Fix Trinity

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

14 minutes ago, Insizer said:

• Zenurik Focus' Energy Overflow: max: 4 energy/s
• Energy Siphon: max: 0.6 energy/s

6.4 regen a second at all times no matter what is very significant.

. . . if you don't even know what a pie is then this is a waste of time.

[Insizer]

5 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

6.4 regen a second at all times no matter what is very significant.

. . . if you don't even know what a pie is then this is a waste of time.

Forgive me for not understanding your lexicon. I figured out what you meant afterwards. Frankly, I've never heard it called a pie, only pads.

And yes, 6.4 energy/s is significant, but not as much as 299 energy/s (or anything between 40 and 299). However, a competent EV Trinity keeps EV going so often that it's effects are basically constant, or at least is capable of doing so. Acting as if 6.4 energy/s is even comparable with 299/4s is ridiculous. One provides a passive regen (granted it is large), the other completely fills tanks of both the caster and their allies. So excuse me for wasting your time with an actual argument, I figured that you could make one as well. Perhaps I should have waved you off just as you seem to do. I'd honestly like to debate with you on this, but if you're not even going to defend your position then I don't see much of a point.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Insizer
added more salt

[ScribbleClash]

23 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Forgive me for not understanding your lexicon. I figured out what you meant afterwards. Frankly, I've never heard it called a pie, only pads.

You better be sorry, after all I've heard this guy use it in this thread here so far! Must be everyone using that term!
Frankly, from what I've read, OP just wants to push their agenda.

IMO Trinity is in a fine place and mapwide heals have been a thorne in the communities side WAY before Trinity Prime. The whole implication that it started just then is simply ridiculous. As long as blessing was like it used to be, other heals were completly pointless. The current state of it is decent, yet still far outperforming other heals. Although I believe now we have to bring other heals up to par.

[Chewarette]

13 hours ago, Trichouette said:

I guess it's very hard to use EV on an enemy and kill him.

Or even better, play a trinity that can actually bless AND ev

Finally

I keep my trini at 100% duration and I have no problem keeping mates full energy/shields/perma blessing with Trini simply because I know how to cast EV on a low-HP target so that the full energy is released at once.

Infinite range on blessing is bullS#&$. Is it so hard in this game to stay in 50/62m range ?

If you're doing low level survival and want to kill everything by yourself, that's safe to assume you don't need the trinity. If you're on a squishy frame / you suck / you have a crappy computer / you want to do 40hours survival, then just stick with your Trini ? She won't kill your targets anyway, that's not her job.

Seems like people are just completely lazy these days. Don't know if it's the new gamers generation that want everything without doing anything and without limitation, but that's sick. Trinity today doesn't require lots of skills to keep her team alive, and people want an even more godlike build to be able to spam their ult without conditions. Please, stop playing great games like Warframe and start playing smartphone-games.

[Trichouette]

4 hours ago, Chewarette said:

-snip-

A multi-tool trinity build seems way too complicated for the community...

[Racter]

18 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

A multi-tool trinity build seems way too complicated for the community...

Because they're flat out inferior? Cratered blessing wasn't enough, these people want EV ruined too. Might as well ask DE to remove her at this point. It will change NOTHING. I (and all other powerfarmers/minmaxers) will happily drop as many pads as it takes, nerfing EV would only serve to drive away more casuals.

The Trinity nerfs were a terrible decision and should be reverted in their entirety IMO. Support roles are always vastly underplayed, we have literally one (1) healer in this game and they threw her under the bus for no reason. No, the joke that is Renewal or Mend do not count. you might as well call Hydroid a healer if you're trying to count those.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Racter0325

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

6 hours ago, Insizer said:

I'd honestly like to debate with you on this, but if you're not even going to defend your position then I don't see much of a point.

The people you are debating with need to have a certain level of understanding to make it worth it, and if you haven't even heard it called a pie, I question whether you do. "Pie" isn't a term I came up with, and it has be around as long as "tater". EV requires several things to work (e.g. Trinity, energy, enemy, etc.) Anyone can just spam 3 pies, anywhere, with no enemies needed, and be at full energy almost instantly, but if you don't even know what they are . . . 

1 hour ago, Trichouette said:

A multi-tool trinity build seems way too complicated for the community...

I know what dog poop is, but I am not refusing to eat it just because shoving it in my mouth is "too complicated."

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

23 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I am not asking for infinite range on EV, just blessing so we don't have to be stuck camping together. Healers tend to get ignore in other shooters because following around other players like a sick puppy is not fun. The great part of blessing was that you could heal them from anywhere. It also added and extra level of fun because you had to keep an eye on their health as well as everything else you were doing. That might be too much micromanaging for the average player, but Trinity players enjoyed it.

I can see how they would remove that element when Trinity Prime was new and every little so-and-so was playing her, but like I said, the dust has settled. Those types of players have moved on to the next big thing. It's time to make Trinity great again.

That was the consideration, as to why she was nerved, utilizing self damage and casting blessing. This would sanction you to any high level missions with ease.

Edited September 6, 2016 by (PS4)Deception_Pharo

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Deception_Pharo said:

That was the consideration, as to why she nerved, utilizing self damage and casting blessing. This would sanction you to any high level missions with ease.

I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. I know why her DR was nerfed, that's not even what I am talking about. 

[Bobtm]

Infinite range, without some caveat, is literally bad design.  Just because an ability is a support ability, doesn't mean it's justifiable to give it infinite range just because.  As was already noted in the thread, if Blessing arbitrarily has infinite range, why wouldn't Roar or any other buff also have infinite range?

Trinity definitely isn't in some bad or weak spot as a frame at the moment.  In fact she's the only frame that always has access to what is effectively an infinite energy loop for herself and an energy gain for her allies.  She can also indemnify herself from procs utilizing her 3, as well as the fact that her heal also provides up to 75% flat damage resistance.

There's no "dust" to have settled, Trinity wasn't demolished.  She's a very powerful as a healer/support frame with an infinite energy loop that's still a bit silly.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, Bobtm said:

 

Infinite range, without some caveat, is literally bad design.

 

I stopped reading right there. 

[Bobtm]

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I stopped reading right there. 

Maybe take some time to consider points from a perspective of game design then, instead of working with poor ideals and kneejerk reactions.

Go look across every game in the history of ever.  Healing doesn't just auto-hit all things endlessly forever except in the most poorly of designed games.  Healer abilities either tend to limit a cast over a radial area centered on the caster, radially centered on a chosen point, or are limited by a total target number (which is invariably lower than max party size) to ensure a healer actually has to play well to reap proper benefits.

Provide some backup for your position on this argument;  Why is infinite healing range without any other drawback a good design?

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Even if Renewal and Mend gets buffed, and Blessing gets readjusted to suit player flexibility "again," the current perspective and trend is that other healing skills will still fall short unless DE does something to make those skills (or those frames housing those skills) on par supportively with Trinity.

Regarding EV, a bandaid solution that was introduced was Arcane Energize, which is applicable to any frame if you have a set equipped, but even then we're discussing this matter in terms of the Power (and to some extent, Lore). While I'm all for seeing something done to EV, like maybe halving or reduce its base Power Strength down to 75% in terms of energy gains for herself and other party members, she's the only frame that has this skill and it does its niche as intended. It wouldn't help to see it removed when it's been an integral part of her kit since the beginning of her release.

Ultimately, no matter what is done, Trinity will still be regarded as the bastion for immense support and healing in exchange for poor CC capabilities. So then beckons the question, how do other support frames support their roles, govern their niches, and compete with Trinity? 

I know it's a bit of a rhetorical question, but I honestly don't want to see Trinity nerfed to the ground (again and again) when she is advertised to be the ultimate support, and yet nothing is done to rework or buff other Support frames that could honestly be seen to compete with Trinity on a leveled field. Buff Oberon, Hydroid, Equinox?, and see how they blossom with their reworks.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. I know why her DR was nerfed, that's not even what I am talking about. 

Before, blessing had infinite range and the player could stay at the end of a map spamming blessing with self damage weapon, while the rest of the coterie could cheese any mission type at ease and minimum effort.

As for the healing percentage, that is up to DE, before it was instantly 100%, and now I believe it's less.

There was no challenge.

Edited September 6, 2016 by (PS4)Deception_Pharo

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

12 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Provide some backup for your position on this argument;  Why is infinite healing range without any other drawback a good design?

I have many answers for that, but i'll let the person you've quoted answer it.

[Insizer]

2 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

The people you are debating with need to have a certain level of understanding to make it worth it, and if you haven't even heard it called a pie, I question whether you do. "Pie" isn't a term I came up with, and it has be around as long as "tater". EV requires several things to work (e.g. Trinity, energy, enemy, etc.) Anyone can just spam 3 pies, anywhere, with no enemies needed, and be at full energy almost instantly, but if you don't even know what they are . . . 

You are still on that?Give it a rest. Just because I've never heard them called pies, but rather pads, you toss my argument out? Look, I've been playing Warframe since the start of open beta. I'm not a greenhorn who doesn't know what they are talking about. Perhaps, I've heard it called called pies, but not often enough for me to remember it. Keep trying to hold that above my head from atop your high chair and I'll take sledgehammer to its legs.

for comparison:

• Large team energy restore: dispenses 100 energy/7s for a total of 400 energy/21s (there are three 7s pauses between the 4 pulses)
• EV: up to 299 energy/however long it takes a team to kill 1 enemy

As you've said, dropping 3 pads would replicate EV's max energy regen

Yes, pads do regen a lot of energy, yes they are easy to craft, and yes you can drop them without enemies around, but all you're saying is that using EV once is like can be replicated by dropping a few consumable gear. You're still not saying how EV isn't game-breaking. Frankly, it there was an ability that dropped a few free pads at once then it too would be game-breaking. You are getting a ridiculous amount of free energy and able to ensure that the energy pools of everyone in the party will not drop below 70% full (50% for low energy pool frames). How does that not break the balance of the game?

Trinity shouldn't be able to make infinite energy. Limiting what she receives from EV would balance the potency of this ability. Trinity is a support frame, and she does a good job at it... too good, right now a competent Trinity all but flips the god-mode switch on her team.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Insizer
edited for clarity

[Insizer]

3 hours ago, Racter0325 said:

Because they're flat out inferior? Cratered blessing wasn't enough, these people want EV ruined too. Might as well ask DE to remove her at this point. It will change NOTHING. I (and all other powerfarmers/minmaxers) will happily drop as many pads as it takes, nerfing EV would only serve to drive away more casuals.

The Trinity nerfs were a terrible decision and should be reverted in their entirety IMO. Support roles are always vastly underplayed, we have literally one (1) healer in this game and they threw her under the bus for no reason. No, the joke that is Renewal or Mend do not count. you might as well call Hydroid a healer if you're trying to count those.

So they should give Trinity command over the god-mode switch just because support roles are not popular?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

18 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Large team energy restore: dispenses 100 energy

Drop 3 in rapid succession. You now have 300 energy near-instantly. 

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Drop 3 in rapid succession. You now have 300 energy near-instantly. 

You're veritably missing the point Insizer is making.

[Insizer]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Drop 3 in rapid succession. You now have 300 energy near-instantly. 

Yes, I know. Thank you for reiterating what I already said:

32 minutes ago, Insizer said:

for comparison:

• Large team energy restore: dispenses 100 energy/7s for a total of 400 energy/21s (there are three 7s pauses between the 4 pulses)
• EV: up to 299 energy/however long it takes a team to kill 1 enemy

As you've said, dropping 3 pads would replicate EV's max energy regen

Please though, can you address the point:

32 minutes ago, Insizer said:

all you're saying is that using EV once is like can be replicated by dropping a few consumable gear. You're still not saying how EV isn't game-breaking. Frankly, if there was an ability that dropped a few free pads at once then it too would be game-breaking. You are getting a ridiculous amount of free energy and able to ensure that the energy pools of everyone in the party will not drop below 70% full (50% for low energy pool frames). How does that not break the balance of the game?

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Insizer
boldened words and spelling fix

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, Insizer said:

Yes, I know. Thank you for reiterating what I already said:

Please though, can you address the point:

 

I already have.  EV requires a Trinity, an enemy, Trinity having a certain amount of energy to start, aiming, no nullifier, etc., etc.

Or you can just drop 3 pies literally anywhere and with any frame. 

 

[Insizer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I already have.  EV requires a Trinity, an enemy, Trinity having a certain amount of energy to start, aiming, no nullifier, etc., etc.

Or you can just drop 3 pies literally anywhere and with any frame. 

 

• There are more than 100 - infinite enemies on a map than isn't the beginner planets. Enemies are not an issue
• Ok, once you get 50 energy then you are set for life. Unless you are hit by a magnetic proc and are affected exactly the same as other frames.
• Aiming... congrats, you have to actually aim an ability, much like 50% of the abilities in the game...
• nullifiers... ok, so they disable your abilities you like they do for any other frame.
• How many times per match do you use EV to supply energy? Do you use it just once, twice, three times, or do you use it more like 10-20 times?

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

9 minutes ago, Insizer said:

• There are more than 100 - infinite enemies on a map than isn't the beginner planets. Enemies are not an issue
• Ok, once you get 50 energy then you are set for life. Unless you are hit by a magnetic proc and are affected exactly the same as other frames.
• Aiming... congrats, you have to actually aim an ability, much like 50% of the abilities in the game...
• nullifiers... ok, so they disable your abilities you like they do for any other frame.
• How many times per match do you use EV to supply energy? Do you use it just once, twice, three times, or do you use it more like 10-20 times?

I concur with your points, as many people favor trinity EV rather than using energy pad, as it's takes resources and 1 min waiting time.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

12 minutes ago, Insizer said:

• There are more than 100 - infinite enemies on a map than isn't the beginner planets. Enemies are not an issue
• Ok, once you get 50 energy then you are set for life. Unless you are hit by a magnetic proc and are affected exactly the same as other frames.
• Aiming... congrats, you have to actually aim an ability, much like 50% of the abilities in the game...
• nullifiers... ok, so they disable your abilities you like they do for any other frame.
• How many times per match do you use EV to supply energy? Do you use it just once, twice, three times, or do you use it more like 10-20 times?

Doesn't matter. Those are all limitations to the ability that the pies don't have, and the pies can just as quickly get you to full energy in a second or two, and you don't even need a Trinity to do it. So there is absolutely nothing OP about EV that is not more OP about pies, and if you you want to complain about energy restoration in general then make your own thread. This is not the thread for it.

Edited September 6, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Doesn't matter. Those are all limitations to the ability that the pies don't have, and the pies can just as quickly get you to full energy in a second or two, and you don't even need a Trinity to do it. So there is absolutely nothing OP about EV that is no also OP about pies, and if you you want to complain about energy restoration in general then make your own thread. This is not the thread for it.

But then again you would have to build more and use resources. EV is sturdy as it suspends the target for a duration and grants energy to the coterie, and it's more accessible than using and frivoling away energy pads overtime.

Also he's not grousing, he's just telling you the difference and stating prove of your topic.

Edited September 6, 2016 by (PS4)Deception_Pharo