Let's talk about Melee 2.0

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

melees:

for me the stances are fun to use, some are not as ....fluid as others and those need to be cleaned up to be equivalent. then there are some like polearms which need the stances to have more combos. or machetes which need new stances  in general.

 

my major feeling is that if they all have multiple stances each one needs a variation to make them relevant 

example

• blind justice very DPS oriented with cc and slash dash strike
• tranquil cleave is very forward attacking, focusing on a single enemy or a few in front grouped together, has a finisher combo to cover its dps offset
• then there is decisive judgment (my fav) , utilities 360 hit combos  and a amped up two hand heavy attack. (then there is its not so commonly known finisher combo) ^{not as easy as tranquil but if you know how its ok}

my point is with each of these nikana stances we cover a range of play and tactic styles that give players a variety 

but it seems like melees are restricted as we have to have certain mods to squeeze the damage out

body count .... pressure point ..

they take up a mod slot .... granted id rather see base damage mods removed to further open just that 1 slot, which would help most melee have a dieal build type, and or utilise mods combos in new ways 

weapon evolution: status 

as of late some new status melees join the party, and bring with them their own unique abilities/traits , and i feel this helps them out , but id like to see some of the older status weapons balanced out with their own mechanics, special trait to make them viable 

but i do enjoy how this direction for status weapons is going myself 

 

[o.0-]

Do you believe 2.0 is in a good spot right now?  If not, why?

• It's in a decent place now. Smooth out animation transitions and seeing how the upcoming blocking system will be interesting.

What's your opinion on Body Count + Blood Rush + Berserker as a build?  Is it how you imagine Warframe's melee should be?

• After using these mods for a while, I dislike how they become mandatory. At least Body Count should have its Endo refunded to players that have then and raise the base counter retention duration.

What about Channeling?  Should Channeling itself receive some major update (not necessarily mean full on overhaul) or just tweaks? 

• Weapons need to play on this more. I'd like to see a change where channeling cost can be based more on damage per swing, so weapons like Fang Prime can make multiple channeled swings, compared to a swing from a large heavy hitter like the Fragor Prime and so the Channeling mods need tweaks too, since there are number of must have melee mods that make the Channeling mods less effective in basically any build.

What do you think of Counterattack?  Do you think it has a place in 2.0? 

• I'd like to see it stay. It can see improvements with more animations for any enemy, how animations transition, how we can trigger them. There can be times when you do not want to trigger them, then other times when you do. Dunno if being able to more overtly tie them to the melee blocking key can help here or not.

What do you think of Stances?  Do you enjoy the combos they offer?

• Most seem to be in a good place, there are some fun ones to watch and listen too. Just need a little more reason to use them more often since some of simpler actions transition faster and do not slow down the pacing.

What do you think of the current state of blocking?  Do you think the damage resist they give are enough for melee playstyle?  Or would you prefer the old drain stamina but blocks 100% system?

• Looking forward to trying out what coming soon to a Melee 2.0 Blocking near you. My one pet peeve was learning that the amount was capped at 85% and shared between Sword & Shield, Heavy Blade, Hammer, Nikana, Polearm, Scythe and Machete. So it has never made sense to me why these are all at 85% and why Gunblades sit at 60%. I'd think that a scale that sorts weapons from 5% to 85% would make more sense, where daggers are around 5% to 10%, with anything with a Shield would be at 85%. Anything else would fall in between those two extremes.

What do you think of melee mods we have right now?  Do you think there are enough build variety for you to play?  Too few?  Good enough?  They aren't interesting regardless?

• I guess they are okay. Although we currently lean towards the too many tend to be necessary side of things. Something I've thought about is I'd like IPS to be more central and separate Ballistic IPS from Melee IPS, with changes to how Elemental sources work. I go into more detail here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/705298-ideas-for-damage-30-focus-on-improving-ips-other-topics/

[Casval_Rouge]

Again thanks for the replies.  I'm seeing the general consensus seem to be pretty much what I have expected.  The obvious being Counterattack being not very well received, Crit focus is too overwhelmingly good right now, Channeling needs work, and that Body Count should probably be base line.  

But gameplay-wise I'm seeing more of a split in wanting command moves versus improved combo strings.  And I think this really is the core issue, and I want to expand this discuss further into it.

So, here comes more questions again  

First, let's split the different concepts into 3 options.  For the record the keybindings below are just there to illustrate the point, they are examples, not what they really should be.  Rebinding keys is a thing in this game.  Also these are all for when a melee weapon is equipped.  So anything that requires the alt fire button would not be usable in quick melee.  Otherwise DE would be need to introduce another key just for it.

A.  Command move style.

• Remove combos except one, that would be the base spam combo, aka Filler.
• The Filler would be a 6+ string to reduce the repetition.
• Different moves are now executed by input combinations, instead of input strings.  ie. Direction key + Attack, Hold Alt fire + direction, etc.
• Imagine charge attack but each stance will offer multiple variants.  Lunge attack, slam attack, and sweep attack, etc.  Tranquil Cleave gets a unique Iaito slash finisher for example.  Astral Twlight might have an orbiting glaive attack.
• Each Stance will have at least 4 moves.  Up charge, down charge, left/right charge, and neutral charge.  Even more if Alt Fire key is used as well.
• Filler will only be one fixed E combo and has no branches, but can cancel into the new charge attacks at any time.
• Charge attacks are not timing based.  Meaning you can hold them indefinitely.  Its damage scales over time up to a logical cap (3 seconds?).
• Charge attacks can also be used without charge.  So if you just want to lunge forward, you can just press and release after a very short minimum duration that serves as a buffer and not hold it down for more damage.
• This also means you can weave these into your filler combo and thus make up your own combo as you go.
• Because this doesn't use the alt fire key.  Charge attacks can be charged while shooting or doing anything else.  So your melee weapon will glow as you held down E while bullet jumping, shooting, reload, anything.  You can then unleash it as long as your character is able to, ie. not knockdown, or channeling a power.

B. Improved Combos.

• Combos are now executed through combinations of different keys.  ie.  E > E > Mouse 3 > Mouse 3 is one combo.  E > Mouse 3 > E > E would be another.
• No combos would require pauses, holding, or combining 2 keys.  They are all done between 2 buttons, or more if the need arises.
• Each combos are made to serve an even more obvious purpose, instead of hidden status multipliers and effects like knockdown.  ie, Combo A is AOE sweeps, Combo B is movement, etc.  Think Dynasty Warriors combo templates.  3 hits for aoe, 4 for launchers, etc.
• Charge attacks would be as is.   

C. Both worlds.

• Option A combines with Option B.
• So we'll have 2 buttons in melee mode.  One (E key) will be the attack button, Alt attack (Mouse 3) will be the charge moves. 
• You now execute charge moves purely with Alt Attack + directional.  These moves can be cancel into during any of your combos.
• So if you are using the E > E > M3> M3 combo, if you hold during the first M3, you'll get a charge attack instead.  Then if you follow up with another M3, you'll get another charge attack.  Or if you prefer the speed, you can just press and not hold as usual. 
• You cannot weave in and create your own combos like in Option A as combos are now fixed.  This is just the reality of fix combos, can't really be fixed as far as I know.
• Although in theory if you can find a way to reset the input buffers, you might be able to.  But that has a lot to do with underling code, so can't really say more.

So, what do you think of these options?  Which one do you prefer?

Do you think C is too complicated in a game like Warframe where guns and powers are also a big part of the combat?

Do you think A is too charge focus and not spammy enough for you?

Do you think B is too simplistic?  Or is just simple enough for the chaotic gameplay that is Warframe?

Feel free to pick different points between each options to find what works best for you.  It would be interesting to see what would be the most popular option.

[Nikbis]

15 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

What's your opinion on Body Count + Blood Rush + Berserker as a build?  Is it how you imagine Warframe's melee should be?

Sure I'm playing with them, they improved my damage significantly. I'd want to say, like Airdrift, that Body Count " should just be an innate part of the game" however I did fine without it before. Anyway, if the combo timer was longer without Body Count, I'm sure it would help many players to find the usefulness of melee, there would be more melee players !

15 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

What about Channeling?  Should Channeling itself receive some major update (not necessarily mean full on overhaul) or just tweaks? 

What do you think of Counterattack?  Do you think it has a place in 2.0?

What do you think of the new charge attack?  Do you think they have a significant enough purpose to serve?

Channeling has only one purpose : Life Strike. Otherwise, it's a waste of energy.
Counterattack... There is so little enemies using melee that you don't even remember it exists in a middle of a fight. Smashing E remains more efficient.
I don't really use the charge attacks as it feels a waste of time as opposed to the combos. They are too close to what basic swings are. Some extra effect would be great

15 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

What do you think of Stances?  Do you enjoy the combos they offer?

When you go mainly melee in a mission, do you mix up your combos?  If so, are they tactical choices or just on a whim?

I use the Jat Kittag with the Crushing Ruin stance. Both the RMB and Hold combos have their own purpose. I don't use the Down one as it makes me move backward (and is kinda useless compared to the effects the 2 others offers).
Oh, and the "wall combo" is a total waste of time ! It doesn't benefit from your attack speed.

15 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

What do you think of the current state of blocking?  Do you think the damage resist they give are enough for melee playstyle?  Or would you prefer the old drain stamina but blocks 100% system?

Actually, I find it good as it is !
If I'm not hitting something or if I want to maneuver in the air, I hold RMB down constantly. I very often find myself still running while without it I would be on the ground.
The stamina was a real pain to me as my reflex was to block when I couldn't do a combo or run 'cuz of no more stamina. And of course, blocking without stamina was useless :D

Edited October 25, 2016 by Nikbis

[Extroah]

I think that Combos should be handeled like Skills in traditional mmorpgs, with a skilltree where you can chose the combos you'd like to have and dont have, or a 2nd tab for special combo mods. That way people like me arent forced to use a different Stance just because that one makes you dash/leap 10m forward when you dont want it.

And i think we need a lot more mods. Right now it is either full crit build, berserker build or elemental build. We need something like, again, traditional mmorpgs. Where, upon upgrading your weapon (formaing) your weapon gets a +1 to its level and slightly increases its stats. Most games handle it up to +10, some to +20 and some just make them have a white glow to it or change the items color/rarity or something, but i think +10 should be fine. That way we could make the stats increase up to 10 formas and then stay like that, or maybe just get that typical "white glow" to it to make people with 100 forma feel special. Or maybe instead of forma we would have to sacrifice other weapons in order to gain exp/levels on a weapon.

Anyways, there are lots of things that could be improved, but im liking it so far.

[LuckyCharm]

Personally I love melee both 1.0 and 2.0. 

What 2.0 got right was stances. But sadly since it's release they haven't added near enough along with the weapons they added. Dual swords for example haven't had a single new stance since melee 2.0 came about and they're the weapon category with the most weapons in it. That always has me thinking "WTF?!" when I think of it, since there are so many references for dual sword fighting styles out there. 

What they got wrong with Melee 2.0 though is charge attacks. They all suck, they're all slow, and when they changed from melee 1.0 - 2.0 they removed all the charge attack mods that there used to be, rending strike etc, leaving you with really no reason to use them on anything but throwing weapons, the zenistar and that new scythe that just came out. 

[GreyEnneract]

21 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

Do you believe 2.0 fixed the problems 1.0 had?

Most of them.

Do you believe 2.0 is in a good spot right now?  If not, why?

Definitely not. Channeling is too costly to use for the amount of what it gives in return. Even if it was in a good spot, say with having channeling drain energy over time instead, there would still be no mod slot space to use a channeling mod. On top of that even if there were an Exilus type of slot, most people would just stick Life Strike into it. There are also still no aerial combos, and hit detection for objects in the air or directly on the ground is horrid. The base combo counter timer should have just been higher in the first place instead of adding on the bandaid Body Count. Then the obvious lack of stances and combos within them.

What's your opinion on Body Count + Blood Rush + Berserker as a build?  Is it how you imagine Warframe's melee should be?

I already mentioned Body Count is a bandaid mod, however Blood Rush and Berserker are fine. This question more comes down to Status chance overall being mediocre in comparison. With no over 100% status procs, base status chance mods being very weak, and for melee specifically there's no Berserker equivalent for status chance.

What about Channeling?  Should Channeling itself receive some major update (not necessarily mean full on overhaul) or just tweaks? 

As mentioned above, channeling would need a "channel mod slot" similar to an exilus slot, and on top of that turn into a toggle that drains over time instead of per hit. Currently it is too costly to focus on channeling when its return is so little. Maybe have life strike be innate to channeling but much weaker, while also balancing (mostly buffing) the other channel mods. So people won't just use Life Strike if the earlier changes are made.

What do you think of Counterattack?  Do you think it has a place in 2.0? 

Depends on how it's implemented. Blocking or Channel blocking right when an attack hits could have you leap to a target and use a finisher or something similar.

What do you think of Stances?  Do you enjoy the combos they offer?

They're very hit or miss. In my opinion each one should have at least three combos separate from the base combo. With each one having a gap closer, AOE, and single target combo. On top of that, each weapon type should have at least three stances.

When you go mainly melee in a mission, do you mix up your combos?  If so, are they tactical choices or just on a whim?

Almost all my missions are melee only. With a Scythe usually. I use the most useful and easy combo until I need a single target combo for tankier enemies (if the stance has such a combo).

What do you think of the new charge attack?  Do you think they have a significant enough purpose to serve?

No. Each weapon type should have its own unique type of charge attack in a more drastic way. Similar to how different the Telos Boltace's slide attack is. It would also be nice to see some weapons have higher charge attack base damage instead of the usual status/crit chance increases we get. Of course the increased charge attack base damage would have to be quite high to be noticeable.

What do you think of the current state of blocking?  Do you think the damage resist they give are enough for melee playstyle?  Or would you prefer the old drain stamina but blocks 100% system?

Even if the new blocking was extremely worse than before, it would still be better than ever having a stamina system back. Blocking instead could just balance out the amount of DR they give, then convert those percents into chances to fully block damage. With maybe things such as dual weapons having a higher base block chance than others. With of course shields being the highest, or even just 100%. Movement speed could possibly increase the new block chance by a small amount for logic's sake.

What do you think of melee mods we have right now?  Do you think there are enough build variety for you to play?  Too few?  Good enough?  They aren't interesting regardless?

Status needs more love for sure mod wise, but that goes for all weapons. Even if DE added more beneficial mods that I can't think of, we'll always be at the whim of the mandatory mods and how much mod space they leave open.

 

 

 

[Nazrethim]

13 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

So, what do you think of these options?  Which one do you prefer?

It's difficult to say, all seem very reasonable. Though I would pick E&R instead of E&M3 because with default config E it's the melee key and face pace two-key combo would require an accessible key, R is perfect because it isn't used and it's right next to E. Also because that way M3 can be used for other purposes, like unlocking a second stance slot that is inactive and you can swap stances mid-mission by using the M3 (example: Equip a Dark Split Sword with Tempo Royale in stance slot 1 and Swirling Tiger on stance slot 2 and you can go from Heavy Blade to Dual Blade and viceversa mid mission by using M3, or swap stance from Tranquil Cleave-Blind Justice with a Nikana)

13 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

Do you think C is too complicated in a game like Warframe where guns and powers are also a big part of the combat?

Well, that depends on each  players background. There are many melee systems to pick inspiration from.

13 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

Do you think A is too charge focus and not spammy enough for you?

Problem with focusing on charge attacks is that they are by nature slower and this is a fast pace combat enviroment. Even stealth-play is faster in execution.

13 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

Do you think B is too simplistic?  Or is just simple enough for the chaotic gameplay that is Warframe?

Simplicity can lead to complexity without making it a mandatory part. It also fits WFs chaotic gameplay. For reference, compare Conclave stances to PvE stances. Conclave Stances feature shorter combos, all combos do arguably the same across all stances (RMB is for gap closing, Pause is for kill) and still remains a flashy display. PvE stances feature longer combos but they are also very animation locked and clunky, reason I've been requesting DE to allow Conclave stances in PvE, they lack PvE greater damage multipliers but make up for it in practicality.

13 hours ago, Casval_Rouge said:

Feel free to pick different points between each options to find what works best for you.  It would be interesting to see what would be the most popular option.

That depends on what melee systems the players have experimented and how would they mix with Warframe. Let me give you my insight using other games melee systems:

Dynasty Warriors:

Currently very similar to Warframe in the sense of being a melee vs horde and ocassionally a challenging opponent, however, in Warframe you face mostly ranged enemies while DW is almost completely melee, while there are ranged enemies they are often just enemy support and ranged characters still use mostly melee and close quarters combat. It's at minimum a 3 key melee system.

Prince of Persia:

Features a very complex melee system with different weapons and a two-key input, blocking is almost inpervious to any damage. However, it doesn't fit Warframe for the same reason DW system doesn't: ranged enemies mostly. PoP also pits you vs no more than 4 enemies at the time, while warframe you may face between 3 and 50 enemies at a time. PoP features acrobatic moves like using your weapon while running up a wall or jumping on objects and enemies.

Devil May Cry:

It perfectly integrates gunplay and melee play, something WF is advertised for with the "masters of gun & blade" line. However, DMC's loadout system works differently from WF's loadout, and in DMC you don't deal with Holster Rate horsesh*t you deal with in WF (couldn't we swap instantly by using our void powers to switch-teleport our weapons from hip/back to hands and viceversa?). Like our melee system, it features flashy moves, and a 1-key system (two-key if used in SwordMaster stance, which would be the WF equivalent of equiping the melee weapon).

I suggested reworking the loadout system in WF to allow for such features:

Spoiler

Current Loadout  >>> Suggested Loadout system

Primary (primary weapons only) >>> Weapon A (Primary, Secondary or Melee)

Secondary (secondary weapons only)>>> Weapon B (same, anything goes)

Melee (melee only) >>> Backup (Secondary or Melee, can be equiped by holding weapon swap key [default F] or when bleeding on the ground)

 

Quickmelee >>> Gun Melee

Quickmelee no longer attacks with a holstered melee weapon, instead smacks enemies with the gun. If a Gun Stance is equiped, 1-key combos are unlocked (similar to DMC's Gunslinger stance)

Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckogning:

Features Melee, Gun (well, Bow) and Powers, all 3 are equally effective depending on how you build your character (a mage-build allows you to cast spells for little cost, a rogue build improves bow combat, both rogue and might trees focus on melee combat). It's a 1-key melee system but works wonderfully by using pauses and charge attacks. Loadout consists of 2 weapons, which can be both melee, a bow and melee, mages also have ranged weapons (glaive-like Chakrams, Scepters that shoot magic and Staves that burn/freeze/electrify on a short radius). Difference with Warframe is that it's a 2d game (you can't jump and there isn't any form of verticality) and you don't face more than 5 enemies top (unless you scr*w up, and you WILL be scr*wed in general if you face that many unless you are very advanced)

[kapn655321]

If the intention of melee 2.0 was to make melee a viable method of attack, it succeeded.

I think general consensus agrees that it's good, but has room to improve.

More involvement of counters would be great. (Not as counter dependant as Assassins Creed or Arkham games, but a touch more like that.)
More Combos is always a plus.

But as for something simple that still deserves some attention.. When you swing mid-air, even after landing, there's a delay before you can attack again.
Doesn't happen with ground slam, but any other it does. I feel like that was an oversight left on the cutting room floor.

[Casval_Rouge]

On 10/25/2016 at 7:10 PM, kapn655321 said:

If the intention of melee 2.0 was to make melee a viable method of attack, it succeeded.

I think general consensus agrees that it's good, but has room to improve.

More involvement of counters would be great. (Not as counter dependant as Assassins Creed or Arkham games, but a touch more like that.)
More Combos is always a plus.

But as for something simple that still deserves some attention.. When you swing mid-air, even after landing, there's a delay before you can attack again.
Doesn't happen with ground slam, but any other it does. I feel like that was an oversight left on the cutting room floor.

I'm glad you mention the air attack delay problem, I noticed that many times and forgot to bring it up in the thread, thanks.

 

 

[kapn655321]

After 2000+hrs I still have -no- real idea how the counters even happen in this game.
I've heard it's a channel thing.. though it still sparsely happens now and then without.

Perhaps I am the thickest of the scrubs and have missed the crucially obvious this entire time,
But something tells me it's just kinda' vague or clumsy anyways.

Maybe it's cause I missed a tutorial somewhere. No idea though.
If I'm not alone in this, then that could be something worth touching up.

Edited October 27, 2016 by kapn655321