had a good team doing all the killing, so the high chance of drops was a good bonus for the things you had to do and couldn't do. At the very least you had to macro it, now you don't even need that.

 

Now you get a 100% desecrate chance per corpse and energy is only consumed when the corpse is desecrated, in the case of many corpses in the same place, it uses more energy than before, but when there aren't as many, it's more efficient than before while you can more around and kill things yourself, meaning you contribute to kill things faster, meaning more corpses in the long run, and you also have the advantage of being able to do anything instead of being stuck in the same place, so for me the nerf isn't exactly terrible, it's a way to balance things comparing with before. Now, it's low when you want to farm mats/mods, that I can somewhat agree, but then again, I don't find loot abilities necessarily a good thing for the game.


Just because I don't join hate crusades and enjoy things to be well contained and balanced, you get something you lose something, it doesn't mean I lick someone's feet, because in case you didn't read, I did comment on the things that I find "not alright". But if you wish to give feedback, you can just post your arguments, that's how it's done, but by being disrespectful and trying to dismiss someone's opinion and arguments in the matter without having any thing to counter them.

You get advantages and you get disadvantages to balance things out and this is true even when comparing "loot abilities". But I wish someone paid me, maybe I wouldn't be stuck with a potato, crap internet and a 4:3 monitor. And yet I'm still saying where things are wrong, just not making doomsday scenarios, at least I'm posting arguments not witch hunts. ┐(0Ɛ0)┌

Edited August 31, 2016 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[Celas_]

54 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

Now, Nekros for me, right now is whole lot better than before. Desecrate being a toggle means it just works no matter which build you use

This is a joke right? Desecrate is better? NO its not better 54% and in this stupid 54% are Health Orbs included. If you desecrate you only get Health Orbs but no more loot like ressources, Mods etc. what you need. They should take out Health Orbs and increase the chance to 90% back or make Desecrate scaling with Power Strength. Desecrate is not good its Nerfed to Death and DE stole his Title "Looterking". They should changed his Description to "Health Orb Machine" sry that i am raging but its so sad to broke a Frame who was perfect, a frame who was my main. Toggle a ability is no reason to nerf the stats.

[CaustiCat]

Aaaaaand another update dropped and nothing for Nekros ofc. Seems like it will stay like this guys. We can all throw our "precious" feedback to the trash...again...

[BulletsforTeeth]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Asdeft said:

I see everyone using Equilibrium, is it really any good? Zenurik covers most energy problems for me and getting health from energy is inconsequential. There has to be something I am missing there, since I use Streamline over it and I am wondering if it is better. 

Think about it. Despoil means a contant health drain, and a surplus (with any luck) of health orbs. Every time you pick one of those up, you get more energy to recast SotD.

Suffice to say I've been soloing Lepanties a lot.

[The-Matrix]

Dear God_is_a_Cat_Girl,

 

first thank you for your investment, you seem to be well versed into the game (no sarcasm at all) but imo i cant even see how 7 summons can compete vs 14 (average number) summons. Before i could have so many ancients healers, etc who could allow me to tank a lot more than these poors 7 mobs even if these are even more targetted than they were before simply because i had a wall which protected me vs melee or ranged damage. 

As you said ranged damage are a pain in the &#! since 3 faction between 4 got a lot of this kind of ennemies. Prior this update several  T4 corrupted heavy rocket launcher (for exemple) could hardly wound Nekros badly (w/o being invincible too) now he cant tank that much (he remains decent though) as he used to be. I never considered Nekros as a top tier warframe ( he was very close imo) but he could still do very well for high end mission. Not saying today he is trash because it would be wrong but i still think he is less effective than he was before (less loot and less tanky).

 

Therefore i considerthis "rework" as a nerf and not a straight upgrade

 

Anyway, thank you again for your investment, ppl like you make this game a lot better

 

ps : sorry for the bad typo

Edited August 31, 2016 by The-Matrix

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

6 minutes ago, The-Matrix said:

Dear God_is_a_Cat_Girl,

 

first thank you for your investment, you seem to be well versed into the game (no sarcasm at all) but imo i cant even see how 7 summons can compete vs 14 (average number) summons. Before i could have so many ancients healers, etc who could allow me to tank a lot more than these poors 7 mobs even if these are even more targetted than they were before simply because i had a wall which protected me vs melee or ranged damage. 

As you said ranged damage are a pain in the &#! since 3 faction between 4 got a lot of this kind of ennemies. Prior this update several  T4 corrupted heavy rocket launcher (for exemple) could hardly wound Nekros badly (w/o being invincible too) now he cant tank that much (he remains decent though) as he used to be. I never considered Nekros as a top tier warframe ( he was very close imo) but he could still do very well for high end mission. Not saying today he is trash because it would be wrong but i still think he is less effective than he was before (less loot and less tanky).

 

Therefore i considerthis "rework" as a nerf and not a straight upgrade

 

Anyway, thank you again for your investment, ppl like you make this game a lot better

 

ps : sorry for the bad typo

Numbers can't compete, but the additions to the shadows did make it so even with just 7 shadows they are still reliable. For example, when the shadows spread a part and you had very little shadows to block bullets (which is what would happen as duration kept going), they wouldn't draw enough agro so you had a constant need to either stay behind a shadow or tank, now even if you only have 1 or 2 shadows near you, those will agro very well still as they have the agro feature now, and the other shadows away from you will prevent enemies from getting near you by drawing the enemies to them (while before shadows further away wouldn't keep all enemies away from you and most would still rush you unless you weren't in the same tile or had lots of obstacles hiding you from view). But yes, it's hard to compete with less numbers but that doesn't mean the shadows aren't reliable because they are very reliable now even with less, which alleviates the "nerf" quite a lot (just not as much in paper, but in practice the change is very big, enemies really focus on the shadows a lot more).

Not saying that numbers isn't a nerf, still they had the decency to try to alleviate it, and IMO they did pretty well in increasing the agro from the shadows, it's really great, at the very least they added things that overall improved the way shadows work despite the number nerf.


Now about Nekros tanking... Honestly it just changed how you build him for that, or rather, perhaps it's not as easy to reach the cap, but still, the shadows drawing agro makes it so he doesn't need to tank as much (even on the moon I rarely lose HP to regular mobs until level 100+, mostly only Sentient could damage me enough to reach my HP, and I only get 82% damage reduction with my build). Though post rework Nekros offers better control over his damage reduction by teleporting the shadows to him (this was an issue for me before, even with all the shadows I'd very easily lose damage reduction because moving around in a tile and the shadows themselves moving away made it so some would get outside of range through the rest of the duration), making it more reliable, and healing the shadows leads to no down times on the damage reduction (while before they would die and you had to do a full recast to get the reduction back which led to down times).

 

I'd say that right now he's different enough from before where it's not just a nerf or a small change, he's still Nekros but a lot different from before, where everything works very well to keep him alive even if each individual thing has lost something. You lose shadows and easier access to damage reduction cap but got better agro which helps getting hit less and so decreasing the need to tank hits. Shadows can die faster now but you can now teleport them to you and keep them alive instead of losing a good shadow squad and have to farm strong enemies or just summon the last 1X enemies you killed. And so on. Well, that's reworks are about, they aren't really just buffs, they are actual changes, for worse or better. Nekros mechanically changed, not just his numbers.

What I'm finding is that despite that it looks like a nerf on paper, everything actually works so well together in practice that he's actually very good now (and yes, still worse for loot). I mean, he's still the only frame that let me easily get up to 1 hour in moon survival on solo, because enemies either wouldn't attack me or even when they did only a small few did so I could tank it all just fine.
 

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Sad if there are no changes. I was really hype for nekros prime and he's going to probably just sit in my inventory rather than be something I pulled out routinely since I loved his look and liked having an army of undead running around. I could deal with just 7 of them but with how quickly they can get picked off in combination of their health degrading, it simply wasn't fun to play that aspect of him and was reduced to just getting the most I could out of his desecrate and having to be satisfied with that after pouring forma into him. I keep trying to make my favorite ability of his work but it's just not fun managing it.