Flood of meaningless weapons

[Vicious_Vipa]

Disclaimer:
It is a good thing that Warframe places emphasis on keeping the balance - a weapon (or frame) that was very good 2-3 years ago is still good today!

(unlike in other games like The Division where any gear piece you got at the beginning has become completely obsolete trash at least 3 times already - with ever major update,
which makes you feel like your "hard work" does not mean anything).

But (*looking at the list of weapons*) seriously??   What is all of that ?   I am honestly interested in knowing how many of you actually PLAY all these weapons instead of just
bringing them to 30 and then get rid of them.  I think everybody will agree that most of these new weapons don't stand out in terms of their stats...  and besides,  it is not so easy
to compare them with an older weapon that already has 4-6 Forma on it.

It is obvious that they keep shoving more and more weapons into our a**** because they know that people will keep playing the game (or come back)
to try to get them and then bring them to level 30 for MR.

Like I said at the beginning:
I can understand that they want to keep us "hamsters" running in our wheel of grinding for more and more stuff, in order to prolong the playtime,
and that they take another approach than games like the Division in order to do so.
But honestly - I am really getting bored of all these meaningless weapons and the result of it.
   Because the result is to level them "in the background" without ever really using any of these.

What are your thoughts on that ? Thanks.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Vicious_Vipa

[artemisfortune]

My thoughts are the same for all threads like this: A weapon is only as useless as you let it be. Most of the newer weapons that have come out do stand out in stats, and personally I haven't touched the Lex Prime, Soma Prime, or Nikana Prime in months, to name a few. I have not had a weapon that couldn't hold up in Sorties, hell, I accidentally forget to hit leave after wave 20 on akkad, and used the Torid to get to wave 25. Keep in mind the Torid was underleveled, and I was alone. I didn't even have the energy to use any abilities. Weapons are made by their mods, not their stats. Hell, the Panthera is one of my favorite weapons to date because of how much DPS it can surprisingly put out.

If you compare yourself to a hamster, you are one. If you don't like a weapon, don't use it. To put it this way, I'm a huge Dark Souls player. Across all the games there are tons of weapons, and even the most basic of ones can hold up in NG+, NG++, NG+++, etc. so long as you upgrade them but I don't use them all, nor do I want to. The same goes here. I have nearly every weapon, missing 3 or 4 primes, a couple prisma, and a couple vandal and wraith. The most boring weapons were the ones that killed with little effort, and just had me left clicking at the ground most of the time.

Edited September 29, 2016 by JSharpie

[Airwolfen]

I'm fine with it really. Pretty used to it with a background of RPG's and MMO's (and even racing games). Older weapons will feel more and more useless as weapons proceed to gain power. 

Next to that do people REALLY believe they want true balance in weapons? It would be stale as hell I can tell you that. from the moment you first start the game every other weapon would feel like a side grade. No feeling of power progression. And that matters more then people may believe.

People can scream power creep all they want but in the end if a new released weapon is sub-par then the forums will be full of how a new weapon is crap.

Warframe already started out with a bit of RPG in it but that genre binds more and more to Warframe with each update (imo really sealing the deal with the nemesis system incoming) yet people keep treating the game as a PvP shooter where true balance needs to be obtained. While true balance is extremely boring in a RPG setting.

 

[Azrael]

17 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

My thoughts are the same for all threads like this: A weapon is only as useless as you let it be. Most of the newer weapons that have come out do stand out in stats, and personally I haven't touched the Lex Prime, Soma Prime, or Nikana Prime in months, to name a few. I have not had a weapon that couldn't hold up in Sorties, hell, I accidentally forget to hit leave after wave 20 on akkad, and used the Torid to get to wave 25. Keep in mind the Torid was underleveled, and I was alone. I didn't even have the energy to use any abilities. Weapons are made by their mods, not their stats. Hell, the Panthera is one of my favorite weapons to date because of how much DPS it can surprisingly put out.

If you compare yourself to a hamster, you are one. If you don't like a weapon, don't use it. To put it this way, I'm a huge Dark Souls player. Across all the games there are tons of weapons, and even the most basic of ones can hold up in NG+, NG++, NG+++, etc. so long as you upgrade them but I don't use them all, nor do I want to. The same goes here. I have nearly every weapon, missing 3 or 4 primes, a couple prisma, and a couple vandal and wraith. The most boring weapons were the ones that killed with little effort, and just had me left clicking at the ground most of the time.

This guy here gets it.  ^^^^^

I thought about responding, and talking about how I rarely use the highest dps weapons I own, but he said it better, so I'm just gonna be quiet.

[taiiat]

if you want to make a thread that is nearing dev bashing(or just everybody bashing perhaps), you could atleast be less... vague about your point.

have some actual examples, comparisons between time blocks.... and such.

24 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

People can scream power creep all they want but in the end if a new released weapon is sub-par then the forums will be full of how a new weapon is crap.

some amount of Vertical Progression works, but you must have missed where some Equipment is >10x as powerful as others(and the Mod Power Curve is upwards of 100x), meaning the others have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
in.... other games, that sort of Vertical Progression might be 50% or 100% increases on some things (and even then with some actual trade offs). which is still close enough that two pieces of Equipment don't feel like they're from two separate games. which... means using either is just fine, despite one being overall superior.

or, if it's strictly an infinite Gear Ladder game, Playstyles are repeatedly represented, rather than dumped in obsolescence and taking that wide Player support and narrowing it down to almost nothing.
or better yet, where obsolescence is only in stats, not in Playstyles.

[Azrael]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

but you must have missed where some Equipment is >10x as powerful as others(and the Mod Power Curve is upwards of 100x), meaning the others have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Weapons can have many redeeming qualities other than their stats. I use weapons because they're fun, not because they are stronger than other weapons. With the right mods any weapon in the game can traverse the starchart, so the idea that you have to use the best weapons all the time is silly. Many weapons have a good feel to them or have interesting mechanics, but don't stand out in damage, and if you believe that weapons that aren't top dps have "no redeeming qualities" then you'll miss out on something fun.

[CrudShuzKong]

The only things that annoy me are that there are some hilariously underpowered weapons in the game, that really serve no purpose outside of mastery and that DE's newest additions to our prime arsenal are a horrendous case of powercreep...

[(PSN)T0katax]

I keep all my weapons at 30 (to remember wich I leveld up and not buying them a 2nd time... still think I'm missing some mechanics here^^)

But playing? That comes down to a selection of maybe 10 or 20 weapons

Same with frames tho.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Vicious_Vipa said:

But honestly - I am really getting bored of all these meaningless weapons and the result of it.

Tell you what op, give me an example of, like, 5 meaningless weapons. I'm just curious what weapons you're thinking of.

[Aenris]

I think the solution may be in changing or adding some weapon mods. For example, we could have special effects for lesser weapons, Just like Grineer weapon augments for the Jat Kittag and etcs. Maybe they wont deal a ton of damage, but we could have special effects. I mean, i know people who still carries a single Furis in their Arsenal just because of the New loka Augment that provides life steal (and heck, i still have my Grinlok because of it's augment and the style of the weapon)

Also a little tweaking in our actual damage system might be useful too. I remember Steve said something about it recently? like they're testing some ideas? And perhaps changes in enemy scaling too. Reduce the distance between the lowest and highest DPS of each weapon category perhaps? and the maximum levels of each enemy?

Dunno about that, i am no game designer after all. But I get what you're saying: I'm not happy about things like Silva & Aegis and the Ack & Brunt or Venka and Ripkas. I'd rather use the weak ones there, Just because they look cooler to me, but why should I? If one is better than the other there's no reason to.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Arandabido

[taiiat]

28 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

things are usable

i don't disagree but that doesn't change the facts. item A has no redeeming qualities because item B does everything item A does, but at 10x the effectiveness. and is probably neat in it's own right, but none of that changes that point.

i may enjoy some Equipment that is completely usurped (and without a higher 'Tier' replacement that is still the same Playstyle - that is actually available mind you, me having all of the Event Weapons doesn't change that Event Weapons cannot be the only form of 'next Tier' Equipment in a Playstyle, due to complete lack of reliable availability) by others, but that doesn't change that it is completely usurped in the first place.

 

you can dump a pretty low amount of money into a Hatchback and have a great low cost vehicle that's fun to drive in all kinds of situations. doesn't change that a professional vehicle does all of those things exponentially better.

- - - - - 

 

so basically as ever, Warframe is taking the worst possible position - not properly taking up infinite gear ladder so that Playstyles don't disappear, while also not having balanced Equipment that are within reasonable bounds of each other.
but instead, not doing either. which is just a mess.

Edited September 29, 2016 by taiiat

[Chipputer]

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

item A has no redeeming qualities because item B does everything item A does, but at 10x the effectiveness.

And the LORD said, "let there be Galatine Prime and let the people have many Tempo Royales," and there was and the people rejoiced.

[Azrael]

Just now, taiiat said:

you can dump a pretty low amount of money into a Hatchback and have a great low cost vehicle that's fun to drive in all kinds of situations. doesn't change that a professional vehicle does all of those things exponentially better.

And yet it isn't true that hatchbacks have "no redeeming qualities." Nobody is asking for all hatchbacks to be removed from the road. People still buy them, in fact.

 

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

item A has no redeeming qualities because item B does everything item A does, but at 10x the effectiveness.

This is not what "no redeeming qualities" means. "No redeeming qualities" means that there's literally nothing good you can say about the weapon. That there's no point whatsoever to having it. And that isn't true for most of the weapons in the game.

[Vicious_Vipa]

24 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Tell you what op, give me an example of, like, 5 meaningless weapons. I'm just curious what weapons you're thinking of.

the thing is:  I am at work and I don't even know their names right now. But this very well may even back my point ;)

@ all:  I am MR 17 and play this game almost every day for 2-4 hours and I am really trying to get much out of the frames and weapons.
For example:  I try to make use of every frame's powers instead of just pressing 4 and I don't like things that just incapacitate all enemies by pressing one button - I even despise things like Heavy Caliber because I want pinpoint accuracy - even if that means to miss out on damage.  And I would never tell someone to bring a Trinity of Frost or whatever. If a mission is too difficult,  fine!  lets try again.  Thats finally a challenge!  
So I am not guilty of dull playing and only aiming for maximum damage.

And yet I am sort of "saturated" and bored by the huge number of weapons which all (or mostly)  don't really stand out in any way.   Sorry, I really got the impression that the DEVS just keep adding them in order to give the "collectors and completers" new food.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Vicious_Vipa

[Chipputer]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

This is not what "no redeeming qualities" means. "No redeeming qualities" means that there's literally nothing good you can say about the weapon. That there's no point whatsoever to having it. And that isn't true for most of the weapons in the game.

Bearing in mind that some weapons are literally direct upgrades to others, I think you're not giving it a fair, honest look.

What reason do I have to use a Karak when I can just pick up a Braton Prime?
Why use any other burst rifles when I can just pick up a Burston Prime and get pretty much everything in one package?
Why use Paris Prime or any non-Rakta Cernos when I can just pick up a Dread?
Why use a Scindo Prime when I can just use Galatine Prime?
Why use any dual sword when I can pick up a Dual Kamas Prime or Prisma Dual Cleavers?
Why use any longsword when I can just pick up a Broken-War?
Why use Silva and Aegis when Ack and Brunt literally outclasses it in pretty much every way?
Why use any dual-pistol when I can get accuracy, crit, status, fire rate, and fast reload with AkStiletto Prime?

Lest this get old, I'll end this here (I also need to get some sleep). The point is, there are many instances of weapons outclassing others, directly. Damage types be damned, often the weapon that outclasses the others performs so much better as to outperform the other weapons in instances where it's technically at a disadvantage!

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Why use any dual-pistol when I can get accuracy, crit, status, fire rate, and fast reload with AkStiletto Prime?

There are so many dual pistols that are great and fun to use. Twin grakatas, akmagnus, akvasto, dual toxocyst, telos akbolto, and twin kohmak are all great fun in some way that's at least slightly different than the others. Hell, even the wraith twin staplers are amusing once modded.

 

10 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Why use any other burst rifles when I can just pick up a Burston Prime and get pretty much everything in one package?

You must be joking. Dex sybaris is miles better. And I prefer the feel of the tiberon to the burston prime.

 

11 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Why use Paris Prime or any non-Rakta Cernos when I can just pick up a Dread?

The mutalist cernos is powerful and unique, and very fun to use.

 

13 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Why use Silva and Aegis when Ack and Brunt literally outclasses it in pretty much every way?

Well, fashionframe comes to mind, but of course you picked one of the forgotten children of warframe. Some weapons need buffing, for sure. And melee weapons have less to distinguish themselves with.

But the point is that *most* weapons are not without redeeming qualities. There are reasons to use the vectis over the vectis prime. There are even reasons to use the marelok over the vaykor marelok. The grinlok is outclassed by many weapons, but it feels good and is fun to use. Saying that a weapon has no redeeming qualities just because another weapon does more damage is basically saying that you don't play for fun, but only to do "the most dps." I play to have fun, and if a weapon is fun and interesting, or works well for some unusual build, then I'd call that a redeeming quality.

Oh, and the galatine prime is badly designed and does way too much damage. I hate the idea that DE basically said "we don't want any of these other weapons to have any chance at competing dps-wise." Still, I rarely use it. I like my whips.

[DimkaTsv]

27 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Tell you what op, give me an example of, like, 5 meaningless weapons. I'm just curious what weapons you're thinking of.

OK... Almost all dual dagger! They are... Meanless... I like that weapon type, but... Low damage, low crir, crit damage, low status, even low atk speed and only one target hitiing!!! How it can be used? Plasma Sword and Dark Sword are also, ABSOLUTELY USELESS!!! 

In secondary weapon... Akbolto (telos also) (No, it can be good weapon... But really half-auto type of shooting and 10.0 sps at base?! Synoid Gammakor... I know it is pretty nice weapon... But after rework you should take 2 mods at least to not got out from ammo (and that kills potentional damage)... 

Primary weapons: flux rifle and Dera (corpus lab), Karak, Daikyu, Paracyst

Or you will chose these weapons if you have:

Nikana Prime, Galatin Prime

Vaykor Marelok, Leks Prime, Brakk e.t.c.

Tigris Prime, Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, Rakta Cernos???

Tell me plz, and after that repeat, that ingame weapon have a balance

[DimkaTsv]

15 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

The mutalist cernos is powerful and unique, and very fun to use.

You made me fun... 

Status bow?! Yes it have Gas cloud, but that cloud have static damage which cann't be boosted!

 

Ohh... Yes i am only 10 rank and really waiting for time, i achieve 12 at least (13 better)... I don't like tonkor by reasons (not by weapon type)... I also love unstandart weapons, but it really bad, when weapons, you love are outclassed by many of other weapons...

Edited September 29, 2016 by DimkaTsv
Addition

[Azrael]

First of all, after re-reading the op, it's clear @Vicious_Vipa meant newer weapons, not older ones. He (or she) specifically compared "meaningless" weapons to "older weapons with 5-6 forma on them." Combined with the title, it's clear that this thread is meant to be about new weapons that aren't enough powercreep to convince OP to abandon old favorites. In that case. most newer weapons actually do have a place and some kind of standout mechanic or stat, and those that don't have threads devoted to them asking for buffs.

Second, @DimkaTsv, you completely missed the part where some people enjoy weapons that aren't OP like the tonkor. Just because a weapon doesn't do as much on-paper dps as another weapon, that doesn't mean it's "absolutely useless." That's ridiculous hyperbole. The mk-1 braton can do anything on the starchart, and most sortie missions. No weapon is useless. And many weapons are outclassed dps-wise but are still fun or interesting. To paraphrase (and slightly re-word) my dad's favorite saying: there are no boring weapons, only boring players. Okay, so that's not totally true, but you get the point! If you are willing to have an open mind and actually play for fun, you may find that many of these "useless" weapons are actually pretty ok!

Or you could just use the tonkor for everything, and then complain because the game is so boring. What a surprise!

 

4 minutes ago, DimkaTsv said:

You made me fun... 

Status bow?! Yes it have Gas cloud, but that cloud have static damage which cann't be boosted!

 

Ohh... Yes i am only 10 rank and really waiting for time, i achieve 12 at least (13 better)... I don't like tonkor by reasons (not by weapon type)... I also love unstandart weapons, but it really bad, when weapons, you love are outclassed by many of other weapons...

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but you don't have any idea what you're talking about here. The mutalist cernos's cloud damage is affected by mods, can proc the statuses that are on the weapon, and can be an effective method of stripping armor and killing. They also work well with gas damage. You should probably at very least look a weapon up on the wiki before you declare it useless.

[Zaniel_Aus]

They are trying to develop side grades with the new weapons having extra abilities rather than power creep. Sometimes they hit the mark (Pox are actually good for specific targets), sometimes they miss the mark horribly (Mutalist Cernos).

Yes there are plenty of totally pointless weapons like the Stradavar but there are also plenty of weapons in each class that are all worth using. I mean look at pistols:

Akstiletto Prime, Lex Prime, Vaykor Marelok, Brakk, Sonicor, Staticor, Atomos, Akjagara, Despair, Hikou Prime, Pox, all play pretty differently and are all top flight weapons with different purposes. You could argue at least 4-5 other pistols are also worth using and sitting at 80-90% of the power/value level of their top cousins (eg Mara Detron, Pyrana, Akzani, Twin Grakata). You also get a few weird weapons that have unique uses like clearly Nullifier fields or such.

That's not a bad range of weaponry.

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

sometimes they miss the mark horribly (Mutalist Cernos).

While I appreciate what you're saying in your post, you're quite wrong about the mutalist cernos. It's quite strong.

 

*Edit: Since there's some hatred for the mutie cernos in here, I thought I'd hit yall up with some truth bombs, wiki style.

• On hitting an enemy or an object, the Mutalist Cernos's spore will create a small Toxin cloud that deals damage and status effects to any enemy within its radius. This cloud lasts for 10 seconds.
  • The spore cloud deals 5 Toxin damage per second modified by any base damage and elemental damage mods installed on the weapon.
  • The cloud's primary damage is of the same damage type(s) as the elements installed on the weapon, with the innate toxin damage combining with them last, similarly to other pure elemental weapons.
  • Each tick from the cloud has a 100% chance to proc a Toxin DoT with each stack displayed separately to the cloud's larger primary damage ticks. There's also an additional chance with each primary damage tick to proc an installed elemental status effect.
  • The forced toxin proc DoT is calculated as normal; 50% of the spore's base damage adjusted by base damage mods. Unmodified this is 2.5 Toxin damage per second stacks (displayed rounded down) in addition to the cloud's primary damage ticks. Since toxin procs last 8 seconds, and the proc is refreshed every second of the 10 second cloud duration, the toxin DoT will last a maximum of 18 seconds from the initial spore cloud damage tick.
  • Since the spore cloud base damage is pure toxin a special case exists where increasing the toxin damage of the Mutalist Cernos, by adding Infected Clip for example, counts as a base damage increase for the toxin proc damage calculation, whether or not it is combined with other elements.

• While the cloud effect is similar to the Torid, the clouds are smaller and can sometimes spread between enemies.
• In addition to two arrows being fired off at once when using Split Chamber, two toxin spores will also be fired at whatever the arrows hit.
• The Mutalist Cernos does not appear to have punch through, but its projectiles still retain its rag-doll effect and subsequent collateral damage to enemies behind.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Lord_Azrael

[Azrael]

4 minutes ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

Yes there are plenty of totally pointless weapons like the Stradavar

Oh, jeez, I missed this one! You may be unaware of this, but the stradavar was buffed. In single fire mode it gets decent stats now, and hits hard enough to justify messing with it. It's still not top tier, but it's fun regardless. Personally the firerate in single mode is slightly too slow for me, it doesn't match my natural click rate very well. But I still slapped some forma on it, and I don't regret it.

[DimkaTsv]

7 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Second, @DimkaTsv, you completely missed the part where some people enjoy weapons that aren't OP like the tonkor.  And many weapons are outclassed dps-wise but are still fun or interesting. To paraphrase (and slightly re-word) my dad's favorite saying: there are no boring weapons, only boring players. 

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but you don't have any idea what you're talking about here. The mutalist cernos's cloud damage is affected by mods, can proc the statuses that are on the weapon, and can be an effective method of stripping armor and killing. They also work well with gas damage. You should probably at very least look a weapon up on the wiki before you declare it useless.

I didn't missed it.. i am like bows and sniper rifles... (And some other weapons too) I built a rule for myself... Don't use an OP weapon... I am ready to break my rule only for Galatin Prime (be honest, only because Tempo Royale) and Rakta Cernos (because it is pretty damn good bow) 

 

I knew about stat effect affecting Mutalist Cernos passive, but tell me, how effective it can be? I really don't think that it is a weapon, you'll want to use as primary (AND, i didnt said it is useless weapon)

[Azrael]

Just now, DimkaTsv said:

I knew about stat effect affecting Mutalist Cernos passive, but tell me, how effective it can be? I really don't think that it is a weapon, you'll want to use as primary (AND, i didnt said it is useless weapon)

 

23 minutes ago, DimkaTsv said:

Status bow?! Yes it have Gas cloud, but that cloud have static damage which cann't be boosted!

You're contradicting yourself. You said that the cloud has static damage that can't be boosted, that's just wrong. As for how effective it can be, I quite like it! It strips armor, procs nasty gas procs, and kills effectively in many situations. It works especially well in combination with saryn's spores. I mod mine for max reload, and never charge the shots. I use arrow mutation, and just spam the trigger and spray clouds everywhere. It's very satisfying.

 

5 minutes ago, DimkaTsv said:

I built a rule for myself... Don't use an OP weapon

 

34 minutes ago, DimkaTsv said:

Or you will chose these weapons if you have:

Nikana Prime, Galatin Prime

Vaykor Marelok, Leks Prime, Brakk e.t.c.

Tigris Prime, Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, Rakta Cernos???

You seemed to imply that you see no reason to use "these weapons" instead of op weapons such as the tonkor and synoid simulor. So I don't get it, do you see value in "lesser" weapons (which you called absolutely useless) or not?

Anyway, as I said before, this thread is supposed to be about newer weapons that aren't stronger than old ones, as far as I can tell. That's why op titled it "flood of meaningless weapons" instead of "older weapons are meaningless."

[DimkaTsv]

19 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

 

You're contradicting yourself. You said that the cloud has static damage that can't be boosted, that's just wrong. As for how effective it can be, I quite like it! It strips armor, procs nasty gas procs, and kills effectively in many situations. It works especially well in combination with saryn's spores. I mod mine for max reload, and never charge the shots. I use arrow mutation, and just spam the trigger and spray clouds everywhere. It's very satisfying.

 

 

You seemed to imply that you see no reason to use "these weapons" instead of op weapons such as the tonkor and synoid simulor. So I don't get it, do you see value in "lesser" weapons (which you called absolutely useless) or not?

Anyway, as I said before, this thread is supposed to be about newer weapons that aren't stronger than old ones, as far as I can tell. That's why op titled it "flood of meaningless weapons" instead of "older weapons are meaningless."

1. Sorry... I am Russian and on russian wiki was said that cloud damage cann't be boosted. I was wrong

2. I don't said that ALL weapon except these are useless... There are top weapons (i listed some), nice weapons, situative weapons, doubtful weapons, and useless weapons in game...

And yes i see value in SOME of nice, situative and maybe doubtful weapons... But i don't know what can i do with useless weapon

And from all weapon i listed, i have only Nikana Prime, but i don't love her much... (Maybe because stances)

3. Yep, you are sure here... But not i was who created a topic... I only printed my opinion here 

I completely agree that old weapon shouldn't be derelicted by stat...

I agree that Prime should be better than base version of weapon, but i think that making base version of new weapon more balanced comparing to other weapons of such type would be a good idea

Edited September 29, 2016 by DimkaTsv
Addition