Sorties / High Level missions and constantly reviving players

[Golmihr]

On 8/11/2016 at 8:40 AM, erny0507 said:

Quick thinking? 

Quick Thinking is overrated. I have even seen a youTube star put QT on Inaros, which made it the dumbest build I have seen. Most of the time Redirection, Vitality or possible extra armor will probably benefit your survivability more. When QT is active strong hits will even cause you to stagger.

 

Some frames does benefit from it but it should not be considered universal.

I have a strong suspicion that players who get downed a lot and are terrible as a result all run glass cannon builds with Quick thinking.

 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Golmihr

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

As a guy who brought Excalibur into an interception sortie, I went down once or twice. I have Vitality and redirection on my build. The other 2 sorties? No downs. Radial Blind + EB = OP

(Note: I use EB when in a clutch)

[Insizer]

If I have to revive someone more than once a minute or so and can see that they are having no positive impact on the team then I'll let them stay down. 

[DEATHLOK]

I try my best to revive anyone I can in every match. I don't judge.

I prefer to save my anger and frustration for unwelcome game changes.

[erny0507]

3 hours ago, Golmihr said:

Quick Thinking is overrated. I dont think so.

 I have even seen a youTube star put QT on Inaros, which made it the dumbest build I have seen. Agree, is pretty dump unless the mission is level 150 and you need all the survability available. Most of the time Redirection, Vitality or possible extra armor will probably benefit your survivability more.Depends on the wf really. When QT is active strong hits will even cause you to stagger. Yeah but you have to roll so you avoid the stagger and also the incoming damage. Is like a warning, "roll or die".

Some frames does benefit from it but it should not be considered universal. True. No universal but the OP said   A Mag, Volt, Mirage.

Mag is not suited for QT, but mirage and volt indeed are.

I have a strong suspicion that players who get downed a lot and are terrible as a result all run glass cannon builds with Quick thinking. I dont think so, maybe those players failed to use right QT but you shouldnt blame us all to be terrible for using QT. I use it in some frames that have a good energy pool and I use them in sorties and sometimes i end up revive a lot of other players.

 

 

[achromos]

On my Nyx I run base health/Shields because Chaos + Augment = lol, also Absorption + Augment = come at me bro!

[Golmihr]

13 hours ago, erny0507 said:

 

Even with just an average 100 base shield a Redirect adds 360 shield (Health adds even more because of armor). That matches 150 spare energy with a max rank QT. Having that is often not a problem when things are going well but if you depend on skills for your survivability or run into a leach or parasite eximus (Most common infested eximus) and that might not be the case. Energy should be used for CC or healing abilities when things get tough. Situational survivability that favor the easy parts of the mission just isn't good enough.

 

And for Inaros. He can have 5280 health with 710 armor (+200 from scarab swarm) at max rank which is a 70.3% damage reduction. It would do a lot more for his survivability to use his small energy pool to cast his cone blind which allows him to leach 20% health back from each finisher attack. So no, not even in your scenario would QT be a smart choice on him.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Golmihr

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Golmihr said:

That matches 150 spare energy with a max rank QT.

Except that since nobody runs QT without flow or primed flow, having 150 energy is the same as being almost out of energy. Any more than that and you're better off with QT. If I'm running around with 637 energy (as trin prime, for example) I have to use more than 3/4 of my energy to reach 150 spare energy. The vast majority of the time I will have a lot more than that.

Sure there are very good arguments for not using QT, depending on the frame and situation. But people aren't wrong for using it, either.

[Golmihr]

56 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Except that since nobody runs QT without flow or primed flow, having 150 energy is the same as being almost out of energy. Any more than that and you're better off with QT. If I'm running around with 637 energy (as trin prime, for example) I have to use more than 3/4 of my energy to reach 150 spare energy. The vast majority of the time I will have a lot more than that.

Sure there are very good arguments for not using QT, depending on the frame and situation. But people aren't wrong for using it, either.

I didn't say people were wrong for using it. I said they were wrong for considering it universal. I also said QT is generally overrated. The 150 energy limit means that when the situation gets tough and probably calls for a lot of ability use your Trinity better hope she got at least 150 energy left when her health reaches 0 or the mod is wasted over the alternative, something fairly common energy draining mobs can affect. This isn't about the majority of the time. The majority of the time during a run you probably need neither heath/armor/shield mods nor QT and sure, there you probably got more than 150 energy.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Golmihr

[Azrael]

44 minutes ago, Golmihr said:

The 150 energy limit means that when the situation gets tough and probably calls for a lot of ability use your Trinity better hope she got at least 150 energy left when her health reaches 0 or the mod is wasted over the alternative

Generally when my trin's health hits 0 I have way more energy than that, some of which I then use to bless and link, having been warned by QT that I'm about to die. On my bless/link build QT works out very, very well. I don't run it on Inaros, though.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

15 hours ago, Golmihr said:

When QT is active strong hits will even cause you to stagger.

This really needs to be removed. It is a hold over from when QT + Rage made you legitimately immortal. It has no purpose anymore.  It's why QT in only useful on frames that can ignore that stagger, like Trinity with Link up.

[Relentless.Zen]

Dont play Sorties or just stop crying. Thanks

[Golmihr]

2 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Generally when my trin's health hits 0 I have way more energy than that, some of which I then use to bless and link, having been warned by QT that I'm about to die. On my bless/link build QT works out very, very well. I don't run it on Inaros, though.

To be fair, Trinity is one of the frames that benefit a lot from QT because of her abilities. I wouldn't put QT on an Excalibur however.

[Azrael]

25 minutes ago, Golmihr said:

To be fair, Trinity is one of the frames that benefit a lot from QT because of her abilities. I wouldn't put QT on an Excalibur however.

But excal is one of the frames that can ignore the stagger! I guess for him it depends on your gear and playstyle. If you rarely use abilities or if you're using Energize you'll probably have close to max energy all the time.

[Golmihr]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

But excal is one of the frames that can ignore the stagger! I guess for him it depends on your gear and playstyle. If you rarely use abilities or if you're using Energize you'll probably have close to max energy all the time.

Because if my math is correct, Vitality gives him 440 health and with 225 armor that is an effective which is an extra 771 effective health. With Primed Flow he got what? 325 energy. That's 780 converted health with QT so sure, if he is on max energy then it is equal assuming he doesn't use abilities to save his butt.

 

But sure it depends on play style. Which is why just blindly copying popular builds is bad.

 

Then expanding on that, with 740 health and 225 armor he got an effective health of 1296 (1/(1-0.4286) * 740). Increase his armor to 472 with Steel Fiber and his damage reduction is now (472/772) 61.14% which should be an effective health around 1904, a 608 difference.

Then finally we got 440 extra shield from redirection. Without any good way to heal, shields should be a priority if they constantly gets broken and your health slowly chipped away at. So again playstyle.

 

All maybe better solutions than QT. That is, if no imba way of restoring energy is present.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Golmihr

[RistN]

Very,very small number of cc and buff built warframes have a choice of putting redirection and vitality on.And they perform better in high lvl missions then tanky ones.Building warframes to be durable against building it that you're whole squad benefit from its abilities is what I call selfish.

Opposite thing is what makes me irritated.It is when you're squadmates don't whach you're back when you're using  cc frame and which is  in fact a reason you all are completing missions easy and successful.

[Azrael]

8 hours ago, Golmihr said:

Then expanding on that, with 740 health and 225 armor he got an effective health of 1296 (1/(1-0.4286) * 740). Increase his armor to 472 with Steel Fiber and his damage reduction is now

But doesn't QT benefit from armor? I've heard that it did, which makes sense because it's still damage to health. The game generates a hit to your health, works out how much damage it will be (which is partially based on your armor), then mitigates the lethal portion with energy at 240% efficiency. The wiki is mum on this point, but it wouldn't be the first time it left out something important.

[Golmihr]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

But doesn't QT benefit from armor? I've heard that it did, which makes sense because it's still damage to health. The game generates a hit to your health, works out how much damage it will be (which is partially based on your armor), then mitigates the lethal portion with energy at 240% efficiency. The wiki is mum on this point, but it wouldn't be the first time it left out something important.

Maybe it does (Haven't checked) but in the example above you couldn't even cast abilities and had to be at max energy if you wanted to match a Vitality mod.

Anyway, it's just my own view on it. I always build for vit, shield and armor if decent, practically never go down (Movement and awareness matters a lot too) and still often manage to top damage done and that is while often spending time reviving team mates. And when I check the shield/health of those I revive I see a pattern of low numbers. Of course I can't see their builds but when I check youTube they always recommend no survivability mods except QT. I don't think I have ever equipped QT except on Limbo.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Golmihr

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Golmihr said:

Maybe it does (Haven't checked) but in the example above you couldn't even cast abilities and had to be at max energy if you wanted to match a Vitality mod.

Excal gets 425 energy with primed flow, not 325.

And (for example) Volt, Ivara, Nova, Trin, Loki, and Limbo (among others) all benefit hugely from QT. It's not good only on Limbo.

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Excal gets 425 energy with primed flow, not 325.

And (for example) Volt, Ivara, Nova, Trin, Loki, and Limbo (among others) all benefit hugely from QT. It's not good only on Limbo.

As Ivara, I found QT to be a waste of a slot when I tried using it.  This was after trying and testing a few times just to be sure.  The end result was I was either stunned/staggered, energy drained, and/or died in next attack.  Not saying that it doesn't have uses.  Just wiping out your energy reserves and being stunned/staggered as Ivara isn't something I really want happening.  It's better for me to use that slot for something else and just not be seen or hit by the enemy at all.  :D

P.S.  Life Strike is king.  I use it on all melees and all frames.  Love it. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added content.

[TheLexiConArtist]

All Redir/Vitality all the time here. Excepting the obvious Inaros (and Valkyr if I ever used her).

Once shieldgating is a thing, it's going to be even easier to live.

 

Turns out when you have Redirection/Vitality and a sentinel with Guardian and Medi-Ray, giving you about 400% of your unmodded shields and 224% of your unmodded health for the enemies to chew through, you have ample time to react in 99% of cases. Having enough health to buffer until Guardian kicks in, refilling those big ol' shields all over again, while the Medi-Ray makes sure that buffer is nice and topped up as long as you play with caution.

 

If you can't survive with that, outside of those bothersome edge cases (no amount of anything will protect you when an Elementally Enhanced Tech gets all up in your business after suffering a knockdown), you should probably have a refresher course on your evasion and mitigation tactics. Don't sit there and get shot at all day.

Also rolling. I'm pretty certain that the number of people who realise just how powerful rolling is defensively are dwindling by the day. 75% reduction will do a lot to soften those toxin and slash procs, just roll back and forth to the rhythm of the ticks!

 

 

My no-revive list generally includes anyone using degenerate gameplay much more so than people who didn't come defensively equipped. Get your simulorage and quake banshees out of my pubmatches. Contrarily, I'm that one guy who flies through 4 rooms at the speed of sound to backtrack and pick up the poor bastard who got caught up in one too many mobs when their bleedout timer hits 00:00 just as I start spraying the green goodness. Last second saves from several rooms away feel awesome.

 

I find amusement in the never-not-kissing-the-ground types more often than not. Especially when I have someone to whom I can joke about it as I'm going to pick them up for the fiftieth time. My cellmates keep dyin' all the time, dyin' all the time, dyin' all the tiii-iime~♪

[Guest]

On 07/11/2016 at 8:21 AM, Troll_Logic said:

There is a new trend in sorties and high level missions and I'm hating it.  I have no idea how it started or why, and if a player does it I'm never reviving that player in a game.

What's the trend?  Using a squishy frame without vitality or redirection equipped.

It's starting to get really bad and really commonplace.  A Mag, Volt, Mirage shows up with 300 health and 300 shields and they drop ALL THE TIME throughout the mission.  At least once a minute, if not more.

Here is the conversation that always happens.

 

Me:  "Really dude?  You're running 300 health and 300 shields."

Selfish Tenno:  "Yeah, man.  I'm good."

Me:  "It's really selfish of you." (maybe throw in an expletive as well)

Selfish Tenno:  "I know what I'm doing.  I'm a really good player."

Me:  "I can tell when you're dropping twice a minute."

Selfish Tenno:  "What does my build got to do with you?"

Me:  "Other players are dying because we have to revive you at least once a minute."

 

I hate this.  It's selfish.  It's short sighted.  It's annoying.  I have no idea why any player would want to run around with no shields and no redirection on a sortie or high level mission and obviously be a liability for the team but they keep doing it.  

Before someone says "But I can do it!!!!"  Yes, a SMALL number of HIGHLY SKILLED players playing THE RIGHT WARFRAME know what they are doing and can do this.  I'm not talking to the MR22 Loki's that have 80% of their playing time in a Loki.  This is about the squishy Mags, Volts, Mirages, Embers, and so on who don't want to install an extra forma.

Before someone knee-jerks and types "He's trolling", you know this is a problem.  Asking a player to equip AT LEAST EITHER VITALITY OR REDIRECTION FOR SOME SURVIVABILITY is not being unreasonable.  At all.

 

Warframe is a team game.  Think of the team when you build out your warframe and don't cripple the team because you don't want to forma your warframe one more time.  Be a strong member of the team that contributes to the team and makes the team strong.

Don't make the rest of the team carry you.

Damn if you do, damn if you don't. You said it yourself: "Warframe is a team game".

You do realise that there may have been a sortie / high level mission that your build may not have been effective, yet the team did put some effort into reviving you, No?

Its all about how the team plays in my opinion. There is nothing more that angers me than that one player in a sortie mobile defence or survival which goes running off in their own direction.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Guest

[Golmihr]

8 hours ago, Azrael said:

Excal gets 425 energy with primed flow, not 325.

And (for example) Volt, Ivara, Nova, Trin, Loki, and Limbo (among others) all benefit hugely from QT. It's not good only on Limbo.

Just to remind you again, I never said no frames benefit from QT, just that it is overrated. Calling the benefit of QT in those cases you mention "Huge" is an overstatement though.

But as I mentioned, I wasn't sure of his total and just guessed 325 to illustrate (I still would not put it on an Excal).

Let's look at where it matters and not the simulacrum: I think that situation awareness is what counts and if properly build without QT any frame can survive the typical stray bullets in sorties. Energy is far from a sure thing to be well supplied on. Personally I have had plenty of time where things went sideways and I found myself low on energy be it from parasites in a nearby room or team mates going down too often and I need to cast expensive CC before reviving, etc. All those times would likely had ended in failure had I relied on QT instead of vit/redirect. (The rest of the time it wouldn't had mattered if I had relied on vit/redirect or QT as I would had survived anyway)

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Golmihr

[Troll_Logic]

On 11/10/2016 at 10:51 PM, Chimpers007 said:

Damn if you do, damn if you don't. You said it yourself: "Warframe is a team game".

That's right.  Team play works both ways.

On 11/10/2016 at 10:51 PM, Chimpers007 said:

You do realise that there may have been a sortie / high level mission that your build may not have been effective, yet the team did put some effort into reviving you, No?

Of course.  But having the wrong config for a mission (built for CC instead of maximum duration) isn't what I'm talking about.

On 11/10/2016 at 10:51 PM, Chimpers007 said:

Its all about how the team plays in my opinion. There is nothing more that angers me than that one player in a sortie mobile defence or survival which goes running off in their own direction.

Exactly.