The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Loss:
We lost one good Vacuum.

Gained:
all 4 sentinels now suck.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Stop trolling. Use basic sampling and observation skills. Most of the people who went "complaining" (as you put it) on the forums about the new vaccuum nerf dislike "the suck within" update. Amplify it to the rest of the community, and you'll get the 80%-ish we are talking about. The only ones who are fine with this new update are the guys who don't play the game anymore or trolls who are just playing forumframe endgame (since the lack of an actual endgame content in the actual game).

you may want to take a look at my stats, as i'm not only in game, but STILL constantly playing, and again, I enjoy the new update. Hell, i'm logged in right now, just did sorties, been helping new players adjust to the game, and interacting with people in region to asnwer questions about mechanics not covered within the wiki. you may want to not use blanket statements to give validation to your posts, as it's not working.

 

much like the other bozo from earlier, you're undermining your own point here.

Avid carrier user, still completely ok and happy about the change. most of the people within region that i've spoken with across the entirety of the day, are very pleased by these changes, myself amongst them and here i am offering my positive feedback to the change, as well as giving my reasoning why.

[Ailissa]

Actually the majority are silent.

 

Forums tend to only see a small portion of any given games player base. 

 

The thing there is, even though people may not say anything, what they do in game will change based on things that happen. People may not say anything about vacuum nerf but, as DE are saying 80% of us used Carrier, a number of those may switch sentinels due to the nerf.

 

Developers don't tend to do drastic changes based on the forums regardless of what anyone thinks. Be around the industry long enough and you get to meet people and talk to developers of various companies. Most changes happen due to trends in game. If a vast majority are seen using one thing then changes happen to try and push them in another direction.

 

Very, very rarely will forum posts cause major changes. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

I'm with him in a fissure right now lmao

An engaging gameplay isn't it? So immersive that you have time to read forums between running from one pile of loot to another. Gameplay 10 out of 10.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo

[RiouHotaru]

5 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Uh, what? Are you suggesting that vacuum actually got buffed because each of the 7 sentinals (not counting primes/prismas) have 6m range and 6*7 is 42? You do realize this has no relation to what's going on at all, right? Nobody has a 42m vacuum.

@Aurea_Hiigara's scenario is apt because DE saw that we wanted our children/sentinals to have some vacuum too, so they nerfed vacuum and gave a worse version to every sentinal. Now everyone gets vacuum, but nobody can get their old vacuum anymore.

 

*Edit: you said that the change is only less individually. But individually is all that matters, because you can only take one sentinal at a time. If my current sentinal does a bad job of vacuuming, it is no consolation to me that I could use a different sentinal and get an equally bad vacuum.

The statement that "my current sentinel does a bad job of vacuuming" is an opinion.  Not fact.  My Helios, which originally could not vaccum at all, can now vacuum in a 6m range.  That's already a marked improvement.  Also, this goes into the "my playstyle vs. yours" argument, which is entirely subjective.

5 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

It's hilarious if someone talking about math doesn't understand the fact Vacuum works in a sphere and not on a line. So if the radius is changed with a factor of 2, the volume of the sphere changes with a factor of 8. That's math.
So yeah... you are wrong here and not the other guy. ;-)

The sphere portion only matters if drops are taking place anywhere but right in front of you.  Which matters what few airbourne units exist in this game.  90-ish percent of the enemies you fight are on the ground at your level, barring a few tilesets which include massively uneven terrain.  (Earth, etc).  Everything else is terrain you're going to traverse because it's on-route, and therefore the fact you take an extra second or two to pick up something on a path you were already going to travel doesn't matter.

[rngd444]

Two things show how awfully bad this change is: the first one is how some items aren't instantly affected by vacuum since the resource rework (even as the host) and the other one is how bad vacuum works as a client in general; this will now result in it not functioning at all in some instances where the host is further away from you or simply has a not-so-great connection.

 

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

This update isn't about finding what's better, though. At least not what's better for the individual player's farming needs. [...] The Vacuum Within is about finding what's fair, specifically what's fair to the wide variety of tools in the Companion category.

It's simple, really. Either all those other companions are substantially inferior or they just can't provide a similar effect on the overall playing experience by making it more smooth. Take the Chesa, for example, which still isn't working and therefore, doesn't provide any real incentive to use it at all. Kavats suffer severely from getting stuck all the time since day one but apparently, all feedback gets ignored. Instead of punishing 80% of their players, they could, you know, work on a real solution and include all of them at once. No one forced them to deliver this right now.

 

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

As to why they decreased Vacuum to 6 metres from 12, I don't have an answer. Neither does DE, and they're comfortable telling us that. It's in development. This update is the first step of a work in progress, and they're making that very clear. It makes sense that they have to isolate particular elements in order to evaluate how Vacuum is used and how to proceed with it. [...] We're probably going to see a lot of back-and-forth changes to how,  where, and how much Vacuum works in the next few days.

Except that it doesn't (make sense). They obviously have all the data they need since 80% were running it before. It's just that they seemingly try to reduce anything what's helping players everytime they change things for whatever twisted reason there is to see if the backlash won't be as big, so they can keep it that way. And forgive me my pessimism but they have this big 'work in progress' sign stamped on more things than one could count and I'd be surprised to see more than one change to the range if they think enough people shouted loud enough (and actually 'heard' it..).

 

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

This is the downside to a continuously-updated game. We are privy to the strange changes, bugs, fixes and constant tweaking and retweaking of all aspects of the game as we play. One thing DE is doing well is that they let us continue playing the game while they work on these changes. Could you imagine if they just turned off Vacuum unti, they gave us the finished product? Or if they shut down the servers entirely until X problem was fixed?

This is the downside of their mindset. They could've just kept the range and appplied it to all Sentinels or kept the 'extended' range exclusively on Carrier (but that wouldn't give enough forced 'incentive' to try something new, heh). If they were aware of known the issues bound to Vacuum, they wouldn't even dare to reduce it in the first place. Also, they want us to 'test their beta', so neither would it make sense to turn things off nor is it 'giving' in any way not to. This is merely their business model at work and whether they do well at the moment, I'm not so sure about that.

Besides, I highly doubt that a lot of people will actually go all-out and say "hey, this totally still garbage Sentinel will be my choice now because Carrier is meh, too!" Might as well just pick a Kavat since Vacuum won't work 80% (heh) of the time and because they're superior in every wa--- oh wait, still bugged as hell. Yeah well, if they actually did work on those other construction sites as advertised, we'd have those alleged choices.

[NeonNemesis]

12 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

But this is wrong.  This is so wrong in fact I actually logged in to point this out.  The fact you're so grossly misrepresenting what's going on is disappointing to say the least.

Let's make this analogy actually work, without misusing math, shall we?

You make 500k a year.  Wife and 2 kids currently make nothing.

Boss decides to be generous and give everyone a yearly salary equal to half what you made (See what I did there?  The change from 12m to 6m is HALF, not this BS fraction you tried to pass as representative of the balance change.  Math goddamnit).

This means that you, individually, make 250k.  A shame, because it's less.

But now the wife and 2 kids make 250k each.  Meaning the total income for the entire family is now a whopping 1,000,000.

Individually, the change is less.  But taken as a whole, it's an overall improvement.

And that is what happened here.

Misusing math???

Lmao people did the calculations already, the area you have now is somewhere around 1/14 of what you had, so you and your family don't even get the 75k each, much less the 250k, you each get something more in the lines of 36k,, which nets your whole family somewhere around 143k a year, that's how circles work, the outside area of it it is way bigger than the inside.

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, RiouHotaru said:

The sphere portion only matters if drops are taking place anywhere but right in front of you.  Which matters what few airbourne units exist in this game.  90-ish percent of the enemies you fight are on the ground at your level, barring a few tilesets which include massively uneven terrain.  (Earth, etc).  Everything else is terrain you're going to traverse because it's on-route, and therefore the fact you take an extra second or two to pick up something on a path you were already going to travel doesn't matter.

So what? You are still wrong.
So let's talk about a surface. Vacuum works in a circle. Changing the radius with the factor of 2 changes the surface of a circle with the factor of 4.
It's still math and you, my friend, did it wrong. ^^

[Aurea_Hiigara]

17 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

But this is wrong.  This is so wrong in fact I actually logged in to point this out.  The fact you're so grossly misrepresenting what's going on is disappointing to say the least.

Let's make this analogy actually work, without misusing math, shall we?

You make 500k a year.  Wife and 2 kids currently make nothing.

Boss decides to be generous and give everyone a yearly salary equal to half what you made (See what I did there?  The change from 12m to 6m is HALF, not this BS fraction you tried to pass as representative of the balance change.  Math goddamnit).

This means that you, individually, make 250k.  A shame, because it's less.

But now the wife and 2 kids make 250k each.  Meaning the total income for the entire family is now a whopping 1,000,000.

Individually, the change is less.  But taken as a whole, it's an overall improvement.

And that is what happened here.

You want math that completely accurately describes what happened?

Fine.

1.33 x 3.1415 (pi) x 12 x 12 x 12 = 7219,92096 cubic meters on Carrier before the change to Vacuum.

1.33 x 3.1415 (pi) x 6 x 6 x 6 = 902,49012 cubic meters on all sentinels after the change to Vacuum.

I'm gonna round them off for this next part.

The new area of effect is 12% of what we used to have. It hasn't been cut in half. It hasn't been cut in quarters. It has been reduced HALF OF HALF OF HALF. One eighth of what it used to be.

[Waxil]

1 hour ago, Silvus-Sol said:

I have an idea. Let's remove Serration, but give each weapon an innate 30% damage increase.

Loss:

1 mod of 165% damage

Gained:

+30% damage for each of the 94 primaries.

94 > 1 so this would be a great change.

 

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!

 

[NeithanDiniem]

6 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

An engaging gameplay isn't it? So immersive that you have time to read forums between running from one pile of loot to another. Gameplay 10 out of 10.

Im sorry, you are assuming we even need to give a damn about a few resources and credits. You keep doing that assume thing.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Hell, i'm logged in right now, just did sorties, been helping new players adjust to the game, and interacting with people in region to asnwer questions about mechanics not covered within the wiki. you may want to not use blanket statements to give validation to your posts, as it's not working.

Which part of helping new players and interacting with people in region is an actual gameplay during which you have to use your sentinel at all? That's globalframe, forumframe, helpingframe and not warframe. Never warframe. Exactly what I'm talking about. While supposedly "playing" the game you have time to go to the forums and read flamethreads, You are not engaged in the gameplay. You just hang out with your warframe running in the background - that's it.

Another point about fissures: fissures don't push anything in this game to the limits - they're incapable of doing that. You don't need any specific gear to beat the. You could go into the fissure missions with an MK furax no problem - you'd probably meet an ember that would sleep-cheese you through it just fine. Fissures are a poor excuse for a gameplay. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Azrael]

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

much like the other bozo from earlier, you're undermining your own point here.

Who is that? Who's the bozo? Please, tell me, since you are apparently determined to flamebait.

[Waxil]

25 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

But this is wrong.  This is so wrong in fact I actually logged in to point this out.  The fact you're so grossly misrepresenting what's going on is disappointing to say the least.

Let's make this analogy actually work, without misusing math, shall we?

You make 500k a year.  Wife and 2 kids currently make nothing.

Boss decides to be generous and give everyone a yearly salary equal to half what you made (See what I did there?  The change from 12m to 6m is HALF, not this BS fraction you tried to pass as representative of the balance change.  Math goddamnit).

This means that you, individually, make 250k.  A shame, because it's less.

But now the wife and 2 kids make 250k each.  Meaning the total income for the entire family is now a whopping 1,000,000.

Individually, the change is less.  But taken as a whole, it's an overall improvement.

And that is what happened here.

Lol only if you could use every sentinel at the same time and all the sentinel abilities that aren't vacuum weren't laughable useless.    It would be more like if they cut your salary to to 35k a year if you actually know how to do math and know what volume actually is.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Waxil

[Silvus-Sol]

Or they could just give it back the 12m range. There was no real reason to lower it in the first place. Making Vacuum universal is fixing it, not buffing it, as the only real problem Vacuum ever had was that it was Carrier exclusive.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Silvus-Sol

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Im sorry, you are assuming we even need to give a damn about a few resources and credits. You keep doing that assume thing.

I'm sorry that not everyone in the game is a burnout forumcitizen who kept warframe running in the background for 10k hours and has billions of everything. Should I remind you how did you get all that stuff? Ye, exactly by using the carrier that picked your resourses for you. Cut the hypocrisy, man.

[RikerWatts]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

An engaging gameplay isn't it? So immersive that you have time to read forums between running from one pile of loot to another. Gameplay 10 out of 10.

Maybe it's because in my 92 days of playing this actually fun game I attained several good gears and learned a lot. Even if Carrier Prime got it's vac nerfed, you should be happy that you're not restrained to JUST carrier.
Albeit other sentinels could use some modern-day rework (DJIN PLS) but I am sticking with my carrier for three reasons.
1. I spent plat on it's appearance and I like how it looks.
2. AMMO MUTATION   B O Y S
3. I'm lazy

But judging from your narrow, negative, pessimistic statement that almost sounds like me about Hydroid then well I can introduce you the way to uninstall.

 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Which part of helping new players and interacting with people in region is an actual gameplay during which you have to use your sentinel at all? That's globalframe, forumframe, helpingframe and not warframe. Never warframe. Exactly what I'm talking about. While supposedly "playing" the game you have time to go to the forums and read flamethreads, You are not engaged in the gameplay. You just hang out with your warframe tabbed - that's it.

Another point about fissures: fissures don't push anything in this game to the limits - they're incapable of doing that. You don't need any specific gear to beat the. You could go into the fissure missions with an MK furax no problem - you'd probably meet an ember that would sleep-cheese you through it just fine. Fissures are a poor excuse for a gameplay. 

we aren't talking about fissures, so irrelevant. and i'm loving that you blatantly ignored that i did sorties, and as well as in tandem with what neithan said people who are actively playing the game, right now are enjoying the changes to the sentinels thus are not here complaining or supporting the new changes because again, playing the game.

Also, note that several times throughout the thread i've mentioned playtesting the new changes in with various sentinels and frames in combination with various game modes to see how drastic the changes are, which they aren't too bad as you only really need to move slightly more to gain the same end result thus increasing the risk/reward aspect of gameplay.

but hey, what do i know, right?

 

1 minute ago, Azrael said:

Who is that? Who's the bozo? Please, tell me, since you are apparently determined to flamebait.

that would be you, who contradicted your own points that you attempted to make and thus left the thread, which begs the question: why are you still here?

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

that would be you, who contradicted your own points that you attempted to make and thus left the thread,

I never contradicted my points, you just refused to acknowledge what I was saying. I left because I was tired of your flamebaiting and being disrespectful, and I came back because you hadn't posted in a while and I wanted to make a point about something else.

[Silvus-Sol]

22 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

The sphere portion only matters if drops are taking place anywhere but right in front of you.  Which matters what few airbourne units exist in this game.  90-ish percent of the enemies you fight are on the ground at your level, barring a few tilesets which include massively uneven terrain.  (Earth, etc).  Everything else is terrain you're going to traverse because it's on-route, and therefore the fact you take an extra second or two to pick up something on a path you were already going to travel doesn't matter.

Would one of those airborne units include my Warframe? Because I tend to be airborne quite a bit in this game. Also, on-route doesn't mean much on some of the more open maps during some of the more open ended mission types like survival or excavation.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Silvus-Sol

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Im sorry, you are assuming we even need to give a damn about a few resources and credits. You keep doing that assume thing.

Just cut the crap guys. Cut the crap.
 

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Azrael said:

I never contradicted my points, you just refused to acknowledge what I was saying. I left because I was tired of your flamebaiting and being disrespectful, and I came back because you hadn't posted in a while and I wanted to make a point about something else.

allow me to point something out to you, again.

"it's not about speed" preceded by "parkouring at mach 10"

in case you're not aware of it, Mach is a measurement of SPEED in relation to the sound barrier. sooooooooooo.

say it out loud with me: self countering of points.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Just cut the crap guys. Cut the crap.
 

feel free to take a screenshot of MY usage, if we're gonna play that game.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

6 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

Maybe it's because in my 92 days of playing this actually fun game I attained several good gears and learned a lot. Even if Carrier Prime got it's vac nerfed, you should be happy that you're not restrained to JUST carrier.

Great, now I'm restrained from using the carrier. Magnificent trade off (not really). Now I'm forced to puck up items instead of having an option to play the way I want. Great trade off (not really).

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

feel free to take a screenshot of MY usage, if we're gonna play that game.

I think I don't care anymore at this point.