General Suggestions: Endless, Void and Sortie

[Nazrethim]

Hello everyone.

Tittle. I'm not going to bother with complex explanations. The idea is to make:

-Endless long runs worth doing without being mandatory

-Void be relevant without being mandatory nor bringing back it's old incarnation.

-Sortie rebalance to pose actual challenge instead of lvl inflation.

 

Endless Modes:

-Rotation A: replace Common and Uncommon mods that already drop from enemies with Endo, Credit caches and Resources. Example values: 15-30 Endo (depending on lvl), 100/30/2 Common/Uncommon/Rare resources (example: 200Ferrite/50Plastids/3OrokinCells)

-Rotation B: no change

-RotC: reward is always 1 tier above RotB. Example: RotB=Meso Relic, RotC=Neo Relic.

-Rotation Cycle increase reward on the following formula: Reward = Rotation Reward*Cycle Number

Example:

1st Cycle: A(100Ferrite) A(15Endo) B(1Meso Relic) C(1Neo Relic

2nd Cycle: A(200Ferrite) A(30 Endo) B(2Meso Relic) C(2Neo Relic)

3rd Cycle: A(300Ferrite) A(45 Endo) B(3Meso Relic) C(3Neo Relic)

 

Individual extraction:

-When a player steps into extraction, a 10s timer will show up for that player alone. After those 10s the player leaves the mission with all his/her rewards while the rest of the team stays on the mission. If all 4 players arrive to extraction the timer is ignored and the mission ends instantly.

 

Void:

-Fissures no longer appear on Void missions.

-Void Missions always work like Fissure missions. Enemies always drop reactant and you can equip a Relic to crack it open and get a reward or go without relic and collect 10 Reactant to get Void traces. Fissures show up on the tileset, but they just spawn units and buff surrounding corrupted or corrupt Corpus&Grineer units on Sabotage missions.

-Era Relics can be equiped according to Void lvl:

10-20=Lith

20-30=Meso

30-40=Neo

40-45=Axi

 

Sortie:

-Sorties are always lvl65-70

-Weapon specific conditions (Sniper/Shotgun/Bow/Melee-only) are replaced by Faction Weapon specifics. Instead of having one weapon equiped from a very specific type players will be required to use full loadouts of weapons of the enemy faction. Corpus Sorties would deman Corpus weapons, Grineer Sorties would demand Grineer weapons, etcetera.

-Bosses are lvl65 and feature slightly altered mechanics on their encounters instead of lvl inflation.

Examples:

+Raptor: Fight all 3 Raptors at once.

+Kela da Thaym: Orbital strikes never stop but target only one player. Orbital strikes select a new target every 30s

+Lephantis: phase1 heads leave a toxic cloud when they hide, phase 2 Ancient Healers spawn during the fight.

-Units in Sortie missions are replaced by Elite troops: Nightwatch Corps for Grineer  and their equivalents for Corpus and Infested.

-All units add upgraded with -30% Status duration and Imunity to staggers&knockdowns for 3s after being staggered or knocked down.

-Sorties re-runs award large amounts Endo and/or big Credit caches

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Nazrethim

[steelblueskies]

ugh the heck is peoples problem wanting drop tables containing endo for rotations, much less planetary resources.

can't sell endo like you could fusion cores. easier to beat those figures for 50 minutes stacking by rolling a farm squad on coba for 20 endo wise.

arguably the same issue for any planets resources.

those are the same kind of trash rotatiosn that needed REMOVED from the old void drop tables.

 

its not reward, its time padding around the rewards to stretch them.

hells i'd take credit caches over the planet resources and endo. its harder to raw farm anywhere near as effectively.

[Fluffysbeans]

I firmly agree that there needs to be more incentive to go past 20 waves on endless missions, and this is a pretty good way to do it. The numbers might need to be a little rebalanced in DE's favor so that there could still be a reason to purchase resources with plat, but that could easily be fixed by changing the multiplier to adding .5 every round instead of a full 1 increase (of course the multiplier would need to be the same as you suggested for relics, can't really get half a relic).

In general your sortie idea are also very solid, keeping the missions challenging, but not too simple. Right now, the sorties are really just obstacles that get more annoying as you progress through the three. Absurd level scaling really should be left to endless modes, as the current enemy levels in sorties only make things take a little longer and don't really pose an interesting challenge. 

I like the void change idea, though it's definitely low on the priority list of needed changes.

[Takkov]

@steelblueskies DE stated in the endo introduction post, that "treasures" will be coming, which will make endo tradable

[Nazrethim]

13 minutes ago, steelblueskies said:

ugh the heck is peoples problem wanting drop tables containing endo for rotations, much less planetary resources.

Well, Rot A could include Cryo as a 'common' and Oxium as 'uncommon'. And Endo and Resources are better than Fast Deflection, Vitality, Redirection or other common mod. Honestly Rot As come in two so they can't really have "good" rewards.

14 minutes ago, Fluffysbeans said:

I firmly agree that there needs to be more incentive to go past 20 waves on endless missions, and this is a pretty good way to do it. The numbers might need to be a little rebalanced in DE's favor so that there could still be a reason to purchase resources with plat, but that could easily be fixed by changing the multiplier to adding .5 every round instead of a full 1 increase (of course the multiplier would need to be the same as you suggested for relics, can't really get half a relic).

I like the void change idea, though it's definitely low on the priority list of needed changes.

-Yeah, numbers are numbers, mechanics are more important :3

-Well, thing is Void is hard for it's level range, but not worth running nowadays, I also find myself not having Fissure missions to run, either because there are no fissures of the tier I want or because they are all Defense or Mobile defense (I hate those). I'm sure many have the same problem, so why not add 3 constant fissure missions for each tier in the Void? It's a win-win scenario really. Makes Void relevant, gives constant and reliable "fissure" missions to run and doesn't bring back the old Void like many MANY nostalgic people suggest (something that personally pisses me off because I'm on the "move forward, not backward" mindset.)

[steelblueskies]

2 hours ago, Takkov said:

@steelblueskies DE stated in the endo introduction post, that "treasures" will be coming, which will make endo tradable

so what, a r0 common fusion core was 300 credits. selling the stack i had converted of those from half a week represented a few hundred thousand credits.

the big wall on r10 mod upgrades (as well as legendary bits) is the 1 million credit tax on trades or the upgrade from r9>r10 which can't be done piecemeal anymore.

i wouldn't mind getting vitality etc for example in a rotation a pool, but if it shows up it better either be rank above 0, or multiple duplicates. heck it'd take just two r0 mods to beat the crap 500 credit caches, and 5 r0 mods to beat the 1500 credit caches. that they can ALSO be converted to endo makes them far more versatile and useful than raw endo which can be farmed far more easily anywhere, and faster than a rot a reward.

 

that was my main point on that side really. my heart sinks everytime i get a 5 minute wave reward in a defense or survival that is 80-400 endo, knowing i could have run the same mission with a loot squad pair and two smeeta and more than doubled it on average for the time spent, to say nothing of the mods that flow in on top.

[Nazrethim]

On 10/9/2016 at 2:17 PM, steelblueskies said:

so what, a r0 common fusion core was 300 credits. selling the stack i had converted of those from half a week represented a few hundred thousand credits.

the big wall on r10 mod upgrades (as well as legendary bits) is the 1 million credit tax on trades or the upgrade from r9>r10 which can't be done piecemeal anymore.

i wouldn't mind getting vitality etc for example in a rotation a pool, but if it shows up it better either be rank above 0, or multiple duplicates. heck it'd take just two r0 mods to beat the crap 500 credit caches, and 5 r0 mods to beat the 1500 credit caches. that they can ALSO be converted to endo makes them far more versatile and useful than raw endo which can be farmed far more easily anywhere, and faster than a rot a reward.

That's a fair point. Though I have to admit I have troubles getting enough Endo, of course that could also be that I try to max a lot of mods at the same time instead of focusing on the ones I need most :P

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

Great to see you Nazrethim, and I will actually try them when I get the chance.

Edited September 11, 2016 by (PS4)Deception_Pharo

[Carnage2K4]

I'd really like to see rewards for long runs, I'm honestly sick of ppl who want to do 2 waves of something just to get the cred and two A rewards, then leave and repeate...

I'm of the opinion that waves should scale rewards with difficulty,

eg;

1st 4 waves: AABC

2nd 4 waves ABBC

3rd 4 waves ABCC

4th 4 waves BBCC

etc etc...

Something like that, wehere staying longer and longer gives greater rewards... M,ay be even scaling the critic bonus for every 4 waves... I just really hate speed runs TBH...

 

 

 

[steelblueskies]

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

That's a fair point. Though I have to admit I have troubles getting enough Endo, of course that could also be that I try to max a lot of mods at the same time instead of focusing on the ones I need most :P

i just broke down ~3k random r0 mods.

i had a choice- 21k endo, or ~1 million credits.

raw endo is the worst thing in existence.

[Nazrethim]

9 hours ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I'm of the opinion that waves should scale rewards with difficulty,

Something like that, wehere staying longer and longer gives greater rewards... M,ay be even scaling the critic bonus for every 4 waves... I just really hate speed runs TBH...

-Well that depends on your definition of "difficulty". For me, difficulty is Nightwatch corps: They can kick your arse without needing lvl inflation, they just make good use of cover, have better accuracy and their units work together. Facing a lvl1 Bombard is mechanically the same as facing a lvl100 Bombard, except the lvl100 will oneshot you, that's not difficulty. IF Endless modes increased in difficulty, you would begin the mission facing normal Lancers and by the 40min mark you will face the Nightwatch Corps and 3-4 Manics, by the 60min mark the units would be lvl70ish and gain CC inmunity for Sleep, Blind and all other "hard" CCs and 3s inmunity to staggers and knockdowns after being staggered or knocked down. By the 80min mark Eximus Nightwatch would dominate the battlefield, all retaining their CC inmunity/resistance of previous waves.

-Yeah, I absolutely agree in increasing rewards, however I think  Rot A should stay RotA and Rot C stay RotC, just with increased rewards in quantity. The system I proposed is kinda simple to grasp (you stay longer, rewards are the same but double or triple over time) and already pays off: By doing a 60min run you get the equivalent of 6 RotCs, while doing 3 separate 20min run will net you only 3 RotCs worth of rewards.

[Carnage2K4]

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-Well that depends on your definition of "difficulty". For me, difficulty is Nightwatch corps: They can kick your arse without needing lvl inflation, they just make good use of cover, have better accuracy and their units work together. Facing a lvl1 Bombard is mechanically the same as facing a lvl100 Bombard, except the lvl100 will oneshot you, that's not difficulty. IF Endless modes increased in difficulty, you would begin the mission facing normal Lancers and by the 40min mark you will face the Nightwatch Corps and 3-4 Manics, by the 60min mark the units would be lvl70ish and gain CC inmunity for Sleep, Blind and all other "hard" CCs and 3s inmunity to staggers and knockdowns after being staggered or knocked down. By the 80min mark Eximus Nightwatch would dominate the battlefield, all retaining their CC inmunity/resistance of previous waves.

-Yeah, I absolutely agree in increasing rewards, however I think  Rot A should stay RotA and Rot C stay RotC, just with increased rewards in quantity. The system I proposed is kinda simple to grasp (you stay longer, rewards are the same but double or triple over time) and already pays off: By doing a 60min run you get the equivalent of 6 RotCs, while doing 3 separate 20min run will net you only 3 RotCs worth of rewards.

I was speaking of difficulty as an increasing variable within a level... You're talking about it as relative concept attributed to, or experienced by individuals.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Carnage2K4

[Nazrethim]

45 minutes ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I was speaking of difficulty as an increasing variable within a level... You're talking about it as relative concept attributed to, or experienced by individuals.

Oh. I get it. Thanks for clarify.

[Myrphak]

I completely agree with both of you Nazrethim and Carnage :

We really need an upgrade of endless missions and a great come back of the void. Why not having a chance after 1h suvival/defence mission in the void of getting a Baro Ki Teer loot ?

By the way, the idea of having void trace in voids maps, independently of fissures, would increase the lure of the void.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Myrphak

[Nazrethim]

44 minutes ago, Myrphak said:

We really need an upgrade of endless missions and a great come back of the void. Why not having a chance after 1h suvival/defence mission in the void of getting a Baro Ki Teer loot ?

What about this: Add to T4 Void Dragon Vaults that require the same Dragon Keys as Derelict. One vault per mission. Opening the Vault would trigger Void Vor and "elite" corrupted units to join the fray, think of it like Void's equivalent of Bursas. These could be Corrupted Manic, Corrupted Hyenna and Corrupted Balliffs, all with inmunity to "hard" CCs and 2-3s inmunity to "soft" CC (stagger, knockdown) after being affected by them. If you manage to complete the mission with such hardcore enemies in the middle AND the dragon keys, you get an extra reward, which could be a rare event mods (Argon Scope, Slash/Impact/Puncture 120%, etcetera) with a rare chance to get a Prime mod or a Legendary Core.

[Myrphak]

Yes ! Indeed, really great idea ! I love it !

Now the question is : how we can be read by the dev and convince them that this will be a nice upgrade of the endless missions AND the void maps ? ;)

Or may be make your suggestion here ?

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Myrphak

[Nazrethim]

16 minutes ago, Myrphak said:

Yes ! Indeed, really great idea ! I love it !

Now the question is : how we can be read by the dev and convince them that this will be a nice upgrade of the endless missions AND the void maps ? ;)

DE is aware of these threads, I'm sure they have already read it :3

[Myrphak]

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

DE is aware of these threads, I'm sure they have already read it :3

Hummmm, dunno.

This forum is really active with tons of threads, some of them redundant but most of them with originals ideas and all of this without counting additionals platforms like twitter, reddit and so on.

So... No, I'm quite pessimistic about the fact that they can read all of them ^^"

But may be If you post yours suggestions in the dedicated thread, there yes, we may have a chance to reach our objectives to give back the orokin throne to the void and endless missions ;)

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Myrphak said:

Hummmm, dunno.

This forum is really active with tons of threads, some of them redundant but most of them with originals ideas and all of this without counting additionals platforms like twitter, reddit and so on.

So... No, I'm quite pessimistic about the fact that they can read all of them ^^"

I'm optimistic. You see, back when Ash's BS was pointless in Conclave, buffs were requested, which DE gave, problem is that the ability then became broken. "Nerf it" threads poped out, then I suggested "don't nerf it, better make it cost energy when you press the button instead of on sucessful cast". A few hotfixes and updates later that came true (though the ability was nerfed into uselessness later anyway). So yeah, they read.

I'm not much of an enthusiast of endless missions, in fact I hate Defense (not really for the endless part, more for the 'protect this useless casquet', I do like Sortie def protecting someone who can shoot back), but I do recognize Void and Endless modes should have a purpose.

[Myrphak]

Actually, I completely agree with you : the only thing that motivate me for endless mission is the chance of having a shiny gift ("Giiiive to the voiiiid would say our best friend Nef Anyo ^^) but I do recognise that most of my teammates enjoy staying hours in survival or defence missions for the challenge.

Warframe is mostly fashion farm, so why not give us back that in a new form, with news shiny loots ?

Exactly the same ideas when Baro Ki'Teer asked us to search a treasure for him and finally we find Inaros :)

Your're right when you say "nor bringing back it's old incarnation. " : either we like it or not, the game as change and it's not a question of making one step ahead and two behind, BUT I deeply think that we MUST do something for bringing back a bright aura of sanctity to the void. ([Mode RP: ON] ;] )

It is not a cheap map nor a place where a mean/decaying faction live. When I started the game about 3 years ago, the void was the most beautiful map of all. We need keys to gain the access, we need to defeat arch enemies to bring back our treasures. It is the place where the tennos as we know them since the second dream born. This is our lost/golds cities of utopia where the galaxy dreams to live or take control. We can't  let it stand as the same "level" as the others planets. I think, especially since the second dream, that this place deserve a special "use". ([Mode RP: OFF])

It was formerly to get back the olds orokin warframes, now this as change so we must find something new. May be a raid ? Or new loots ? In any ways, yours suggestions are a really good start :)

Edited September 14, 2016 by Myrphak

[aerosoul1337]

Void tower reward should scale with waves.

"The longer you fight, the more successful we will be."
My suggestion is simply improving void tower rewards.
The relic quality you get improves with waves.

For each cycle (rotation A, A, B, C), the quality improves by 1 rank
Intact -> Exceptional -> Flawless -> Radiant
Endo pack multiplier also increases with waves.

Or rewards player unique new stuffs at high waves (new mods/stances/auras and something else).
For example, T4 survival 80 minutes reward specific goodies (guaranteed), challenging based, not RNG based.

In this sample, after 4 cycles, everything is Radiant. (And Lower rank players do not have to worry about the void trace cap, if they are skillful enough)
So you try to do a T4 Interception for 16~20 Waves, if you fail you learn something and then you try different builds... (which is fun to me).
The formula can be fine tuned, this is just an example. (Defense and Survival take more time, maybe those mission improve rewards a bit faster).
 

Voila, Void 1.0 is challenging and rewarding again, and Void 2.0 is untouched at all!
For the better reward, I think a key to access void tower is required. (Honestly I prefer this old school way to form a party for challenging missions, instead of making it an open area that everyone can enter all the time.)
But the key should be easier to get, you can craft void keys using materials, just like Derelict keys.

So we keep the relic share system, and endless void missions are tempting and challenging again.

Also, there is still Orokin Derelict there, put it to good use too.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Myrphak said:

It was formerly to get back the olds orokin warframes, now this as change so we must find something new. May be a raid ? Or new loots ? In any ways, yours suggestions are a really good start :)

A Void raid, Dragon Vaults or any other new shiny stuff would be welcome. I personally think DE should expand the Parkour Challenges to be more hardcore and their own mission, similar to old raid. a "pillage" mission where your parkour skills are tested.

1 hour ago, aerosoul1337 said:

Void tower reward should scale with waves.

"The longer you fight, the more successful we will be."
My suggestion is simply improving void tower rewards.
The relic quality you get improves with waves.

For each cycle (rotation A, A, B, C), the quality improves by 1 rank
Intact -> Exceptional -> Flawless -> Radiant
Endo pack multiplier also increases with waves.

Or rewards player unique new stuffs at high waves (new mods/stances/auras and something else).
For example, T4 survival 80 minutes reward specific goodies (guaranteed), challenging based, not RNG based.

In this sample, after 4 cycles, everything is Radiant. (And Lower rank players do not have to worry about the void trace cap, if they are skillful enough)
So you try to do a T4 Interception for 16~20 Waves, if you fail you learn something and then you try different builds... (which is fun to me).
The formula can be fine tuned, this is just an example. (Defense and Survival take more time, maybe those mission improve rewards a bit faster).
 

Voila, Void 1.0 is challenging and rewarding again, and Void 2.0 is untouched at all!
For the better reward, I think a key to access void tower is required. (Honestly I prefer this old school way to form a party for challenging missions, instead of making it an open area that everyone can enter all the time.)
But the key should be easier to get, you can craft void keys using materials, just like Derelict keys.

So we keep the relic share system, and endless void missions are tempting and challenging again.

Also, there is still Orokin Derelict there, put it to good use too.

Thing is, I'm not talking about buffing Endless Void specifically, but endless modes across the whole starchart, that's why I separate "Void" improvements from "Endless modes" improvements. And because Void is not just endless modes, we need more.

Long runs don't necesarily mean more challenge. See, Challenge is born from advanced mechanics. Lvl scaling in Warframe isn't challenge, a lvl 1 Bombard isn't any different from a lvl 100 Bombard, except the second will oneshot you and will absorb enough gunfire to mow down a platoon of lvl 50 Bombards. That's artificial difficulty, not challenge. What would be challenge? if about the 40min mark lvl scaling halts and units spawn are replaced with advanced units, Manics, Balliffs, Bursas, Hyennas, Nightwatch-like units (those didn't need lvl inflation to kick our arses). Also, Challenge would be cheese-proof, so enemies would naturally be inmune or resistant (less duration) to "hard" CC's and maybe gain 3s inmunity to "soft" CCs (stagger, knockdown) after being affected by them, being resistant to AoE attacks (both powers and weapons). THAT would force people to develop strategy and coordination, it wouldn't be just "bring X frame with Y modbuild and cast this and this over and over" but rather a hectic fight for survival with fair enemies who don't rely on nullifiers, bulletsponge or one-shots to pose a threat.

Going back to Void keys doesn't add anything, would I like Void Keys returning? yes, but as a decorative object or a gear item with a new function. Move forward, not backward. Just look at the derelict. The only reason few people run them is because it's annoying to build keys for it.

[Nazrethim]

Added Individual Extraction to Endless modes.