"Finisher" Augments and bleed

[Callback]

Do augments like Savage Silence, Radiant Finish, etc. increase the damage of bleed procs?  Since bleed procs deal "finisher" damage.

[Azrael]

yes.

[taiiat]

yes, but not because Slash Status deals Finisher Damage, as that's separate from performing a Finisher, but rather because it increases the Damage your Melee Weapon deals, by a huge amount.

[iSmallfry]

No, they don't. "Finisher" refers to the actual finisher moves those skills open enemies up for, in this case.

[iSmallfry]

19 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yes, but not because Slash Status deals Finisher Damage, as that's separate from performing a Finisher, but rather because it increases the Damage your Melee Weapon deals, by a huge amount.

Pretty sure you're mixing up the bonus those augments give with the stealth multipier. Blinds force the enemies into the unaware status, so you get unlimited stealth multipliers for the duration of the blind.

[taiiat]

Just now, iSmallfry said:

Pretty sure you're mixing up the bonus those augments give with the stealth multipier.

what?

 

i'll rewrite this:

yes, an Augment that increases Finisher Damage will increase Slash Status Damage.
but not because Slash Status deals Finisher Damage, but because you are increasing the Damage of a Finisher.

so if you perform a Finisher and apply Slash Status on that Finisher, with an Augment that increases Finisher Damage, the Damage of your Melee Weapon will be increased further, so that Slash Status you applied will deal more Damage.

[iSmallfry]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

what?

 

i'll rewrite this:

yes, an Augment that increases Finisher Damage will increase Slash Status Damage.
but not because Slash Status deals Finisher Damage, but because you are increasing the Damage of a Finisher.

so if you perform a Finisher and apply Slash Status on that Finisher, with an Augment that increases Finisher Damage, the Damage of your Melee Weapon will be increased further, so that Slash Status you applied will deal more Damage.

My bad, i seem to have misunderstood your post. Though, I believe OP is referring to slash procs in general, not procs generated by finishers.

Edited October 25, 2016 by iSmallfry

[(PSN)lhbuch]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

what?

 

i'll rewrite this:

yes, an Augment that increases Finisher Damage will increase Slash Status Damage.
but not because Slash Status deals Finisher Damage, but because you are increasing the Damage of a Finisher.

so if you perform a Finisher and apply Slash Status on that Finisher, with an Augment that increases Finisher Damage, the Damage of your Melee Weapon will be increased further, so that Slash Status you applied will deal more Damage.

Wow, it seems stupid but I never tried this. Does that mean that if I apply Inaros 1st power and them use my Atterax to apply slash status to those bunch of enemies, they will receive a higher slash proc when atterax is modded with a finisher mod?

[shut]

5 hours ago, Callback said:

Do augments like Savage Silence, Radiant Finish, etc. increase the damage of bleed procs?  Since bleed procs deal "finisher" damage.

Yes and no.

 

- Abilities like Radial Blind, which allow enemies to be hit for multiple consecutive stealth attacks (8x multiplier), WILL increase the damage of melee Slash / Toxin / Fire / etc procs as well. It'll actually increase their damage by 64x (and, for Gas, 512x) instead of the usual 8x due to a bug. This will happen regardless of whether the enemy is actually prone for a Finisher attack.

- Increasing Finisher damage, through Radiant Finish / Finishing Touch / etc, will NOT increase the innate damage of a Slash / Toxin / Fire / etc proc from a normal hit.
However, like taiiat said-- if you land such a proc from a Finisher attack, then they WILL do additional damage (from the augments and such) since proc damage scales on how much damage was dealt by the hit that activated them.

 

EDIT: Scratch that last bit. As Epsik-kun said below, Finishers (stealth/parry/etc) are actually unable to proc in the first place.

Edited October 26, 2016 by SortaRandom

[shut]

2 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Does that mean that if I apply Inaros 1st power and them use my Atterax to apply slash status to those bunch of enemies, they will receive a higher slash proc when atterax is modded with a finisher mod?

If you proc from a Finisher attack on a blind enemy, then yes.

If you proc from a regular attack on a blind enemy (which is the main appeal of the Atterax in the first place), then no.

Edited October 26, 2016 by SortaRandom
Finishers can't proc. Whoops!

[Epsik-kun]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes

No. Prompted finishers can't apply procs.

 

Except for ground finishers, though. Finishing Touch affects them. Frame augments do not. Radiant Finish, in particular, is a waste of a slot.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Beastwolf1]

So if you get a slash damage effect from a primary weapon, it's slash damage is NOT affected by your melee weapon. If not then how would slash damage be increased?

[Epsik-kun]

25 minutes ago, Beastwolf1 said:

primary weapon

Base damage mods - Serration, Heavy Caliber and so on.

[Xzorn]

Both Savage Silence and Radiant Finisher increase Bleed damage specifically because they do Finisher damage type. They also work with abilities that do Finisher damage like Equinox Maim, Hydroid Tentacles and Ash Bladestorm. You do not need to perform a Finisher attack to gain the increase in Bleed damage. The other finisher mods like Finishing Touch, I've not tested.

 

 

I've also tested in an all melee group using Ash, Banshee, Excal and Equinox. The result was ridiculous.

 

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I've also tested in an all melee group using Ash, Banshee, Excal and Equinox. The result was ridiculous.

I was deliberately avoiding saying that this was true, because I don't want it to become so widespread that DE nerfs it. It's surprising how many people still don't know about the interactions between blinds/sleeps/silence and DoT's like slash and toxin procs. Oh well, maybe they won't nerf it after all....  :)

[Epsik-kun]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Both Savage Silence and Radiant Finisher increase

They don't. You've done your testing incorrectly. The thing that increases the damage of bleeding is the Stealth Multiplier on both of your screenshots.

Neither Radiant Finish nor Savage Silence has a direct interaction with bleed.

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

They don't. You've done your testing incorrectly. The thing that increases the damage of bleeding is the Stealth Multiplier on both of your screenshots.

Neither Radiant Finish nor Savage Silence has a direct interaction with bleed.

You've obviously never used either. You should try playing a savage banshee.

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, Azrael said:

You've obviously

"obviously"

You should try using your head before talking. Excal's screenshot has an exact x8 damage increase from a Radial Blind effect compared to the original bleeding tick - which is pretty much impossible were Radial Finish to work with bleeding - as it'll push the multiplier far beyond x8.

 

Banshee's screenshot is even less credible, due to obviously having two completely different hits to trigger bleeding. However, the thing to know here is that Savage Silence also forces Stealth Multipliers onto enemies during its initial stun.

Maybe, just maybe, I am saying what I'm saying because I went and tested it, instead of making incorrect statements based on assumptions made without understanding the game's mechanics.

[Azrael]

42 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Maybe, just maybe, I am saying what I'm saying because I went and tested it, instead of making incorrect statements based on assumptions made without understanding the game's mechanics.

You said that savage silence has no interaction with bleed procs. If you use silence and proc bleed, it does some damage. If you install savage silence and then use silence and proc bleed, it does a lot more. So how do you justify claiming that savage silence doesn't interact with bleed? The exact reason that savage silence behaves this way doesn't change the fact that there is interaction there. If using a mod results in increased bleed damage, it is obviously true that the mod increases bleed damage, and you have claimed that they do not.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

"obviously"

You should try using your head before talking. Excal's screenshot has an exact x8 damage increase from a Radial Blind effect compared to the original bleeding tick - which is pretty much impossible were Radial Finish to work with bleeding - as it'll push the multiplier far beyond x8.

Banshee's screenshot is even less credible, due to obviously having two completely different hits to trigger bleeding. However, the thing to know here is that Savage Silence also forces Stealth Multipliers onto enemies during its initial stun.

Maybe, just maybe, I am saying what I'm saying because I went and tested it, instead of making incorrect statements based on assumptions made without understanding the game's mechanics.

 

I've done the testing without stealth as well much after the initial stun effect of Silence. The bleed damage is still amplified. I assumed this was because Savage Silence has a finisher effect attached to it which somehow carries over but Silence itself gives stealth bleed bonus. Those pictures are not tests. They were simply to show a result.

I did the first attack ONLY with Prisma Cleavers, only at x2 combo and only after being invisible for ~30 seconds. Despite being consistent I still got strange numbers that could not be calculated by either stealth multiplier or the mod. The Banshee pic is no different and shows one of those strange results. The Excal pic is actually less reliable since I took the pic from the same bleed effect before and after Blind when I should have applied a new one but since that would require a different attack type due to auto-finishers and double dipping,  I went with a before and after.

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, Azrael said:

You said that savage silence has no interaction with bleed procs

I said precisely "Neither Radiant Finish nor Savage Silence has a direct interaction with bleed", which is the topic of this thread, which is what the post I've been quoting was addressing. The only increase they provide is done via stealth damage multipliers, which are not affected by the Radiant Finish and are a non-direct interaction for the Savage Silence.

You can use Savage Silence to get more damage from your bleed, I had never argued against that. But you will  be achieving that via utilizing stealth multipliers, not the multiplier provided by the augment. The same multiplier can be achieved by Invisibility + Blast combo and all sources of Blind. You can even time regular Silence for one or two ticks of stealth amplified proc.

 

Saying "Savage Silence increases Bleed damage specifically because it does Finisher damage type" is an inherently wrong statement that assumes the "300% Finisher damage increase" on the augment has anything to do with the actual damage increase, which it doesn't. And given you were quoting my post that explicitly specified that the reason for the damage increase was the stealth multiplier - it's safe to assume you also were under that impression. Now you know how it works - you're welcome.

The main problem with spreading such misinformation with "i-it's close enough" reasoning is that it's guaranteed to result in players using a max power-strength builds with Radial Finish or Savage Silence for amplifying their bleed damage just because "some dudes on forums said it works". And no, they won't test it for themselves, but they will for sure go around bragging in Region how great their build is because "it works for them", spawning even more mindless copycat hamsters resulting in yet another meta-stupidity like we have currently, when people think "Telos Boltace is crazy OP. Atterax is meh. Tempo Royale is the highest DPS stance in the game. Oberon is a jack of all trades" and so on.

 

[Epsik-kun]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

I've done the testing without stealth as well much after the initial stun effect of Silence

I highly doubt that. Because I've done the same exact testing (twice), while checking results of the Silence stun, its static effect, and regular stealth multiplier. And the results were "consistent" for me too. I also hope that you did your "testing without Stealth" correctly because even stepping away from a bleeding target results in stealth multipliers activating unless you're actively preventing them from doing so. To be honest, it's pretty easy to figure out - you will only get yellow numbers on bleeding ticks when they are amplified by stealth.

The "strange numbers" you were getting are the result of you using Ancient as your target. They have four different body part multipliers - Head, Torso, Back, and Limbs. And then you also have a critical and non-critical attack.

With Excal you can skip the prompted finisher by slash-dashing the target.

[Azrael]

38 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

are a non-direct interaction for the Savage Silence.

Oh, I see, "non-direct." So you're right because you've decided to use ambiguous and confusing language. Okay then. I don't see anything in the op about whether or not those interactions count as being "direct" or whether they are "indirect," but if you feel like using those terms it sure would be nice if you defined them in this context. As it is it feels like you're "moving the goalposts," by saying "they don't increase bleed damage" and then saying "well they do but it doesn't count."

It would have been much more useful and less confusing to say something like "they result in an increase, but not for the reason that some people think." And then you could, you know, explain what you mean.

 

That being said, I did not, in fact, know that the mod bonus was irrelevant when using savage silence. I will have to test it, but if true then I thank you for this knowledge. It would have been nice to not hear it in that arrogant condescending tone you like so much, but it's still nice to know. I'll grant that I initially accused you of not having used Savage Silence (on account of misunderstanding your vague statement about "directly interacting," what you said seemed very obviously wrong), and I'm sorry for that. I'm just saying this could have been avoided with some clearer communication.

Now I guess I'll have to try minimum power strength on banshee and see what happens.

[Xzorn]

30 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

I highly doubt that. Because I've done the same exact testing (twice), while checking results of the Silence stun, its static effect, and regular stealth multiplier. And the results were "consistent" for me too. I also hope that you did your "testing without Stealth" correctly because even stepping away from a bleeding target results in stealth multipliers activating unless you're actively preventing them from doing so. To be honest, it's pretty easy to figure out - you will only get yellow numbers on bleeding ticks when they are amplified by stealth.

The "strange numbers" you were getting are the result of you using Ancient as your target. They have four different body part multipliers - Head, Torso, Back, and Limbs. And then you also have a critical and non-critical attack.

With Excal you can skip the prompted finisher by slash-dashing the target.

 

I already explained my misinterpretation of the damage bonus due to Silence giving you a stealth bonus. I'm not sure why you feel the need to continue while calling me a liar.

I do test things before I make claims and sometimes I make mistakes which I admit to rather than being wrong and using an exploit to win the argument.

[Epsik-kun]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I already explained my misinterpretation of the damage bonus due to Silence giving you a stealth bonus. I'm not sure why you feel the need to continue while calling me a liar.

 

 

 

I think I've misunderstood you there. I apologize for that.

24 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Okay then. I don't see anything in the op

The OP is clearly asking whether or not "increased finisher damage" increases bleeding damage and augments are used as examples of such modifier.

24 minutes ago, Azrael said:

It would have been much more useful and less confusing to say something like "they result in an increase, but not for the reason that some people think." And then you could, you know, explain what you mean.

 

 

 

It would. But like you dislike being mentored in an arrogant tone, I dislike when my words are disregarded without any sign of a doubt - I take it as a direct insult and react accordingly.

24 minutes ago, Azrael said:

I'm sorry for that

Accepted. I'm sorry for being rude - I'm just a rude person in general, don't take it personally.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[(PSN)lhbuch]

4 hours ago, Azrael said:

I was deliberately avoiding saying that this was true, because I don't want it to become so widespread that DE nerfs it. It's surprising how many people still don't know about the interactions between blinds/sleeps/silence and DoT's like slash and toxin procs. Oh well, maybe they won't nerf it after all....  :)

Yeah my feeling as well. People saying that tonkor is a beast when there are other mechanics that just wreck anything...