Canonically, When Were Primes Created?

[Rhekemi]

Before or after the Old War with Sentients?

All of Ballas' dialogue (in the Saryn, Vauban and Nekros Prime trailers) would suggest after the Old War...Yes? No?

Open topic.

I don't have the answer.

Update: Downthread, I mention that I'm asking these questions to help with something I'm working on. It's a bit of fan lore, but done based on existing, canon lore. I'm attempting to illustrate, in Ballas' words/voice, why each 'frame might have been created. You can find it here.

Would appreciate your thoughts, Tenno.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Rhekemi

[Praxxor]

Primes are the original warframes, there's no way they could be created after the war. The regular Warframes were made later, maybe even after the war, but the Primes were definitely pre-collapse.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

I'm guessing with each passing day new problems arised leading up to the Old War so Ballas created them right there and then to combat them? 

I wish there were more ways to hear Ballas' in game instead of just the trailers. He's a really interesting character.

Edited September 6, 2016 by (XB1)OTF SERENiTY

[Horonelius]

Pretty sure what we know as "regular" warframes are in fact the Tenno attempting to recreate the Orokin originals without the use of Orokin technology.

[NightmareT12]

The Warframe project started as the last hope of the Orokin in the Old War. They converted Margulis Transference research into the Warframe project -- so the first Warframe, Excalibur, was made during the War.

It is possible that Ballas made some designs in purpose for some specific functions -- while it's true that Saryn can attack a Sentient, it's very likely that her original purpose was to destroy the Infestation on Earth.

Also, the normal Warframe models we see seem to be made during the War, as the Orokin resources were not as avaiulable as before the Tenno surely had to do their own reparations to them -- leaving the alt helmets, Immortal Skins, and various models we see nowadays.

[Rhekemi]

Yes, the traditional view (and mine) is that all Primes were created first, and later vanillas are based on them. But for a moment, I imagined this timeline:

• Prototypes/early forms (Rhino codex)
• Actual warframes 
• Primes (created shortly after the war / during the wind down as a sort of honor)
• Fall of the Orokin empire

[NightmareT12]

Just now, Rhekemi said:

Yes, the traditional view (and mine) is that all Primes were created first, and later vanillas are based on them. But for a moment, I imagined this timeline:

• Prototypes/early forms (Rhino codex)
• Actual warframes 
• Primes (created shortly after the war / during the wind down as a sort of honor)
• Fall of the Orokin empire

Nah, there's something a bit wrong. It's a bit more like this:

• Biological (bioengineered?) being is discovered to get calm in presence of Tenno.
• Transference project becomes Warframe project
• First Warframe designed is Excalibur (Prime). First weapons designed are Braton, Lato and Skana Prime.
• Margulis dies (?), Ballas takes complete and direct control of the project. Lotus is introduced to the Tenno (how is beyond me) and gets direct control of communications.
• More Warframe get created and designed (Prime variants, since they're the original designs)
• Old War continues raging. Materials grow scarce, Tenno repairs to their own Warframe leaves us with what we see now
• Various Codex Quest events happen
• The War ends, the Tenno are summoned at the ceremony.
• Lotus, who previously convicnes the Tenno the Orokin are a threat, commands the final strike on the Orokin
• The Tenno enter cryosleep, the Lotus protects and hides them in the Second Dream
• Lua is hidden in the Void
• Years pass, the system evolves and ends up falling into chaos due the rapidly increasing force of the Grineer Empire and the Corpus
• "Wake up Tenno. You are needed."

[Airwolfen]

First they found the children ( not known if it was before or during the war )

The plans for warframes could be pre-war as well in the form of conduits to contain the power of the children but those were not meant to be weapons.

The creation of the weaponized (prime) warframes seems to have happened during the war when the orokin found out that the void energy of the children harmed the sentient. 

After the war could NOT have happened however because orokin blood flowed on the celebration of the wars ending. (so there kinda were no Orokin to develop the frames anymore and survivors would not make units for those who back stabbed them)

Edited September 6, 2016 by Airwolfen

[bluepheonix13]

15 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Yes, the traditional view (and mine) is that all Primes were created first, and later vanillas are based on them. But for a moment, I imagined this timeline:

• Prototypes/early forms (Rhino codex)
• Actual warframes 
• Primes (created shortly after the war / during the wind down as a sort of honor)
• Fall of the Orokin empire

Since (almost) all Orokin (probably including Ballas) are murdered by the Tenno after the war, I think it makes no sense to say that the Primes were created after the war.

[Mastikator2]

Tenno are described as using old weapons, so primes were probably already ancient by the time the tenno created. The Orokin era can be divided into lith, meso, neo and axi era, the weapons and warframes were probably created in the era that corresponds to the relic it drops from.

Actually scratch that, components drop from different relic types so there's probably no correlation.

[Airwolfen]

24 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Yes, the traditional view (and mine) is that all Primes were created first, and later vanillas are based on them. But for a moment, I imagined this timeline:

• Prototypes/early forms (Rhino codex)
• Actual warframes 
• Primes (created shortly after the war / during the wind down as a sort of honor)
• Fall of the Orokin empire

Primes were at the very least created during the war. You can read the Mag prime codex entry for that.

The entry describes a ship heading for the battle with the sentient with a "gold-gleaming" warframe on board.

We know it is heading towards a battle with the sentient because they specifically state that they use zero-tech armor and percussion weapons. As a reference to sentient that were immune to Orokin weaponry.

(it is actually pretty neat that this is lore from quite a while before WE even got to know the sentient and their immunity to these weapons. DE was planning ahead with that one.)

[Rhekemi]

7 minutes ago, bluepheonix13 said:

Since (almost) all Orokin (probably including Ballas) are murdered by the Tenno after the war, I think it makes no sense to say that the Primes were created after the war.

Exactly.

But I accounted for that in the timeline (which I made on a whim) which you quoted: Ballas would've died in the fall of the empire. 

At any rate, I'm working on something, and just wanted you esteemed Tenno's opinions on whether or not it was at all possible Primes were created after the war, but before the fall.

[Rhekemi]

38 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Primes were at the very least created during the war. You can read the Mag prime codex entry for that.

The entry describes a ship heading for the battle with the sentient with a "gold-gleaming" warframe on board.

We know it is heading towards a battle with the sentient because they specifically state that they use zero-tech armor and percussion weapons. As a reference to sentient that were immune to Orokin weaponry.

(it is actually pretty neat that this is lore from quite a while before WE even got to know the sentient and their immunity to these weapons. DE was planning ahead with that one.)

I assure you, I've read it. It's the one showcasing the Archwing as well. I've leaned heavy on it and some other entries...for a thing.

Sometimes I feel it's best not to say everything I know/understand in order to get more information/opinions. I know a decent amount of the lore, but the gaps, exact timeline, and possibility for an alternative view stick out. Knowing a decent amount doesn't mean I'm an expert, and I'd still like to learn what I've missed (which I'm doing as I read this).

P.S.: Thank you, everyone. I wasn't asking a rhetorical question (to which I knew the answer), nor am I completely ignorant. If anyone feels my presentation was false, apologies. Not my intention.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Rhekemi

[bluepheonix13]

46 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Exactly.

But I accounted for that in the timeline (which I made on a whim) which you quoted: Ballas would've died in the fall of the empire. 

At any rate, I'm working on something, and just wanted you esteemed Tenno's opinions on whether or not it was at all possible Primes were created after the war, but before the fall.

Excuse me if I am wrong, but wasn't the ceremony where the orokin were killed directly at the end of the war? I think there was no time inbetween to create so many Primes. 

[Rhekemi]

15 hours ago, bluepheonix13 said:

Excuse me if I am wrong, but wasn't the ceremony where the orokin were killed directly at the end of the war? I think there was no time inbetween to create so many Primes. 

As far I know, you're not wrong.

But, I mean, between where and when the war was fought and the empire's hub and the setting up of some elaborate Orokin ceremony to welcome its conquerors, I imagine there must have been unaccounted for gaps of time. How long, I dunno.

I'm saying maybe events didn't necessarily need to run together so that some of Ballas' trailer narration could've conceivably taken place after the war was over, if any primes were created then (especially if they were already in progress).

Edited September 7, 2016 by Rhekemi

[Heliopata]

I  think that the Primes where made after the normal variants. The orokin empire was in a dire situacion (Resources and getting they asses kick), so i dont think they went full bling bling on experimental weapons. Also ,crafted by artisan doesnt sound like you could make so many and fast.

So you got you normal mass produce warframe stuff for the normal soldier or low guardian and the prime variants for high ranking officers, propaganda and maybe outstanding individuals.

I imagine that the prime variants where the ones that decapitate the orokin empire, since where the closer ones to the top brass of the orokin.

[(PSN)Oreic-Reynier]

1 hour ago, Mastikator2 said:

Tenno are described as using old weapons, so primes were probably already ancient by the time the tenno created. The Orokin era can be divided into lith, meso, neo and axi era, the weapons and warframes were probably created in the era that corresponds to the relic it drops from.

Actually scratch that, components drop from different relic types so there's probably no correlation.

The Tenno used "old"  weapons specifically to get around the sentient's ability to nullify the modern weapons of the time. I doubt the Orokin had Frames lying around just waitung for the off chance that a tenno-like operator would come about. 

[Mastikator2]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Oreic-Reynier said:

The Tenno used "old"  weapons specifically to get around the sentient's ability to nullify the modern weapons of the time. I doubt the Orokin had Frames lying around just waitung for the off chance that a tenno-like operator would come about. 

The invention of warframes was probably an ongoing project, the war with the sentients probably lasted for centuries. By the end of the war I'm sure some warframes were from "times of old" too.

We're never given a timeline of the orokin empire and when sentients and warframes existed but we do know that certain colonies lived under the protection of certain warframes for generations. (For example Inaros) The fact Baro Ki'teer was a child when the tradition of Inaros was still alive suggests that the time since the tenno went into hibernation was probably in the "few hundred years" range, while the orokin empire probably existed for thousands of years.

[Sloan441]

We don't know.

We don't know what the relationship between primes and non-prime warframes is.

The name itself is suggestive and so are the new prime trailers. However, quests in the game itself deal only with non-primes and the Titania quest implies the non-prime came first--although this may be simply gameplay vs. narrative.

The fact that the primes are optimized to operate in the Orokin towers and their parts come only from there is suggestive that they were special and kept very close to the Orokin themselves. Why that is so is conjecture, but it may have been as simple as pure aesthetics.

My personal view is they're simply variants and they co-existed during the same time period. At a guess, they were produced separately from the regular units and kept in the towers as a guard and their appearance was due to Orokin sensibilities and status competition.

[Blakrana]

Ultimately, the problem is two-fold:

1) We don't know when the Warframe Project began relative to the Old War

2) We don't know what function a Prime is meant to serve.

Thinking about it logically, the Warframe Project must have had some degree of time in R&D just to get working proof of concepts off the ground. Sure, the RPC gives us the first instance of Transference being essentially hijacked, but that's what led to the Warframe Project in the first place. Whilst it may seem incredibly dull for people it doesn't make sense for a prototype, let alone first instance of a design, to be especially ornate. I'm willing to argue then that the basics were established first in conventional Warframes and their designs refined and tested, as part of R&D. Once the product lines were essentially finalised, Ballas could then present the ornate Prime as a finalised 'official' variation to his superiors.

Fact is though, we just really don't know as of the moment. Timeline remains vague.

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

Before or after the Old War with Sentients?

All of Ballas' dialogue (in the Saryn, Vauban and Nekros Prime trailers) would suggest after the Old War...Yes? No?

Open topic.

I don't have the answer.

Lots of questions here so I can see the confusion.

Stalker's comments assert it was Prime frames that undertook the Orokin Massacre.

Primes are found in amongst Orokin Relics.

Fair bet it was Prime's that were fielded first.

...I would suggest not giving the rest too much thought though.

Like the fact that the Ballas board presentations only show Primes displaying their ability to address Orokin products (Infestation, Corpus, and Grineer are all Orokin products).

Or how regular Warframes came to be at all if what was used in the Orokin War were Primes

Or the question of who actually built the regular frames if the Orokin were dead...The Tenno were tricked into stasis after the Massacre.

Why the Lotus is in a (mostly) working body (Crystal to Flesh) but hasn't given her withered children access to the same technology

Where are the faction of Soldiers known as Dax now that the Orokin are dead. 

For my part, I'm keeping an open mind in regard to the story (as a whole) and not thinking too much about it anymore personally.

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Padre_Akais

[bluepheonix13]

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

The name itself is suggestive and so are the new prime trailers. However, quests in the game itself deal only with non-primes and the Titania quest implies the non-prime came first--although this may be simply gameplay vs. narrative.

My view of it is, that the Warframes that we call "Prime" were the originals and were called without the Prime by the Orokin. Like what we would call Titania Prime was simply called Titania in the Orokin era and to distinguish "our" attempt at recreating her and the original, we nowadays call the original "Titania Prime". Just a guess though.

[Sloan441]

10 minutes ago, bluepheonix13 said:

My view of it is, that the Warframes that we call "Prime" were the originals and were called without the Prime by the Orokin. Like what we would call Titania Prime was simply called Titania in the Orokin era and to distinguish "our" attempt at recreating her and the original, we nowadays call the original "Titania Prime". Just a guess though.

It could be, but it could also be they were just variants of the fundamental warframe type. The regular ones went to war, while the primes were kept close to home and were made to fit in with Orokin décor and sensibilities. The fact the primes are optimized to fight in the towers would seem to support that view.

Of course, we know very little at all and don't even have a definitive timeline of events. Hopefully, TWW will shed some more light on matters.

[ravend]

primes are the orginal ones that were used in the begining. the ones we get now are cheap knock offs that someone took corners to create. thats why we have small differences between primes and non primes.

[Sloan441]

22 minutes ago, ravend said:

primes are the orginal ones that were used in the begining. the ones we get now are cheap knock offs that someone took corners to create. thats why we have small differences between primes and non primes.

There's nothing in the lore to support this.

There can be several interpretations of what little we do know, but the fact is we don't know why there are two variants. They could be a praetorian guard. They could be the original form and the more pedestrian warframes rationalized wartime variants. It could be both.

It would be best to approach interpretation of what we know through what we know of the Orokin themselves. They were paranoid. They had made a positive religion of control of the state apparatus. They had very highly developed life sciences. The absolute pinnacle of their ruling class was functionally immortal. They DNA locked everything with any bearing on the reigns of power to the ruling class. They had a highly developed distrust of AI and artificial lifeforms.

That's all in the lore. Using that point of view, where do the warframes and tenno fit in?