DeMonkey Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Azrael said: When is my life going to be adjusted? A life? That's the next Warframe coming out right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insizer Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 minute ago, DeMonkey said: A life? That's the next Warframe coming out right? No, I believe he said "my life". "a life" is the warframe that comes after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 Just now, Insizer said: Because literally everything does not have a duration, nor would they even conceptually? What other answer can I give? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Here's my post you quoted, with key word in bold: Perhaps, I should have said "any duration greater than instantaneous" or something rather than "any duration", my bad. I figured that you would understand that I was trying to say abilities whose effects are primarily driven by duration (and no, status procs do not count), abilities that are not like the "fire once per cast" ones like Shock, Freeze, Fireball, Ballistic Battery, Teleport, Psychic Bolts, Sonic Boom, Paralysis, etc. I figured you'd understand this by the example I posted with my comment. I find it funny that you are nit-picking the language of my comment, and, presumably, not understanding a very simple assumption I made. Yet you started your entire thread assuming everyone knew exactly what you meant, down to specifics, and then criticized people who asked you for any information about your stance. Nothing is truly instantaneous. If it exists; it has a durration. Like I said it makes more sense for them to be affected by duration than toggle skills. Duration should effect anything that is fired then left on it's own, even if the durration is measured in picoseconds. It does not make sense for toggle skills. To use an analogy, we will use lifting a shoe from the ground as an example: Duration skills are equivalent to throwing the shoe in the air. You can "mod duration" by adjusting the force with which you throw the shoe or the angle at which it is thrown. These will both affect the time (i.e. duration) for which the shoe remains in the air. This makes no logical sense for a toggle skill. A toggle skill is the equivalent on lifting the shoe from the ground by it's lace then continuing to hold it by the lace. It doesn't matter how much force with or the angle at which you lift the shoe by the lace, because as long as you continue to apply energy to it (i.e. holding the lace), the shoe will remain off of the ground. Ergo, it makes no logical sense for duration to affect toggle skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkyPygmy Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) I wish this threads duration was severally nerfed. 4 minutes ago, Azrael said: When is my life going to be adjusted? You and me both friend. You and me both... Edited October 23, 2016 by StinkyPygmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackviator Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Azrael said: When is my life going to be adjusted? *when is my life going to be adjusted FTFY. No capitalization or punctuation, remember? Edited October 23, 2016 by Jackviator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Insizer said: No, I believe he said "my life". "a life" is the warframe that comes after that. Drat. Hype dead. 9 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Nothing is truly instantaneous. If it exists; it has a durration. Like I said it makes more sense for them to be affected by duration than toggle skills. Duration should effect anything that is fired then left on it's own, even if the durration is measured in picoseconds. It does not make sense for toggle skills. To use an analogy, we will use lifting a shoe from the ground as an example: Duration skills are equivalent to throwing the shoe in the air. You can "mod duration" by adjusting the force with which you throw the shoe or the angle at which it is thrown. These will both affect the time (i.e. duration) for which the shoe remains in the air. This makes no logical sense for a toggle skill. A toggle skill is the equivalent on lifting the shoe from the ground by it's lace then continuing to hold it by the lace. It doesn't matter how much force with or the angle at which you lift the shoe by the lace, because as long as you continue to apply energy to it (i.e. holding the lace), the shoe will remain off of the ground. Ergo, it makes no logical sense for duration to affect toggle skills. Anyone can make an analogy to fit their argument. This however doesn't require an analogy, at all. In order to drain 150 energy Peacemaker needs to be active for 10 seconds. If you add a +30% duration mod on it then needs to be active for 13 seconds to drain that amount of energy. That length of time is known as a duration. The duration that the ability was active for has increased by 30%. But I'll bite, I'll fit this into your analogy. Say you hold the shoe until your arm falls off, and that took 100 hours. That's the duration you were able to hold the shoe up. You then go to the doctor, who cybernetically fits stronger muscles that magically give you +30% duration to whatever you want to do. You can then hold up a shoe for 130 hours before your arm falls off. Simple. Edited October 23, 2016 by DeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)abbacephas Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psykosis Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 My question is seriously, why does it seem that "almost" every console player thinks all sorts of aspects need adjusting for this game. either mods, how the combat is, so on and so forth.. u do realize this is the best if not one the best f2p out there, and has been running strong for 3 years. why do u think they make adjustments on the fly on PC first? to iron out bugs and adjustments that they get from player feedback before the update goes to console Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 Just now, DeMonkey said: But I'll bite, I'll fit this into your analogy. Say you hold the shoe until your arm falls off, and that took 100 hours. That's the duration you were able to hold the shoe up. You then go to the doctor, who cybernetically fits stronger muscles that magically give you +30% duration to whatever you want to do. You can then hold up a shoe for 130 hours before your arm falls off. Simple. Nope. Because the amount of energy you are expending hasn't changed. Even with a cybernetic arm, the force applied to counter gravity on the shoe remains constant. Your cybernetic arm example would simply be the equivalent of equipping Primed Flow. You didn't increase the duration (force and angle); you increased the energy pool (i.e. the amount of continuous energy supply the arm can provide before being depleted ((i.e. falling off))). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demon.King Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Stop feeding the troll, this has gone on long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Kop_Fan09 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I got an idea... why don't everyone just ignore the post instead of reacting to it? Like a bad smell, it will go away eventually. Op being vague for a reason, to get a reaction which they've managed to do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Nope. Because the amount of energy you are expending hasn't changed. Even with a cybernetic arm, the force applied to counter gravity on the shoe remains constant. Your cybernetic arm example would simply be the equivalent of equipping Primed Flow. You didn't increase the duration (force and angle); you increased the energy pool (i.e. the amount of continuous energy supply the arm can provide before being depleted ((i.e. falling off))). I... What? How? That's as bonkers as saying that the Earth is flat and the Moon is made of cheese. I gave you facts. Pure and simple. I spelt out for you exactly how it works, and even fit it into your stupid analogy. And you still haven't provided a single reason why you think it should be changed. You have no argument, you have no valid points. It's 8 in the morning, I'm going to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said: I... What? How? That's as bonkers as saying that the Earth is flat and the Moon is made of cheese. I gave you facts. Pure and simple. I spelt out for you exactly how it works, and even fit it into your stupid analogy. And you still haven't provided a single reason why you think it should be changed. You have no argument, you have no valid points. It's 8 in the morning, I'm going to bed. I just explained to you why your analogy was wrong. Rather than accept it, you threw a tantrum and ran away. That is the only fact here. Edited October 23, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insizer Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Nothing is truly instantaneous. If it exists; it has a durration. Like I said it makes more sense for them to be affected by duration than toggle skills. Duration should effect anything that is fired then left on it's own, even if the durration is measured in picoseconds. It does not make sense for toggle skills. To use an analogy, we will use lifting a shoe from the ground as an example: Duration skills are equivalent to throwing the shoe in the air. You can "mod duration" by adjusting the force with which you throw the shoe or the angle at which it is thrown. These will both affect the time (i.e. duration) for which the shoe remains in the air. This makes no logical sense for a toggle skill. A toggle skill is the equivalent on lifting the shoe from the ground by it's lace then continuing to hold it by the lace. It doesn't matter how much force with or the angle at which you lift the shoe by the lace, because as long as you continue to apply energy to it (i.e. holding the lace), the shoe will remain off of the ground. Ergo, it makes no logical sense for duration to affect toggle skills. But you didn't say anything. I just reread through your comments on this thread. You never said that anything close to "it makes more sense for them to be affected by duration than toggle skills. Duration should effect anything that is fired then left on it's own, even if the duration is measured in picoseconds. It does not make sense for toggle skills." Technically, yes, there is nothing instantaneous, but warframe is not a physics engine (even if it was, it would still make assumptions, like all physic engines do), and includes what is effectively magic. Even if we take your picosecond extreme into account, then we are talking about modifying a picosecond's duration by a percentage less than 10^10 (which might make the duration, 10^-12 seconds, actually important). I'm struggling to figure out a definition to describe what is a very simple concept of "abilities that are not 'one fire per usage'". The reason why duration affects toggles is because toggles are used for abilties which act over a duration... Look, I get where you are trying to get at, that you think there is a definite divide between efficiency driven and duration driven, but I just don't agree with it when it comes to toggles. Lets take your shoe example. You could also keep the shoe suspended by applying small impacts again and again and again, each of these strikes transfers momentum. This transfer happens over a period of time, creating a force, a force which counters the pull of gravity. Force equals change in momentum over changes in time (F=dp/dt). But here we are arguing about shoes, using them as evidence in this debate, when in fact they are only analogies and not evidence. Also, don't do a physics analogy with someone with a degree in physics. Edited October 23, 2016 by Insizer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Insizer said: Lets take your shoe example. You could also keep the shoe suspended by applying small impacts again and again and again, each of these strikes transfers momentum and happen over a period of time, creating a force, a force which counters the pull of gravity. Force equals change in momentum over changes in time (F=dp/dt). But here we are arguing about shoes, using them as evidence in this debate, when in fact they are only analogies and not evidence. Nope, that still doesn't apply. The repeated impacts example would be closer to topping off Nekros's Shadows or Frost's Bubble. You can increase the angle and force applied to the initial shoe toss as well as the following impacts, but the following impacts are not a constant and steady drain like the toggle/holding the string. Toggles are a steady continuous force. Whereas the impact to push something back to it's apex is how topping off Shadows works and is applied after additional calculations and adjustments. Just like how an impact won't make the shoe go directly up, you will need to adjust when you top off your shadows based on various elements as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 35 minutes ago, Jackviator said: *when is my life going to be adjusted FTFY. No capitalization or punctuation, remember? my bad ill try to do better next time 43 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: It doesn't matter how much force with or the angle at which you lift the shoe by the lace, because as long as you continue to apply energy to it (i.e. holding the lace), the shoe will remain off of the ground. Ergo, it makes no logical sense for duration to affect toggle skills. I'm so glad we're arguing about this. Thank you so much for this entertainment. I just love these sorts of random analogies. You want to know why duration effects toggled abilities? It effects the duration of time between energy cost ticks, i.e. they effect the tick rate. Oh, and there's one other reason: because DE wanted to balance things and this was a good way to do it. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Azrael said: because DE wanted to balance things and this was a good way to do it. They wanted to increase grind for so you would be more likely to pay real money for items instead, and they thought this would be a good way to do it. This is why they made the toggle change, why they nerfed greedy pull, why they nerfed desecrate, why the are systematically nerfing every nuker, etc. Just because I understand this doesn't mean I have to like it or pretend that it makes logical sense in regards to in-game lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 27 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: They wanted to increase grind for so you would be more likely to pay real money for items instead, and they thought this would be a good way to do it. What on earth does ability energy drain have to do with the grind? What grind did they increase with the change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, Azrael said: What on earth does ability energy drain have to do with the grind? What grind did they increase with the change? IIRC the change happened around the same time Mesa + GP Mag was popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurrealEdge Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: IIRC the change happened around the same time Mesa + GP Mag was popular. You mean when they reverted those changes to make the game meant to be played as it was meant to? Not mindlessly standing around battling the AFK timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashrah Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 just replace negative duration with natural talent and its fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 Just now, SurrealEdge said: You mean when they reverted those changes to make the game meant to be played as it was meant to? Not mindlessly standing around battling the AFK timer. Yes. It was a temporary band-aid. Band-aid are meant to be removed after the wound is healed. They already changed way Peacemaker works. The change isn't really making frames like Ivara anyless OP anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurrealEdge Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 14 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Yes. It was a temporary band-aid. Band-aid are meant to be removed after the wound is healed. They already changed way Peacemaker works. The change isn't really making frames like Ivara anyless OP anyway. Still viable throughout with or without those changes in light of their recent changes. It only encouraged players to actually contribute by playing the game as it was meant to be played. Doesn't make Mesa any less of a damage dealing frame as she can still deal large amounts of damage in a short time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, SurrealEdge said: Still viable throughout with or without those changes in light of their recent changes. It only encouraged players to actually contribute by playing the game as it was meant to be played. Doesn't make Mesa any less of a damage dealing frame as she can still deal large amounts of damage in a short time. Mag is trash-tier now. Mesa is still decent, but no longer being an aim-bot means that the issue that prompted the band-aid has been resolved. It's okay to remove it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurrealEdge Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Mag is trash-tier now. Mesa is still decent, but no longer being an aim-bot means that the issue that prompted the band-aid has been resolved. It's okay to remove it now. Mag is nowhere as bad as you claim she is. In fact, she is in a much stronger state with the changes to how her abilities work and how they now synergize with her other abilities to deal even larger amounts of damage whether it's a single target or over a small area with Crush. Why would you need aimbot? Mesa is in a good place now that you can focus her firepower in a small area to take out bullet sponges with greater ease than having her erratically fire off in every direction where the fire power is not as essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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