give us infinite ammo

[(PSN)abbacephas]

[Tricky5hift]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

It's not limited to the Tonkor. I am just using the Tonkor as an example because it is comparable to the Angstrum. I could have just as easily compared the Kohm to the Tigris series, or used any other number of examples.

Like I said, its all a matter of how you see balance.

A weapon can be powerful but needs something to keep it in check.

[Krion112]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

And I just said, that is not true in practice. Ammo inefficiency stopped me from using the Angstrum, like ever, not just for short periods in-mission. Instead, I just use the Tonkor, as in, for the entire mission without ever changing to a secondary/melee weapon.

You know why you use Tonkor? Because it's an offensive weapon, and you just argued not long ago that you like high-speed combat game-play. You know why you don't like the Angstrum? Get this: it's a defensive weapon. You use that for aggression, you're screwed. All Corpus weapons are defensive.

And then, Tigris is a Tenno weapon which means it has multiple roles, but it's mostly an Aggressive Support weapon (support with yourself). And Simulor is also an Aggressive Support weapon.

It seems to me you've found the weapons you actually have fun with. But, for some reason, you think you need to take the extra mile to make every weapon cater to you. I'm sorry, truly I am, but Warframe isn't that kind of game. It's a multi-faceted game, that has something for everyone. It's not dedicated to high-octane aggression, but it does cater to it alongside other play-styles.

 

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

They don't require ammo management though. Things like the soma require ammo management. These things just run out of ammo in like 30 seconds and ammo doesn't come close to dealing with it.

I'm sorry, but if you're running out of ammo with the Angstrum, you are mismanaging that weapon. I don't run out of ammo with the Angstrum, therefore I can only assume you must be doing something wrong, which is supported because, as I said, Angstrum is a defense weapon, and you're an all gung-ho aggressive type player.

Every weapon has management. Each weapon just utilizes it in different strides.

 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

No, you are the one who is arguing that they should, and you don't even realize it.

False; not even slightly am I arguing that's the way it should be. And, in fact, it's already not that, so... yeah.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

Like I said, its all a matter of how you see balance.

A weapon can be powerful but needs something to keep it in check.

Reload times are a balancing point, ammo is not. I already addressed this in the thread.

1 minute ago, Krion112 said:

False; not even slightly am I arguing that's the way it should be. And, in fact, it's already not that, so... yeah.

Like I said, you don't even realize it.

Edited October 23, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Tricky5hift]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Reload times are a balancing point, ammo is not. I already addressed this in the thread.

 

They can both be balancing points otherwise guns wouldn't have varying reload speeds or varying ammo capacities.

Take the Synoid Gammacor for example.

Its a pretty awesome weapon. I like to think of it as a wrist-mounted laser chainsaw.

But it eats ammo like a mofo so you have to use it in moderation.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Tricky5hift

[Dreddeth]

12 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Actually, the burden of proof falls on us both. I say that this is better; it is my burden to prove it. You say that is better; and it is your burden to prove that too.  It only becomes a burden of proof fallacy if I claim to be right by default and say you have to prove me wrong.

Don't be ridiculous. I've made no claim aside from my skepticism of your idea, and you can't ask someone to prove a negative. That would be operating under the assumption that the proposal has credibility, which is something you've utterly failed to establish. As a matter of fact, I've nothing to prove here, and even if I did, better men than you or I have done that already in this very thread. Your job here is to stop trying to squirm away from criticism like a worm beneath the wheel, and defend your position properly. If you can't do that, then you may as well log off for all the good continuing your farce is going to do, considering that this entire thread has already become a skid-mark on your reputation.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Dreddeth

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

So nobody will quote my post?

[Tricky5hift]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

So nobody will quote my post?

Hi.

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

Just now, Tricky5hift said:

Hi.

XD I meant my first post, on the 10th page. It clearly states that you don't need infinite ammo.

[UltimateSpinDash]

3 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Don't be ridiculous. I've made no claim aside from my skepticism of your idea, and you can't ask someone to prove a negative. That would be operating under the assumption that the proposal has credibility, which is something you've utterly failed to establish. As a matter of fact, I've nothing to prove here, and even if I did, better men than you or I have done that already in this very thread. Your job here is to stop trying to squirm away from criticism like a worm beneath the wheel, and defend your position properly. If you can't do that, then you may as well log off for all the good continuing your farce is going to do, considering that this entire thread has already become a skid-mark on your reputation.

Wouldn't be the first time for him. As I said, I've noticed Flame before and all "discussions" he starts go like this thread.

[Krion112]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Like I said, you don't even realize it.

You're the one arguing the game should be extremely focused on high-aggression game-play, you're the one saying it should only be played one way. How ironic, you claim I don't realize something, when you're the one who has an issue with accepting the truth of the matter.

 

Just now, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

So nobody will quote my post?

Hi.

12 minutes ago, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

Ammo mutation mods? Boom. Infinite ammo. Scavenger auras? Even more ammo. Ammo restores? Even more ammo. You don't need infinite ammo.

Yes, you are correct, all of these things can be made to effectively attain infinite ammo, but everyone who already understands this premise are not the ones who need to hear it. 

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

Just now, Krion112 said:

You're the one arguing the game should be extremely focused on high-aggression game-play, you're the one saying it should only be played one way. How ironic, you claim I don't realize something, when you're the one who has an issue with accepting the truth of the matter.

 

Hi.

Yes, you are correct, all of these things can be made to effectively attain infinite ammo, but everyone who already understands this premise are not the ones who need to hear it. 

I never said they did.

[Krion112]

Just now, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

I never said they did.

Well, that's just why noone was quoting you; we get it, the OP does not.

But I agree with your point, so good on 'ya.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

Ammo mutation mods? Boom. Infinite ammo. Scavenger auras? Even more ammo. Ammo restores? Even more ammo. You don't need infinite ammo.

100% correct 

Edited October 23, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Drasiel]

Man there is a lot of anger in this thread. You know what it reminds me of? The stamina Bar. 

The stamina Bar was both crippling and only a minor annoyance. See you could get around the entire stamina system using only 1mod, sliding, or coptering. If you weren't aware of those things then you were lost and forsaken, never to keep up with your teammates let alone see them ever again. This was a prominent issue with saryn, rhino, and frost. 

This discussion of ammo as an annoyance  and restriction is strikingly similar to threads about stamina. You've got a bunch of weapons that simply do not complete their function well in this system while other weapons the ammo may as well not be there at all they are so efficient. The workarounds for ammo are also a lot more continuously expensive than stamina's ever were. Right now we've got a system that lots of other games use ergo it must be good right?  Well stamina wasn't good for Warframe and everyone I have encountered is happy it's gone. Maybe ammo efficiency does need to be looked at hard to see what it actually benefits in Warframe. Whether that means ammo pool changes, ammo pickup changes, or a complete overhaul I have no idea, but it's good to be discussing. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

5 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

They can both be balancing points otherwise guns wouldn't have varying reload speeds or varying ammo capacities.

Nope. Mag sizes and reload speeds are balancing factors. Ammo efficiency is not. If you make a weapon slightly less efficient, people will not even notice. Slightly more, and people will just use a band-aid and play exactly the same. If you pull a Kohm-prex on it then people will just trash it entirely.

7 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

Take the Synoid Gammacor for example.

Everyone that knew what they were doing swapped to the Atomos.

 

 

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

1 minute ago, Krion112 said:

Well, that's just why noone was quoting you; we get it, the OP does not.

But I agree with your point, so good on 'ya.

Yay

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, Drasiel said:

Man there is a lot of anger in this thread. You know what it reminds me of? The stamina Bar. 

The stamina Bar was both crippling and only a minor annoyance. See you could get around the entire stamina system using only 1mod, sliding, or coptering. If you weren't aware of those things then you were lost and forsaken, never to keep up with your teammates let alone see them ever again. This was a prominent issue with saryn, rhino, and frost. 

This discussion of ammo as an annoyance  and restriction is strikingly similar to threads about stamina. You've got a bunch of weapons that simply do not complete their function well in this system while other weapons the ammo may as well not be there at all they are so efficient. The workarounds for ammo are also a lot more continuously expensive than stamina's ever were. Right now we've got a system that lots of other games use ergo it must be good right?  Well stamina wasn't good for Warframe and everyone I have encountered is happy it's gone. Maybe ammo efficiency does need to be looked at hard to see what it actually benefits in Warframe. Whether that means ammo pool changes, ammo pickup changes, or a complete overhaul I have no idea, but it's good to be discussing. 

Well said.

[Tricky5hift]

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Nope. Mag sizes and reload speeds are balancing factors. Ammo efficiency is not. If you make a weapon slightly less efficient, people will not even notice. Slightly more, and people will just use a band-aid and play exactly the same. If you pull a Kohm-prex on it then people will just trash it entirely.

Everyone that knew what they were doing swapped to the Atomos.

Lol so you're basically saying "Screw you, go with meta."?

Yeah.

Ok.

I... think I'll take a break from this thread.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Atomos

um no, syn gamacore is still better than atomos because of the proc and 104% status even with its current nerf.. Infinite gamacore would be instantly broken and would contradict its nerf. 

[Krion112]

 

3 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

-snip-

The balance reasons for Stamina and Ammo are two separate things. Stamina was tied to the player, ammo is tied to the weapon. You only had 1 stamina bar, but a player packs around 2 pools of ammo, so we do have something to switch off to if one pool is running low. Trying to manage stamina was self-punishing, but managing a weapon properly will never yield problems with ammo.

Overall, Stamina was tacked on, but Ammo is more integral to balance.

Yes, there is room for improvement in the way Warframe handles ammo, but infinite ammo isn't the solution. The thread here is also not labelled or progressing in a way that the OP intended for us to talk solutions, they seem only intent upon talking about their solution. We'd need a different thread to talk about how we would fix the ammo situation.

[Flirk2]

Wait a moment. Are there really people who argue that infinite ammo capacity with 6+ second reload times is better then what we have?

With the scaling as it is, automatics drop off in efficiency at about level 25. After that, even modded to the gills and polarized, they need ammo restores once in a while or a mutation mod. Things like Amprex could be used as a status proc applicator indefinitely though. You just have to rely on powers, other weapons and teammates to do the actual killing then. And isn't it the point?

I started to use Sobek a lot after Acid Shells became a thing and getting the Lock and Load mod. Before the that combination, 4 second reload time was a killer for that weapon, as far as my play style goes.

To have every weapon with that kind of reload times? No, thank you.

And thing is, I don't think you'll be that thrilled with those reload times either. Just try out a Gorgon with the Tainted Mag mod. Or a Sobek with the Burdened Magazine. See how you will enjoy longer reload times.

[Tricky5hift]

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

And thing is, I don't think you'll be that thrilled with those reload times either. Just try out a Gorgon with the Tainted Mag mod. Or a Sobek with the Burdened Magazine. See how you will enjoy longer reload times.

Yeah I love using Prisma Gorgon with Toxic Chroma.

Having your Prisma Gorgon reload as quick as a Lato is unbelievably satisfying.

Going off of that, people would be forced to mod for increased reload speed in order to counter the painfully long reload times. That is just the same exact issue people have with ammo-mutation mods.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

um no, syn gamacore is still better than atomos because of the proc and 104% status even with its current nerf.. Infinite gamacore would be instantly broken and would contradict its nerf. 

IIRC, beam weapons only proc status once every second. The Atomos, can have very high status chance too, plus it can nuke an entire room instantly, while also being highly ammo efficient. It also used to ignore Nully bubbles on link.

3 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

To have every weapon with that kind of reload times? No, thank you.

No one is asking for every weapon to have reload times like that. Just things like the simulor, amprex, and the tonkor. Things that vaporize entire rooms instantly.

[UltimateSpinDash]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Nope. Mag sizes and reload speeds are balancing factors. Ammo efficiency is not. If you make a weapon slightly less efficient, people will not even notice. Slightly more, and people will just use a band-aid and play exactly the same. If you pull a Kohm-prex on it then people will just trash it entirely.

 

Everyone that knew what they were doing swapped to the Atomos.

See, you make a claim here without real arguments and present it as gospel. "No, you're wrong and I'm right."

Ammo efficiency is a balancing factor, albeit not visible as a stat. Yes, if a weapon isn't efficient it's most likely going to be ignored in the meta - but you have to keep in mind that we have tons of weapons who have great ammo efficiency and no other glaring weakness.

Also, a mod countering a weapon's weakness is not a band-aid. Ammo Mutations are not a band aid (though one could argue that the primed versions are, since if the regular ones didn't do their job well enough they should be buffed).

Compare that to Body Count, which is required to make proper use of the Combo Counter, which multiplies damage by default and enables red crit melees in combination with Blood Rush. Or some augments that are required to make the original ability even worth using.

The funny thing about the Gammacor is that it's damage output wasn't touched. DE basically said "you can keep your death laser, just don't expect it's batteries to last forever". I also love the Amprex and how tight builds for it are.

Also, please stop using Pizza's as an argument. We can carry hundreds of those which trivializes matters to a point where I almost consider them cheating. Having, say, three of those per mission would be fine (on shorter missions one would be enough).

 

 

Honestly though, I can't believe this thread has been going for eleven pages.