Make Conclave More Rewarding

[--RV--Meta]

 

Conclave is already rewarding, this is true. You can get exclusive skins and some utility mods that work in both Conclave and PvE using Conclave Standing. What I propose is that Conclave should be even more rewarding, however! Examples abound!

• Celestia Armor set to go with the Syandana
• Conclave Badges of different tiers (with top badge being animated, perhaps Celestia-themed)
• Friggin' Dual-Nikanas! (not necessarily Teshin's set, but A SET of dual-Nikana's would be pleasant and quite rewarding)
• Conclave Warframe skins! (like the weapon skins, but for Warframes! My Tron fashionframe must be completed~)
• Conclave Arrow Skins (because laser beam arrows! pew pew!)
• More "Cross-Over" Mods (mods that can be used both in and outside of Conclave)
• Maybe Some Arcanes as Weekly Conclave Reward? (could be from the current pool or entirely unique Arcanes only found through Conclave)
• Teshin Specters (Obviously)
• Teshin Noggle (Honestly)
• Conclave Operator Apparel (I don't see how this isn't a thing already)
• Conclave Companion Apparel (Conkavat, Conkubrow, Continel?)
• Conclave Liset Skins (Could they be any cooler?)
• HONOOORR!

Spoiler

• 

 

I'm sure there's plenty more that could be added here, but that's just for starters--just to put it out there that there's already a fair amount that could be done to make Conclave as a whole a bit more rewarding to participate in.

I'm aware that a good portion of that would be somewhat time-consuming to be created and added in (as anything in game development would be), and maybe the staff that would normally be working on it are bogged down in TWW stuff...but there it is.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1. No gameplay-impacting rewards from Conclave.

2. Cross-over mods sound nice, PROVIDED they have PvE sources too.

3. Skins... sure, go for it.

It's nice that we have conclave for the people who appreciate it and all, but it has detracted enough from PvE IMO.

[Irorone]

Honestly till PVP finds a nice balance, which is likely never cuz they're trying to balance magic space ninjas going head to head, the only way they could reasonably make it more rewarding is to make it so you only have to play a small handful of matches to get your daily rep.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Irorone

[--RV--Meta]

18 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. No gameplay-impacting rewards from Conclave.

2. Cross-over mods sound nice, PROVIDED they have PvE sources too.

3. Skins... sure, go for it.

It's nice that we have conclave for the people who appreciate it and all, but it has detracted enough from PvE IMO.

1. Celestia Syandana alone gives +1000% to Coolness, the most important in-game stat.

2. I think some of them that already exist can only be bought with Conclave standing...feel free to fact check me though, I've not looked into it personally.

3. Right? Best skins in the game, hands-down! What beats Tron fashion? Nothing.

Because I don't work at DE, I can't say what degree of influence or pull there is between Conclave and PvE, staff and development-wise...but I don't think it's Conclave that's slowed down the release of TWW. Ultimately they decide who works on what, when, and why...I'm assuming that all hands are on deck for TWW presently, as they've stated. However the interim for me has been filled in part with getting into Conclave...so I'd enjoy seeing improvements in it, given that I am a participant. None of this is strange. ;)

6 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Honestly till PVP finds a nice balance, which is likely never cuz they're trying to balance magic space ninjas going head to head, the only way could make it more rewarding is to make it so you only have to play a small handful of matches to get your daily rep.

Balance is a constant struggle in Conclave, yes...but what's rewarding for you isn't necessarily the same as for everyone else. For you the prize might be easy access to gaining standing from dailies/weeklies, for me it's having something to invest that standing in. :>

[DiabolusUrsus]

18 minutes ago, Meta_Nexus said:

1. Celestia Syandana alone gives +1000% to Coolness, the most important in-game stat.

Having conclave-exclusive weapons is a bad idea.

19 minutes ago, Meta_Nexus said:

2. I think some of them that already exist can only be bought with Conclave standing...feel free to fact check me though, I've not looked into it personally.

I know they exist, I'm saying the'd be acceptable as new rewards as well... PROVIDED they are accessible without playing Conclave.

[SevenLetterKWord]

2 hours ago, Meta_Nexus said:

Maybe Some Arcanes as Weekly Conclave Reward?

Good ideas all around. I particularly like this one; I would gladly choose to receive arcanes over 10x random rare resources or a random stance.

2 hours ago, Irorone said:

Honestly till PVP finds a nice balance, which is likely never cuz they're trying to balance magic space ninjas going head to head

Wonderful, I love assertions made with no evidence.
I dismiss your assertion and instead assert that Conclave is generally well balanced.

2 hours ago, Meta_Nexus said:

2. I think some of them that already exist can only be bought with Conclave standing...feel free to fact check me though, I've not looked into it personally.

Any and all content that affects PvE gameplay can be acquired from purely PvE gameplay.
In PvE, Sentients drop Conclave mods.

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, Meta_Nexus said:

Conclave is already rewarding, this is true. You can get exclusive skins and some utility mods that work in both Conclave and PvE using Conclave Standing. What I propose is that Conclave should be even more rewarding, however! ...

Some nice ideas there, +1.

 

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Having conclave-exclusive weapons is a bad idea.

I know they exist, I'm saying the'd be acceptable as new rewards as well... PROVIDED they are accessible without playing Conclave.

That's really only an issue if said weapons are the newest iteration of power creep or something completely new (e.g. something unique like Dual Nikanas with no alternative) and everyone has to get them.

Other than that, I don't think it's necessarily true anymore. For those who don't like playing Conclave, there's now Lunaro to gather the reputation.

And they did the right thing with the Riv skins by making them available both for standing and in the market. They could also make them tradeable like other syndicate weapons. So if you really abhor anything related to facing other players, you'd still be able to keep playing PvE, trade for plat, and get your hands on them that way.

 

2 hours ago, Irorone said:

Honestly till PVP finds a nice balance, which is likely never cuz they're trying to balance magic space ninjas going head to head, the only way they could reasonably make it more rewarding is to make it so you only have to play a small handful of matches to get your daily rep.

What do you think is still unbalanced? Please open a topic so we can have a look at it.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Kontrollo

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. No gameplay-impacting rewards from Conclave.

It's a syndicate and part of the game.

Quote

2. Cross-over mods sound nice, PROVIDED they have PvE sources too.

We have a little conundrum here. See, SpringLoaded Broadhead is a Conclave mod only obtainable trough Conclave standing and can be used in PvE. Sentients drop PvP mods (much to the chargrin of anyone farming for Vengeful Reveant).

The sensible solution here would be to make End of match rewards (which are RNG rewards) be drops in PvE where it makes sense (like Techs dropping the Supra mod Directed Convergence) and Conclave Standing rewards being Conclave standing rewards only (in line with the other Syndicates) and Conclave standing mods dropped by sentients replaced with End of Match reward mods that don't fit on any enemy or reward table thematically.

5 hours ago, Irorone said:

Honestly till PVP finds a nice balance, which is likely never cuz they're trying to balance magic space ninjas going head to head, the only way they could reasonably make it more rewarding is to make it so you only have to play a small handful of matches to get your daily rep.

PvP is very balanced by this point, pretty much everything can be countered. You don't actually need to play a lot of matches, if you do your challenges you can do at minimum 8 matches per day (two for each mode and if the challenges can be completed in 1 match) and the weekly mission gives a LOT of standing. Conclave Standing is way easier to get than Simaris or The Six standings.

 

Now on Topic:

6 hours ago, Meta_Nexus said:

• Celestia Armor set to go with the Syandana

With fires that require challenge completion? sure thing.

Quote

• Conclave Badges of different tiers (with top badge being animated, perhaps Celestia-themed)

Simple:

Just one Badge that you get for 100k standing. You can buy it many times, each time you buy it again it changes, and upgrading badge like the Stratos essentially.

Quote

• Friggin' Dual-Nikanas! (not necessarily Teshin's set, but A SET of dual-Nikana's would be pleasant and quite rewarding)

From here we have 3 options:

-Do like Simaris and offer an untradable blueprint with the alternative being the built weapon for platinum on the market

-Do like The Six and offer a tradable built weapon that can't be acquired outside of Conclave.

-Two Twin-Nikanas: Twin-Nikana acquired from TWW or some other PvE quest featuring Teshin, and a Dragon Twin-Nikana bp/weapon (direct upgrade to Twin-Nikana like Dragon Nikana is to Nikana) acquired trough Conclave standing. Bp would be untradable and require the normal Twin-Nikana, built weapon would be tradable.

Quote

• Conclave Warframe skins! (like the weapon skins, but for Warframes! My Tron fashionframe must be completed~)

Yes. Could be a paintjob like the Inmortal skins.

Quote

• Conclave Arrow Skins (because laser beam arrows! pew pew!)

Yes.

Quote

• More "Cross-Over" Mods (mods that can be used both in and outside of Conclave)

I'm very specific on this. I think all Conclave mods should be usable in PvE, with this criteria:

-End of Match rewards be obtainable in PvE in droptables that make sense (as I mentioned above) to somewhat throw a bone to people who don't like Conclave and don't like or can't trade.

-Conclave Standing Offerings being only obtainable trough Conclave standing or Trade.

Quote

• Maybe Some Arcanes as Weekly Conclave Reward? (could be from the current pool or entirely unique Arcanes only found through Conclave)

Well, could be added to the Stance reward slot, so you could get an arcane, a vengeful reveant or some useless junk like Gemini Cross or Sundering Weave.

Quote

• Teshin Noggle (Honestly)

50k standing and also available at the Market on the Noggle section for platinum.

Quote

• Conclave Operator Apparel (I don't see how this isn't a thing already)
• Conclave Companion Apparel (Conkavat, Conkubrow, Continel?)
• Conclave Liset Skins (Could they be any cooler?)

All of this YES.

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Witchydragon]

Too many people already cheese the game by giving each other free kills to get a ton of standing, and if more cosmetic/pve usable rewards get put into Teshin's reward pool then there will just be more people who come in and farm dailies and quit/force other people to not play the game.

By adding these in, people who already hate pvp and talk about it like it was made by the devil will come in, farm standing, and tell other people to not play the game normally and throw fits when someone does. Conclave can become more rewarding when more players start playing it to play Conclave. This means bringing in new players or players that have never tried pvp, and DE has to actually promote the idea that the game should be played instead of farmed. 

 

 

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

 DE has to actually promote the idea that the game should be played instead of farmed. 

By this point that would be an uphill battle, but I agree. I think that needs to come from the PvE side by making at least high level planets feature difficult enemies instead of the same enemies with higher stats. But I doubt DE will pull that off in the near future, seeing as how old Stalker, while not the brightest bulb in the box, was far more deadlier and somewhat challenging than Shadow Stalker, who only has that artificial difficulty Damage reduction, which means jack if you can oneshot him anyway.

[--RV--Meta]

7 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

Too many people already cheese the game by giving each other free kills to get a ton of standing

 

 

As frequently as I play Conclave (a couple to a few times per session at this point) I hardly ever run across this scenario. To be quite perfectly honest *I* used to engage in that sort of business when I first got into Conclave because I was just in it to grab the Celestia Syandana and get out, but now I play it legitimately perhaps ~98% of the time, with the other couple of percentage being the odd time someone asks me to help them out because they're not great or just starting out--usually in Lunaro.

7 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

By adding these in, people who already hate pvp and talk about it like it was made by the devil will come in, farm standing, and tell other people to not play the game normally and throw fits when someone does.

 

 

There's not much that can be done about those sorts of players in any game. Just leave them to their own devices and play the way you want to, that's all you can do.

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 PvE 

This is about Conclave though, Conclave. ;)

[(XBOX)freakytiki3]

i horribly suck at Conclave either their is no one playing or one dude gets all the kills.

maybe i just need headshot practice

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

Make it so you don't have to consistently maintain the Celestia Syandana's lights.

[DiabolusUrsus]

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

That's really only an issue if said weapons are the newest iteration of power creep or something completely new (e.g. something unique like Dual Nikanas with no alternative) and everyone has to get them.

Other than that, I don't think it's necessarily true anymore. For those who don't like playing Conclave, there's now Lunaro to gather the reputation.

For some people, it's a matter of loathing PvP in general and not the fact that they are "killing Tenno." So Lunaro isn't a catch-all solution to that issue. I disagree that it's fine as long as it's not power-creep.

15 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

It's a syndicate and part of the game.

We have a little conundrum here. See, SpringLoaded Broadhead is a Conclave mod only obtainable trough Conclave standing and can be used in PvE. Sentients drop PvP mods (much to the chargrin of anyone farming for Vengeful Reveant).

The sensible solution here would be to make End of match rewards (which are RNG rewards) be drops in PvE where it makes sense (like Techs dropping the Supra mod Directed Convergence) and Conclave Standing rewards being Conclave standing rewards only (in line with the other Syndicates) and Conclave standing mods dropped by sentients replaced with End of Match reward mods that don't fit on any enemy or reward table thematically.

PvP is very balanced by this point, pretty much everything can be countered. You don't actually need to play a lot of matches, if you do your challenges you can do at minimum 8 matches per day (two for each mode and if the challenges can be completed in 1 match) and the weekly mission gives a LOT of standing. Conclave Standing is way easier to get than Simaris or The Six standings.

It has also been treated entirely as a spin-off game mode to the extent that Scott flat-out disregarded the possibility of applying accumulated experience with PvP balance in a way that would benefit PvE. "It's part of the game" does not justify spending disproportionate amounts of time on it when it caters to a very select group of players and offers nothing but frustration to the rest of them. That's like suggesting that Wyrmius or Flappy Zephyr deserve the same amount of attention as the core PvE game.

I've got no issue with tuning the PvE drop sources of Conclave mods to make more sense, but PvP is still an absolute pain in the neck to play in spite of its balance relative to the rest of the game.

Finding matches is regularly a pain.

Getting matched with tryhards that give you flak for just trying to have a good time while you're grinding standing is a pain.

Dealing with host-client lag in a competitive setting is a pain.

Conclave has some nice rewards, and I have no problem with giving it nicer rewards, but it should not be given any reward that would compel PvE players to play conclave simply to get that reward. Conclave should be something people do because they want to do it, not because something they want is locked behind it.

I've made my way up to Typhoon, and I can tell you with certainty that getting there was the least enjoyable experience I have ever gone through with Warframe.

Maybe the opportunity to restrict player traffic with the new dedicated servers will help alleviate some of my problems with Conclave, but as it stands there is no good reason to put rewards with a significant impact on PvE - like entirely new weapons - behind PvP with no non-PvP method of acquisition.

I have no issues with a stronger PvE OVERLAP with Conclave - allow players to farm Credits/Resources/Mods, etc. through PvP... but it should be an OVERLAP where PvE remains a viable alternative.

[Witchydragon]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Getting matched with tryhards that give you flak for just trying to have a good time while you're grinding standing is a pain.

 

That's like joining a team of football players for a pickup game and saying you're there just because you just want the money that the professional players get. Of course they're going to get annoyed. 

 

(Hint. You can grind standing and no one will ever notice, unless you start saying you're only there to grind standing).

Edited October 17, 2016 by Witchydragon
Point was made more clear in a further post. However what is written still applies to other individuals and types of players.

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

That's like joining a team of football players for a pickup game and saying you're there just because you just want the money that the professional players get. Of course they're going to get annoyed. 

 

(Hint. You can grind standing and no one will ever notice, unless you start saying you're only there to grind standing).

Conclave players are not comparable to pro football players. They are playing a game, not making a living.

I don't say "I'm just here to grind standing," but players still get ticked off if they're not winning and they have someone to blame it on. What I'm saying is it's a pain in the butt when everyone expects that other players are required to take the game as seriously as they do. 

It's not every conclave player. It's not even most conclave players, but it's still a downer when you run into those types.

Taking a game so seriously that it makes it less fun for the other people involved is not something to be proud of.

My point is simple: Running into over-competitive players is a turn-off for me, and I am not somehow at fault for their disposition.

[Witchydragon]

47 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Conclave players are not comparable to pro football players. They are playing a game, not making a living.

I don't say "I'm just here to grind standing," but players still get ticked off if they're not winning and they have someone to blame it on. What I'm saying is it's a pain in the butt when everyone expects that other players are required to take the game as seriously as they do. 

It's not every conclave player. It's not even most conclave players, but it's still a downer when you run into those types.

Taking a game so seriously that it makes it less fun for the other people involved is not something to be proud of.

My point is simple: Running into over-competitive players is a turn-off for me, and I am not somehow at fault for their disposition.

Ah I see your point. Sorry if I came off as antagonizing there, but I've become so used to seeing people who play the game exclusively to gain standing for the rewards off Teshin call anyone who plays the game for fun a 'tryhard'. I understand that there are players that are arrogant pricks in match, and I can empathize with you on how they make the game less enjoyable. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Witchydragon

[DiabolusUrsus]

41 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

Ah I see your point. Sorry if I came off as antagonizing there, but I've become so used to seeing people who play the game exclusively to gain standing for the rewards off Teshin call anyone who plays the game for fun a 'tryhard'. I understand that there are players that are arrogant pricks in match, and I can empathize with you on how they make the game less enjoyable. 

I'm glad we could clear up that disconnect in understanding. :D

When it's a fairly even match and things are working smoothly, the PvP can be quite enjoyable to me. Unfortunately, fairly even matches with everything working smoothly are few and far between in my experience. 

I can also understand how players not taking a game seriously enough can make things un-fun for players who are earnestly trying to compete, and I will always be of the firm opinion that everyone has the obligation to make a reasonable effort to ensure people they play with are having a good time. 

[polarity]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Getting matched with tryhards that give you flak for just trying to have a good time while you're grinding standing is a pain.

That sounds a lot like the major glaring issues that made WoW PvP such a crock of S#&$ that it elicited not one but 7 threadnaughts in support of the initial comprehensive post about everything wrong with it (6 threads on the wow forums that hit the per thread post limit).

The root of the problem was pitting people with different playstyles against each other, which had nothing to do with PvP, as they were usually on the same team, and when you do that, you're going to end up losing players.

How that happened was because PvP gear required both Arena rating and Honor points to purchase.  The first gained by competing in Arenas, the second by getting kills in Battlegrounds.  Arena is very competitive team elimination, and requires PvP gear to get to higher ratings.  Battlegrounds are more casual, and winning revolves around objectives.

Result:  Arena players who need PvP gear for their playstyle, forced into grinding honor in Battlegrounds that they don't want to play, in a way that contributes very little to winning games.

Throw in a lot of Battleground players who don't want an objective based game mode, but just want kills without the elimination style of arena, and Battlegrounds became a complete clusterfuck, where your CTF game mode devolves into a mojority farming midfield, and complaining if anyone takes objectives, as they bring the match to an end (and all of this was then compounded by a serious issue of FOTM overpowered classes, and many of the best weapons for PvP, only being available in endgame PvE).

PvP was absolutely begging for a team-deathmatch game type, but Blizzard developers are far too stubborn, and PvP remains to this day a thoroughly neglected part of the game, which is a catch 22 problem:  Developers won't give it any attention because of lack of players, but players won't play it because it needs attention.

 

In Warfame we've already seen problems with opposed playstyles, in those who want to rush missions, and those who can't or won't keep up.  They responded by giving mobility to all, when they removed coptering with a limited number of weapons, and replaced it with parkour, and then again as a consequence of adding Ayatan sculptures/stars, which gives everyone a reason to slow down and smash things.

Maybe they can come up with ways to mitigate the level to which diverging playstyles become opposed in conclave too, but that's always been a hard task.

You can create separate casual and hardcore game modes, but then you're running up against the significant problem of dividing your queues, and have to hope that the improvements in gameplay experience, encourage enough players to take up PvP that it makes up for the lower numbers in each queue due to the split.

Similarly you could split players by their skill level to give everyone challenging opponents, but again that runs into the same problem.  The solution to dividing queues is something like a handicap system, as you can pool more players together, but you'll never convince the more skilled players to take a reduction in ther health/damage for the sake of balance, thanks to expectations of MMORPG power creep worming their way into PvP 'progression' (and if you have any sense, you'd ask your self, just how much of those WoW Arena players' progression through the ratings is down to skill, and how much is down to the crutch of their farmed, stronger gear?).

PvP worked so much better when it was simpler, without gear, without progression, and even in the earliest days, without classes.  Quake and Unreal were all about your skill, and they were very rewarding to play, without having the constant lure of better gear dangled in front of you.  You got better by learning maps, including where powerups spawned, and by improving your aim with a range of different weapons, as you couldn't guarantee always having the one you wanted.  Unreal built on that in game weapon/powerup spawn system with relics with a range of bonuses, which included a very clever way to mitigate the age old problem of one player being so good they grabbed all the best weapons and powerups, and went on a huge killing spree:  The vengeance relic caused a skull to rise from the body of the player who'd picked it up on death, which would explode and kill everyone in LoS, so the player with the highest kill rate was the one with the highest chance of triggering it, and getting their 'progression' in collecting weapons and powerups reset.

 

Really, I think PvP needs to go back to its roots and abandon a lot of the progression systems that have found their way in from MMORPGs, because they don't encourage healthy playstyles, and they create a lot of issues with balance and fairness.  PvP should be made rewarding through gameplay.  Not grind.

Personally I'd go back to the in match weapon/powerup spawn system, and get rid of the idea that to use something, you need to craft or unlock it.  Lore-wise all of that equipment could be provided by the organisers of the event, for the duration of the event (and in real life you'd encourage a huge number of PvE players to try PvP, just to try out weapons.  Maybe even enough that you could split the queues by player skill, so they don't upset the serious PvPers, and maybe enough would like it enough to stick around and build the PvP playerbase).

The cornerstone of that system would be how classes work in a match:  Everyone starts off as the same frame, and there are spawn locations throughout the map where you can pick up, and switch to another.  If you die, you go back to the starting frame (yet another, massive incentive for PvE players to try PvP, to try out gear).

That would allow maps to have different sets of frames available in them, and different starting frames, to suit game types or even create variations on how a single map environment is played.

Throw in the upcoming PvP dedicated servers, and players could use that system to create more unique games, through a limited number and diversity of weapons and frames.

If the system ever gets map building tools along the lines of what's used in the dojo, you could always put all the weapon/frame spawns into the starting areas, so players can play whatever they want, and get games that work as they do now )Just reduce the respawn delay to take into account needing to grab a frame and weapons).

You could also solve the old 'get to the chopper' problem that was so prevalent in Battlefield 2, where everyone wanted to use the most popular thing: the chopper, by tweaking the respawn delay at the spawn points for certain frames/weapons, or limiting the maximum number that can be spawned at once.

Edited October 17, 2016 by polarity

[Kontrollo]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

For some people, it's a matter of loathing PvP in general and not the fact that they are "killing Tenno." So Lunaro isn't a catch-all solution to that issue. I disagree that it's fine as long as it's not power-creep.

It's a pity you didn't quote the rest of my post as well, where I've addressed that:

22 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

And they did the right thing with the Riv skins by making them available both for standing and in the market. They could also make them tradeable like other syndicate weapons. So if you really abhor anything related to facing other players, you'd still be able to keep playing PvE, trade for plat, and get your hands on them that way.

As an example, I haven't been interested in playing raids for a while. But if I need another Arcane, I can just spend some plat which I traded with things I got by playing what I like playing. Same difference, really.

I mean,it could be a new take on an existing weapon with mediocre PvE stats and a mechanic which is mostly interesting in the Conclave. As long as people don't feel forced to band together in farm squads to get the next big thing, it's really not an issue.

 

1 hour ago, polarity said:

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Getting matched with tryhards that give you flak for just trying to have a good time while you're grinding standing is a pain

...

The root of the problem was pitting people with different playstyles against each other, which had nothing to do with PvP, as they were usually on the same team, and when you do that, you're going to end up losing players.

This is one of the real issues here, and calling people tryhards who love playing the mode isn't helping, either.

I'm by no means one of the best players out there, but it's not hard to come out on top against players with little experience. And it's not all that interesting or fun, either. Then you get called out for wanting to play the game in a group who is there to just grind the standing.

^ That's how it looks from the other side - or midway through, rather. I'm sure it's even more like that for the really good players.

[Nazrethim]

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

For some people, it's a matter of loathing PvP in general and not the fact that they are "killing Tenno." So Lunaro isn't a catch-all solution to that issue. I disagree that it's fine as long as it's not power-creep.

I don't like Trials, does that mean Trial-only rewards should be obtainable outside of Trials too?

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

It has also been treated entirely as a spin-off game mode to the extent that Scott flat-out disregarded the possibility of applying accumulated experience with PvP balance in a way that would benefit PvE. "It's part of the game" does not justify spending disproportionate amounts of time on it when it caters to a very select group of players and offers nothing but frustration to the rest of them. That's like suggesting that Wyrmius or Flappy Zephyr deserve the same amount of attention as the core PvE game.

Same could be said about Archwing.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I've got no issue with tuning the PvE drop sources of Conclave mods to make more sense, but PvP is still an absolute pain in the neck to play in spite of its balance relative to the rest of the game.

Trials are a sh*tshow worse than Conclave, yet some powerful gamechanging Arcanes are locked behind it, a bunch of easily obtained mods that offer sidegrades or minimal bonuses wouldn't do harm.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Getting matched with tryhards that give you flak for just trying to have a good time while you're grinding standing is a pain.

Same happens in PvE all the time I go public. And the "grind" mentality makes EVERYTHING a pain instead of a play.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Dealing with host-client lag in a competitive setting is a pain.

I deal with that in PvE squads too. 3 out of 4 fissure runs are very laggy, people don't give a sh*T you don't have your reactants or the host leaves for some unfathomable f*cking reason.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Conclave has some nice rewards, and I have no problem with giving it nicer rewards, but it should not be given any reward that would compel PvE players to play conclave simply to get that reward. Conclave should be something people do because they want to do it, not because something they want is locked behind it.

But that's already a thing with the Skins, the syadanna, the armor. Allowing the use of a bunch of mods that almost nobody would equip other than Stances for style won't do harm.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I've made my way up to Typhoon, and I can tell you with certainty that getting there was the least enjoyable experience I have ever gone through with Warframe.

For me it was the opposite, because instead of repeating the same missions over and over for Standing every match was different and truly challenging.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Maybe the opportunity to restrict player traffic with the new dedicated servers will help alleviate some of my problems with Conclave, but as it stands there is no good reason to put rewards with a significant impact on PvE - like entirely new weapons - behind PvP with no non-PvP method of acquisition.

Conclave is a Syndicate, so it's offerings should stick to what the other syndicates do: you work for them or you trade for them.

I already proposed at least two sensible solutions for that:

-Simaris path: Untradable blueprint, weapon built available at the market

-The Six path: Built weapon acquired from Conclave standing but tradable, so anyone who doesn't like it can trade for it.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I have no issues with a stronger PvE OVERLAP with Conclave - allow players to farm Credits/Resources/Mods, etc. through PvP... but it should be an OVERLAP where PvE remains a viable alternative.

Trade, that's the viable alternative, it always was. I have f*cktons of Conclave standing every week, I exchange it for Relics because I don't have anything to do with it, I'm still missing All Secura weapons and the secondary and melee Sanctis, I would happily trade a Conclave weapon for one of them each week until I complete my collection, and allowing anyone willing to trade who doesn't like Conclave to have the weapon without ever stepping into a single match.

[DiabolusUrsus]

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

It's a pity you didn't quote the rest of my post as well, where I've addressed that:

You're right. That's what I get for being in a rush. I apologize.

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

This is one of the real issues here, and calling people tryhards who love playing the mode isn't helping, either.

I'm by no means one of the best players out there, but it's not hard to come out on top against players with little experience. And it's not all that interesting or fun, either. Then you get called out for wanting to play the game in a group who is there to just grind the standing.

^ That's how it looks from the other side - or midway through, rather. I'm sure it's even more like that for the really good players.

I already clarified this for Witchydragon, but as long as you're a sporting player who happens to take the mode more seriously, I've got no qualms with you. It is the unsporting, over-competitive players I classify as tryhards... so if you don't fit that set of criteria please don't take it personally.

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I don't like Trials, does that mean Trial-only rewards should be obtainable outside of Trials too?

No. It means Trials should be reworked to exclude punishment-based cooperation so that they're less toxic, and the mode should be balanced for four players with unique scaling mechanics for up to eight players.

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Same could be said about Archwing.

The difference between Archwing and Conclave being that Archwing could fairly easily be reworked into something that contributes to the PvE experience and is enjoyable for most players whereas Conclave will always be segregated by a fundamental difference in concept.

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Trials are a sh*tshow worse than Conclave, yet some powerful gamechanging Arcanes are locked behind it, a bunch of easily obtained mods that offer sidegrades or minimal bonuses wouldn't do harm.

Trials are also intended to be part of the standard PvE player progression, whereas Conclave is still just a spin-off. I don't see a problem with sticking unique PvE rewards behind a PvE mode. Sure, the mode is crap and needs a lot of help, but that's another story entirely.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Same happens in PvE all the time I go public. And the "grind" mentality makes EVERYTHING a pain instead of a play.

I deal with that in PvE squads too. 3 out of 4 fissure runs are very laggy, people don't give a sh*T you don't have your reactants or the host leaves for some unfathomable f*cking reason.

Which is why I don't play public for the most part. And therein lies the rub: I don't have to play publicly in PvE, whereas if I want the rewards in Conclave I need other people and playing with a small group of friends (i.e. 2-3 other people) won't really cut it.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

But that's already a thing with the Skins, the syadanna, the armor. Allowing the use of a bunch of mods that almost nobody would equip other than Stances for style won't do harm.

Sure, but this thread is about adding additional rewards. Allow me to rephrase: No rewards with an equivalent impact on the PvE side of the game that can only or even primarily be acquired through Conclave. If you want weapons through conclave, fine. But the BPs should be available as PvE drops/on the market.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

For me it was the opposite, because instead of repeating the same missions over and over for Standing every match was different and truly challenging.

Obviously, we're looking for different things out of Warframe. Warframe is still primarily a PvE game, so I don't think infringing on PvE loot is a good idea.

13 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Conclave is a Syndicate, so it's offerings should stick to what the other syndicates do: you work for them or you trade for them.

I already proposed at least two sensible solutions for that:

-Simaris path: Untradable blueprint, weapon built available at the market

-The Six path: Built weapon acquired from Conclave standing but tradable, so anyone who doesn't like it can trade for it.

Trade, that's the viable alternative, it always was. I have f*cktons of Conclave standing every week, I exchange it for Relics because I don't have anything to do with it, I'm still missing All Secura weapons and the secondary and melee Sanctis, I would happily trade a Conclave weapon for one of them each week until I complete my collection, and allowing anyone willing to trade who doesn't like Conclave to have the weapon without ever stepping into a single match.

I disagree. Conclave is a Syndicate, yes, but it's an entirely different beast from Simaris or The Six. With any of the PvE syndicates, you can easily make progress by just playing the PvE game. With Conclave, you can only earn standing by playing Conclave. I don't think you can deny that the mode is niche and polarizing, which is why I am going to continue to be adamant that all of its non-cosmetic, non-conclave-specific rewards should be redundantly available.

I also don't support relying primarily on trade for backup access to Conclave rewards because the trade system is so user-unfriendly. I don't consider fishing on the trade channel or in the bazaar for potentially hours on end a good use of player time.

[Heckzu]

On 10/16/2016 at 2:10 AM, Meta_Nexus said:

Friggin' Dual-Nikanas! (not necessarily Teshin's set, but A SET of dual-Nikana's would be pleasant and quite rewarding)

 

On 10/16/2016 at 8:23 AM, Nazrethim said:

From here we have 3 options:

-Do like Simaris and offer an untradable blueprint with the alternative being the built weapon for platinum on the market

-Do like The Six and offer a tradable built weapon that can't be acquired outside of Conclave.

-Two Twin-Nikanas: Twin-Nikana acquired from TWW or some other PvE quest featuring Teshin, and a Dragon Twin-Nikana bp/weapon (direct upgrade to Twin-Nikana like Dragon Nikana is to Nikana) acquired trough Conclave standing. Bp would be untradable and require the normal Twin-Nikana, built weapon would be tradable.

What if instead of having actual dual Nikanas, we had a Dual Nikana Skin usable on all dual swords? That way there's no Conclave-only weapon so the PVErs have no legitimate reason to complain while we get to show off dual nikanas and make them jealous?

 

On 10/16/2016 at 2:44 AM, Irorone said:

Honestly till PVP finds a nice balance, which is likely never cuz they're trying to balance magic space ninjas going head to head, the only way they could reasonably make it more rewarding is to make it so you only have to play a small handful of matches to get your daily rep.

Ironically, PVP balance is perfect in comparison to PVE balance.

[--RV--Meta]

48 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

What if instead of having actual dual Nikanas, we had a Dual Nikana Skin usable on all dual swords? That way there's no Conclave-only weapon so the PVErs have no legitimate reason to complain while we get to show off dual nikanas and make them jealous?

Word. Agreed. But also having actual Dual Nikanas at some point may prove prudent so that DE can add the greatest twin sword stance in recorded history:

Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu / Two Heavens As One

The style of sword fighting developed and taught by Miyamoto Musashi, who is generally regarded as human history's greatest swordsman. Granted that the style was developed for use with a Katana and a Wakazashi (shorter blade), but if you look closely at Teshin's set of Nikanas, one is, indeed, a bit shorter than the other (as is the same with most of the dual swords to this point), so it works.

I've speculated that they haven't released it yet because they're saving it as (one of) the MR 30 reward(s), but I'm sure that in their studies of sword fighting and Eastern lore they've run across mention of it before now, and plan on getting it into the game at some point...HOPEFULLY!

Edited October 18, 2016 by Meta_Nexus

[Irorone]

1 hour ago, Heckzu said:

 

What if instead of having actual dual Nikanas, we had a Dual Nikana Skin usable on all dual swords? That way there's no Conclave-only weapon so the PVErs have no legitimate reason to complain while we get to show off dual nikanas and make them jealous?

 

Ironically, PVP balance is perfect in comparison to PVE balance.

Comparing "balance" between two entirely different modes of play each with, make no mistake, their own set of flaws is literally comparing apples to oranges and saying that one is perfect in comparison to the other.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Irorone