Something needs to be done about rivens as soon as possible

[Cpl_Facehugger]

50 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Exactly! You are right! But this a problem inherent to the guns <-> mods interaction. DE recognized that and stated it several times on the dev streams. Damage 3.0.

Please explain to me, how combining Seration and Split chamber in one mod will be benefical for gameplay in the light of a coming damage rework which is aiming for removing mods that only provide a raw damage increase?

Please understand, I also want to see more variety. But Riven mods as they are now, do more damage than good to the game.

 

 

Damage 3.0 that DE has been pointedly avoiding talking about, that is? We'll see what happens with that, but I'm pretty sure these mods coming out like this proves that D3.0 won't be the savior you're praying for.

But in any event Combining serration and split chamber in one mod is beneficial for gameplay right now because it does two things:

On powerful guns, it unchains you from needing to have serration and split chamber on your gun. You can remove both, slot in a riven mod, and gain another slot for whatever you want. Now you can also just stack more damage if you want, but for the most part that damage is superflous on the really powerful guns. Simulor, tonkor, etc don't need the extra damage unless you're going balls deep on endless missions with level 300 enemies or the like.

On weak guns, these mods serve the same function that syndicate mods do - they make weaker guns (furis lol) worth using. Suddenly you can bring a braton to a sortie, say "dude, I got this. Riven mod" and actually be successful.

So to be honest, I don't see the damage you're fearing.My tonkor that I don't use to begin with can now theoretically do 100k instead of 50k damage if I luck out or whale it, when the enemies in sorties can barely survive that to begin with.

 

41 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

 

For example, if a person gets a great riven mod for the Hind, the weapon suddenly becomes more viable.  Yeah, I know, some folks white knight around under the premise that any weapon can already do any content, but that makes as much sense as claiming any car can drive on racetrack in Daytona.  Sure, you can do it and get all the way around, but that doesn't make your Prius a race car.

Now get a mod like the Soma example in this thread, and compared to anything the Hind could ever get you've still maintained the status quo of Some>Hind, and in fact you've exacerbated it to a great degree for the very white knight reasoning of "any weapon can do any content".  So now you've got a singular mod that replaces crit damage and crit chance.  If you where already making enough damage and don't feel the need to make more, you can instead replace that with punch through and reload, giving yourself a soma that does the same damage as today but punches through walls and reloads in 1.2 seconds.  For example, of course.

Ultimately, and new content challenge will have to deal with this equipment or ignore it completely and give us more arbitrary operator gimmick.  Neither, in my opinion, is a good road.

I don't think you understand why people are "white knighting" this system if you use that analogy.

Right now, we have a highway that only certain cars can drive on. This highway, called high level play, is restricted to a very small number of weapons. Tonkor, dread, soma prime, synoid simulor, the tigris family, the hek family, and a number of secondaries and melees. Maybe a few others I'm forgetting.

Riven mods act as a supercharger for every engine. The soma gets faster. The tonkor gets faster. Yes. But this doesn't really matter in the long run - any damage over and above enemy ehp is lost because you can't kill an enemy deader than dead.

Meanwhile, suddenly, all those cars - the bratons, hinds, burstons, harpaks, etc that previously were too slow to drive on the high level highway at all can. They won't do the same amount of damage as the top shelf guns, but they can hold their own and not drag down the team. This is a tremendous upside to the system.

Now, you say suddenly soma can mount shred instead of a damage mod. I say... What's the bad thing about this? It increases build diversity, what's the downside?

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Without.

Then no. The weapon tier system is a good idea that needs expansion, but it shouldn't be jettisoned wholesale. Riven mods allow endgame players to sidestep it and haul their beloved beginner guns into endgame play, effectively giving us the best of both worlds.

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

• progressing power creep 10 steps at once
• tossing balance concepts away
• implementing mechanics/power levels without actual corresponding content in the game (MK-1 example)
• new mandatory mods

1. I don't particularly mind power creep in context of warframe, where the only thing it actually affects is content that DE has said they don't intend to balance (ie endless missions.) To wit, your tonkor is already strong enough for sorties which means the extra damage you so fear is effectively meaningless.

2. I don't see how it's tossing balance concepts away when the mods you're screeching about are so rare that they aren't going to be balanced around. What these mods do is let the exceptionally lucky feel powerful, or let the exceptionally wealthy buy them off the exceptionally lucky and thus inject cash into the game. But you can't buy kuva or riven mods from DE, only the player market, so it's not P2W, and the only advantage of these mods - raw power - is meaningless in the content we actually do.

3. Ah but they have implemented corresponding content. We've always had corresponding content. This lets us go deeper in endless missions. Some guys like that. I don't, but some do. DE could do with making a "start at level 140 and scale up rapidly" node precisely for players who like this instead of making them spend an hour killing low level mooks, but for the vast majority of players, going above level 140 is meaningless except for e-peen.

4. These mods won't ever be mandatory because of their rarity any more than primed chamber is mandatory for sniper mods. The tonkor critada you complain of and hold as the example of "OP"? I'll be hugely surprised if by this time next year there's more than a thousand of them in the game assuming DE makes no changes to the system at all, because that's how statistically difficult getting that is. Serration is mandatory because everyone can easily get one and on top of that it's mandatory because sortie enemy levels are such that you need a certain level of damage output to kill.

[GrimAtrament]

2 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Damage 3.0 that DE has been pointedly avoiding talking about, that is? We'll see what happens with that, but I'm pretty sure these mods coming out like this proves that D3.0 won't be the savior you're praying for.

But in any event Combining serration and split chamber in one mod is beneficial for gameplay right now because it does two things:

On powerful guns, it unchains you from needing to have serration and split chamber on your gun. You can remove both, slot in a riven mod, and gain another slot for whatever you want. Now you can also just stack more damage if you want, but for the most part that damage is superflous on the really powerful guns. Simulor, tonkor, etc don't need the extra damage unless you're going balls deep on endless missions with level 300 enemies or the like.

On weak guns, these mods serve the same function that syndicate mods do - they make weaker guns (furis lol) worth using. Suddenly you can bring a braton to a sortie, say "dude, I got this. Riven mod" and actually be successful.

So to be honest, I don't see the damage you're fearing.My tonkor that I don't use to begin with can now theoretically do 100k instead of 50k damage if I luck out or whale it, when the enemies in sorties can barely survive that to begin with.

 

I don't think you understand why people are "white knighting" this system if you use that analogy.

Right now, we have a highway that only certain cars can drive on. This highway, called high level play, is restricted to a very small number of weapons. Tonkor, dread, soma prime, synoid simulor, the tigris family, the hek family, and a number of secondaries and melees. Maybe a few others I'm forgetting.

Riven mods act as a supercharger for every engine. The soma gets faster. The tonkor gets faster. Yes. But this doesn't really matter in the long run - any damage over and above enemy ehp is lost because you can't kill an enemy deader than dead.

Meanwhile, suddenly, all those cars - the bratons, hinds, burstons, harpaks, etc that previously were too slow to drive on the high level highway at all can. They won't do the same amount of damage as the top shelf guns, but they can hold their own and not drag down the team. This is a tremendous upside to the system.

Now, you say suddenly soma can mount shred instead of a damage mod. I say... What's the bad thing about this? It increases build diversity, what's the downside?

Then no. The weapon tier system is a good idea that needs expansion, but it shouldn't be jettisoned wholesale. Riven mods allow endgame players to sidestep it and haul their beloved beginner guns into endgame play, effectively giving us the best of both worlds.

1. I don't particularly mind power creep in context of warframe, where the only thing it actually affects is content that DE has said they don't intend to balance (ie endless missions.) To wit, your tonkor is already strong enough for sorties which means the extra damage you so fear is effectively meaningless.

2. I don't see how it's tossing balance concepts away when the mods you're screeching about are so rare that they aren't going to be balanced around. What these mods do is let the exceptionally lucky feel powerful, or let the exceptionally wealthy buy them off the exceptionally lucky and thus inject cash into the game. But you can't buy kuva or riven mods from DE, only the player market, so it's not P2W, and the only advantage of these mods - raw power - is meaningless in the content we actually do.

3. Ah but they have implemented corresponding content. We've always had corresponding content. This lets us go deeper in endless missions. Some guys like that. I don't, but some do. DE could do with making a "start at level 140 and scale up rapidly" node precisely for players who like this instead of making them spend an hour killing low level mooks, but for the vast majority of players, going above level 140 is meaningless except for e-peen.

4. These mods won't ever be mandatory because of their rarity any more than primed chamber is mandatory for sniper mods. The tonkor critada you complain of and hold as the example of "OP"? I'll be hugely surprised if by this time next year there's more than a thousand of them in the game assuming DE makes no changes to the system at all, because that's how statistically difficult getting that is. Serration is mandatory because everyone can easily get one and on top of that it's mandatory because sortie enemy levels are such that you need a certain level of damage output to kill.

^ this can i save your comment please

Edited November 14, 2016 by hazerddex

[Mr._Clean]

16 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

In essence, they're removing mandatory mods by making more powerful mandatory mods, instead of fixing the problem at its core.

Yup. New mandatory mods that are RNG^4 based.

 

[StabbyTentacles]

1 hour ago, Thrymm said:

I don't really understand why a person would need an explanation as to why these are bad the way they are.  Nobody can be that short sighted, can they?

It's pretty simple, really.  On the surface you get the fun "we can play with other weapons" concept, but with the reality of the implementation that isn't the long term effect.

For example, if a person gets a great riven mod for the Hind, the weapon suddenly becomes more viable.  Yeah, I know, some folks white knight around under the premise that any weapon can already do any content, but that makes as much sense as claiming any car can drive on racetrack in Daytona.  Sure, you can do it and get all the way around, but that doesn't make your Prius a race car.

Now get a mod like the Soma example in this thread, and compared to anything the Hind could ever get you've still maintained the status quo of Some>Hind, and in fact you've exacerbated it to a great degree for the very white knight reasoning of "any weapon can do any content".  So now you've got a singular mod that replaces crit damage and crit chance.  If you where already making enough damage and don't feel the need to make more, you can instead replace that with punch through and reload, giving yourself a soma that does the same damage as today but punches through walls and reloads in 1.2 seconds.  For example, of course.

Ultimately, and new content challenge will have to deal with this equipment or ignore it completely and give us more arbitrary operator gimmick.  Neither, in my opinion, is a good road.

Yeah, this is either a blind short sighted cash grab, or contents about to triple in complexity and diversity; hmmmm wonder which it is?

2 hours ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

By definition it isn't P2W since all riven mods come from the players. P2W means paying for power that you can't otherwise obtain, but you can absolutely obtain this power through honest play.

LOL ^ 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Just now, StabbyTentacles said:

 

LOL ^ 

Can you get these mods without paying a cent? Can you get these mods without any plat at all? Yes? Then it's not P2W. Are you likely to get them? No, because they're so rare as to be statistical anomalies. Nobody's likely to get them. That's the reason it's not P2W.

I think everyone needs to think about what P2W is and what makes it bad before they start talking about monetization systems in games.

P2W is bad because it creates stratifications between players, giving the majority of the paying side an advantage that the non-paying side (who exists to provide warm bodies to play with/against in F2P monetization schemes) can't ever match.

However, you can't buy these mods from anywhere except the player market. Which means that at the end of the day, someone had to get these things through free methods.
Moreover, the number of these mods in circulation is limited to the number of really lucky people who get one, which means supply is and will remain small for the forseeable future.

There will be no stratification, thus, because of how rare these mods are. Not every whale who wants ultimate power will be able to get one at will any more than any whale who wants the ultimate in status symbols (primed chamber) can. The vast, vast majority of paying players will have to content themselves with the same mods as anyone else. These mods will never become common enough to become mandatory or to provide a noticeable advantage to whales as a whole.

[Hahsanumat]

A lot of people seem to be defending the current state of affairs RE: riven mods by pointing out that the skeptics among us cannot see the future- I'll stipulate to that. But I *can* remember the past, and in the past I've seen games I've liked go down the toilet because of a single bad design decision. Obviously the re-veiled trade scam is an oversight that they'll fix soon, that's not what I'm worried about in the long term. The idea of semi-random mods is not unsalvageable, either. But the present system is going to rapidly stratify the community into people who have godly rivens through blind luck, malfeasance, or irl wealth, and people who don't. Will it impact gameplay when it's already possible to steamroll most content with non-random mods? Probably not.

But that's not the point. The idea that there are really cool things out there that have a substantial impact in-game that you will ALMOST CERTAINLY NEVER HAVE simply because you are not lucky or rich enough is unbelievably discouraging, and will drive people away from the game. Again, this is not simply a guess- I've seen it happen before in other games. Founder-exclusive stuff might have the same criticism leveled against it, and there is some merit to that, but those primes are not really meaningfully better than the stuff still available in-game.

I still think that the best and easiest fix to this is just just make rivens account-bound like primed fury, and making it easier to reroll or control the weapon you get one for. That will immediately turn the system from an economic nightmare into what I think (I hope) it was originally intended to be, which is a fun new customization and personalization system for long-term players.

[notlamprey]

3 minutes ago, Hahsanumat said:

A lot of people seem to be defending the current state of affairs RE: riven mods by pointing out that the skeptics among us cannot see the future- I'll stipulate to that. But I *can* remember the past, and in the past I've seen games I've liked go down the toilet because of a single bad design decision. Obviously the re-veiled trade scam is an oversight that they'll fix soon, that's not what I'm worried about in the long term. The idea of semi-random mods is not unsalvageable, either. But the present system is going to rapidly stratify the community into people who have godly rivens through blind luck, malfeasance, or irl wealth, and people who don't. Will it impact gameplay when it's already possible to steamroll most content with non-random mods? Probably not.

But that's not the point. The idea that there are really cool things out there that have a substantial impact in-game that you will ALMOST CERTAINLY NEVER HAVE simply because you are not lucky or rich enough is unbelievably discouraging, and will drive people away from the game. Again, this is not simply a guess- I've seen it happen before in other games. Founder-exclusive stuff might have the same criticism leveled against it, and there is some merit to that, but those primes are not really meaningfully better than the stuff still available in-game.

I still think that the best and easiest fix to this is just just make rivens account-bound like primed fury, and making it easier to reroll or control the weapon you get one for. That will immediately turn the system from an economic nightmare into what I think (I hope) it was originally intended to be, which is a fun new customization and personalization system for long-term players.

Account-binding would at least help stop the chaos long enough to see whether additional changes need to happen (and I believe they do).

Like you, I've been around enough games to be getting a seriously bad vibe from Riven Mods. They are an all-too-painful reminder of the worst experiences I've had in "feeling burned" by games before.

I can only hope that others remember also, and that we are able to somehow pull this back from what feels like the edge of disaster.

[Hahsanumat]

9 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Can you get these mods without paying a cent? Can you get these mods without any plat at all? Yes? Then it's not P2W. Are you likely to get them? No, because they're so rare as to be statistical anomalies. Nobody's likely to get them. That's the reason it's not P2W.

I think everyone needs to think about what P2W is and what makes it bad before they start talking about monetization systems in games.

P2W is bad because it creates stratifications between players, giving the majority of the paying side an advantage that the non-paying side (who exists to provide warm bodies to play with/against in F2P monetization schemes) can't ever match.

The idea that a game is not P2W because you have a trillion-to-one chance of earning the item in game is more than a little insidious, and the idea that anyone might win the riven lottery might placate people in the short term, but in the end the player base will undergo the stratification you describe, and people will start to quit.

Show Reply

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Just now, Hahsanumat said:

The idea that a game is not P2W because you have a trillion-to-one chance of earning the item in game is more than a little insidious, and the idea that anyone might win the riven lottery might placate people in the short term, but in the end the player base will undergo the stratification you describe, and people will start to quit.

Show Reply

Where is the stratification going to come from? These mods are so rare that most whales won't be able to get them simply because supply is going to be so low. Balance won't revolve around them because the supply will be so low. These mods also don't provide a huge advantage anywhere except long duration endless missions because we already kill the hek out of enemies with what we have now.

The obvious counterpoint to your argument is that we've had something like this for years. It's called Primed Chamber. You know, that mod that goes for 40k plat on a good day and megabuffs sniper rifles? The mod that there's less than 300 of in the whole game and which will never get more than that? There was no stratification from that. Primed Chamber owners do not rule over the rest of us like feudal lords and we their serfs. Primed Chamber did not become a mandatory mod in the meta. Tonkor critada or Soma murdercrit or Simulor pwnicious won't either for exactly the same reason. Where is this stratification you fear? Why has it not yet materialized with primed chamber?

[StabbyTentacles]

Cpl_Facehugger, you have the answer, you have the truth of the matter; now whether you allow its legitimacy/accuracy to penetrate your desires, is of course, your prerogative.

1 hour ago, Hahsanumat said:

The idea that a game is not P2W because you have a trillion-to-one chance of earning the item in game is more than a little insidious, and the idea that anyone might win the riven lottery might placate people in the short term, but in the end the player base will undergo the stratification you describe, and people will start to quit.

Show Reply

 

[Volinus7]

International Whaling Commission must play WF and study about this latest cutting edge whaling tool called "Riven mod".

[ShortCat]

You are joking right?

1 hour ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

1. I don't particularly mind power creep in context of warframe, where the only thing it actually affects is content that DE has said they don't intend to balance (ie endless missions.) To wit, your tonkor is already strong enough for sorties which means the extra damage you so fear is effectively meaningless.

The only argument you have is" they already are op, so more op won't hurt". People are already asking for a new planet with a starting lvl ~100. Now, implemented tomorow lvl 100 is not enough. Furthermore, with every Riven mod every weapon's threshold rises even further, don't get bored too soon with your new toy because there is nothing to kill.

1 hour ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

2. I don't see how it's tossing balance concepts away when the mods you're screeching about are so rare that they aren't going to be balanced around. What these mods do is let the exceptionally lucky feel powerful, or let the exceptionally wealthy buy them off the exceptionally lucky and thus inject cash into the game. But you can't buy kuva or riven mods from DE, only the player market, so it's not P2W, and the only advantage of these mods - raw power - is meaningless in the content we actually do

Now, there is no need to balance any weapon in the game, EVER. Right now go and ask for a buff to a weapon - counterargument: "Nah, dude, just get a right Riven mod and you are set." New content, events, new enemies what is the benchmark now? A lower weapon? A mid-tier weapon? Top tier? With Riven mods or without? If with, what about poor souls who don't have them? I hope you like new enemies, because you will see a lot more of invulnerable units in the game.

1 hour ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

3. Ah but they have implemented corresponding content. We've always had corresponding content. This lets us go deeper in endless missions. Some guys like that. I don't, but some do. DE could do with making a "start at level 140 and scale up rapidly" node precisely for players who like this instead of making them spend an hour killing low level mooks, but for the vast majority of players, going above level 140 is meaningless except for e-peen.

They could have made such a node years ago, why didn't they? Starting from lvl 500 so only cheese can survive. And it seems you do not understand what corresponding content means: you need meaningfull challange to justify the sole existence of Riven mods. Endless and beyond is not meaningfull. Your dusty "low tier weapons" don't need them, because they already can deal with 98% of the game. Making the whole arsenal op in order to boost valuability just for 2%, while 98% became 100% more boring, is what I call dreadfull game design.

2 hours ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

4. These mods won't ever be mandatory because of their rarity any more than primed chamber is mandatory for sniper mods. The tonkor critada you complain of and hold as the example of "OP"? I'll be hugely surprised if by this time next year there's more than a thousand of them in the game assuming DE makes no changes to the system at all, because that's how statistically difficult getting that is. Serration is mandatory because everyone can easily get one and on top of that it's mandatory because sortie enemy levels are such that you need a certain level of damage output to kill.

2 hours ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Meanwhile, suddenly, all those cars - the bratons, hinds, burstons, harpaks, etc that previously were too slow to drive on the high level highway at all can. They won't do the same amount of damage as the top shelf guns, but they can hold their own and not drag down the team. This is a tremendous upside to the system.

Wow, you yourself said those mods are the reason to use weak weapons again. If Riven mods are the main and only criteria, how should I call them, but not mandatory?

1 hour ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

These mods are so rare that most whales won't be able to get them simply because supply is going to be so low.

2 hours ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

On weak guns, these mods serve the same function that syndicate mods do - they make weaker guns (furis lol) worth using. Suddenly you can bring a braton to a sortie, say "dude, I got this. Riven mod" and actually be successful.

So what now? Are they so rare and not important or the savior of the forgotten? Help me to understand, because you use the same argument as a pro and a con, whenever you feel like it. And don't argue that it is easier to get a mod for unwanted weapon than for a top tier toy. When people will hit mod limit, they will have to get rid of some mods and I don't think most will give up a Soma mod for a Hind mod.

The sad part is, up till now, all youtubers are wet in their panties because of Riven mods. Go ahead and start posting links.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

24 minutes ago, StabbyTentacles said:

Cpl_Facehugger, you have the answer, you have the truth of the matter; now whether you allow its legitimacy/accuracy to penetrate your desires, is of course, your prerogative.

 

What legitimacy or accuracy? I addressed every point he made. P2W is a specific state of being, characterized by whales being able to pay to acquire power at will from the company that non-paying players cannot reasonably attain.

This is not the state of the riven system at all, because all players are equal when it comes to RNG. Whales cannot buy riven mod packs from DE to get around RNG by virtue of numbers. Whales cannot buy kuva from DE in order to get around RNG by throwing rerolls at it.

Whales can buy riven mods from other players. This is it. Every single riven mod placed on the market is there solely because the player who acquired it made the decision that what he can get for it is worth more to him than putting it on his own soma/tonkor/etc/etc. By definition we can't get a P2W ecology going because all riven mods come from people doing sorties, which means supply is limited to people who've been graced with RNG. You can't have the runaway stratification you see in a traditional P2W economic scheme because the win you're trying to pay for isn't commonly available, it's harshly capped by RNG.

Again, we've seen this situation play out in the warframe economy. Primed Chamber.

[polarity]

Primed chamber is a straw-man.  Sniper rifles are not a valid weapon type for the huge majority of horde-mode content.  Tonkor and Simulor are.

As for "all players are equal when it comes to RNG", I have never seen such ignorant bullS#&amp;&#036; posted before, anywhere, ever.  When you have multiple layers of compound RNG, and where the dice may fall covers such a wide range of values, players most certainly do not end up equal.

Edited November 14, 2016 by polarity

[notlamprey]

16 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

The sad part is, up till now, all youtubers are wet in their panties because of Riven mods. Go ahead and start posting links.

Not all, my friend. There is another...

Spoiler

 

I hold out hope that we will be rescued.

[ShortCat]

3 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Not all, my friend. There is another...

  Hide contents

 

I hold out hope that we will be rescued.

Well, it is more about RNG involved in stats, challanges and weapons - their acquisition. I don't argue about acquisition, because as soon as I do, I acknowledge their purpose and existence, which I do not.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

46 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

You are joking right?
The only argument you have is" they already are op, so more op won't hurt". People are already asking for a new planet with a starting lvl ~100. Now, implemented tomorow lvl 100 is not enough. Furthermore, with every Riven mod every weapon's threshold rises even further, don't get bored too soon with your new toy because there is nothing to kill.

Nope, I'm totally serious. A bit overwhelmed by the sheer salt you're dousing me with, but totally serious.

Now, first - Implemented tomorrow a level 100 planet would be plenty enough, because again, these mods you're freaking out about are incredibly rare. The handful of people who actually acquired these mods might not find them enough, but there's millions of active accounts and there sure aren't millions of tonkor critada mods. All the other riven mods for non-meta weapons? They do no more than make the non-meta weapons playable at those levels.

 

Quote

Now, there is no need to balance any weapon in the game, EVER. Right now go and ask for a buff to a weapon - counterargument: "Nah, dude, just get a right Riven mod and you are set." New content, events, new enemies what is the benchmark now? A lower weapon? A mid-tier weapon? Top tier? With Riven mods or without? If with, what about poor souls who don't have them? I hope you like new enemies, because you will see a lot more of invulnerable units in the game.

The benchmark is without perfect riven mods because of how unreliable it is to acquire them, duh. You don't balance around perfect riven mods, that's just daft.

And I've said it before but I actually quite like the kuva guardian gameplay. Let me guess, you hate people with shields in dark souls too, right?

Quote

They could have made such a node years ago, why didn't they? Starting from lvl 500 so only cheese can survive. And it seems you do not understand what corresponding content means: you need meaningfull challange to justify the sole existence of Riven mods. Endless and beyond is not meaningfull.

No, all you need to justify the existence of riven mods is fun. (And from DE's perspective, plat sales.) You don't need "meaningfull challange" to justify a weapon's power, you just need "does this make the game more fun?" I think you're losing something very important when you rant about challenge. Maybe because you've only been here for a year if your profile's anything to go by, but I've seen what this game looks like when it's "challanging." It wasn't pretty. Way back in U7 there was a weekend where enemies on Pluto (then the highest content we had available; prevoid this was) were strong enough to resist all modded weapons we possessed and kill us in a few seconds. You couldn't go five feet without being killed by two crewmen, even in a durability-optimized rhino. It was hot garbage. DE changed it immediately because of how bad it was.

 

Quote

Your dusty "low tier weapons" don't need them, because they already can deal with 98% of the game. Making the whole arsenal op in order to boost valuability just for 2%, while 98% became 100% more boring, is what I call dreadfull game design.

You don't know what you're talking about if you call making the whole arsenal viable at sorties "dreadfull game design."

Let me be clear: My balance point is our current endgame, sorties. Level 140 max. I an unconcerned with level 300 endless missions. The more guns that can be modded to participate in sorties, the better, as that leads to more diversity. The reason people use simulor, tonkor, etc in sorties? It's at least partly because most of the other guns don't have the damage they need to kill swiftly. Riven mods help mitigate this.

Riven mods are endgame mods from an endgame system. They are available solely from the hardest non-endless content we have or trade chat. They are generally mastery locked. To even start getting them you have to polish off the star chart, because TWW is locked behind Sedna relay. These are not intended to be balanced in low level play. They are very clearly intended for sorties and above.

 

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Wow, you yourself said those mods are the reason to use weak weapons again. If Riven mods are the main and only criteria, how should I call them, but not mandatory?

I think you're getting confused. We're discussing the riven mods for the current meta weapons - the soma critado, tonkor critado, etc mods that people are crying salty kubrow tears over. These are not mandatory because the weapons are already fully capable of handling all current content short of endless. This is what I mean by riven mods not being mandatory. Tonkor, Soma, etc don't need these mods to succeed at the highest content we possess currently. We managed without riven mods a week ago. Go into a sortie or a raid and nobody's gonna say "oh you don't have a soma critnado? Get the hell out of our squad," any more than they're gonna say "no primed chamber? GTFO."

Riven mods are, however, necessary for weaker weapons to participate in sortie content, but this is not a bad thing, since it's essentially sidestepping the weapon tiering system that warfarm relies on for a chunk of its progression gameplay and giving players more options. You also don't need a riven mod that's perfect, you just need one that's "good enough" to fight in sorties. To take a starter gun into endgame content should by all rights take something special, but being able to do that is... Well, it's a system I didn't realize how great it would be until I actually had it in my hands. The ability to potentially take any rifle, even the ones I love but know aren't strong enough, and succeed in sorties... That's an intensely liberating feeling.

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So what now? Are they so rare and not important or the savior of the forgotten? Help me to understand, because you use the same argument as a pro and a con, whenever you feel like it. And don't argue that it is easier to get a mod for unwanted weapon than for a top tier toy. When people will hit mod limit, they will have to get rid of some mods and I don't think most will give up a Soma mod for a Hind mod.

Okay, I'll help you understand:

The mods that everyone are complaining about are ultra rare. I am referring to the Soma +crit/+damage/+multishot mods, the tonkor +crit/+damage/+multishot mods, the simulor mods with that, those kinds of mods. The mods that everyone is frantically posting images of and screeching about how this is "breaking the game" because these things exist. Right now they're going for thousands of plat on trade chat because of their rarity and demand, and I don't expect them to go down much. These are the ultra rare mods I'm referring to. These will never be mandatory mods because the supply of them is so low and slow to increase. People hold on to their soma mods and reroll them instead of selling them on trade chat immediately like we see with non-meta weapon mods.

The mods that make non-meta weapons viable, meanwhile, are going for 50-150ish plat, because while supply is the same, demand is much lower as well. Not as many people want a gorgon mod as they do a soma mod. These mods also have a wider range of "acceptable" stats as well, which means you're more likely to get a mod that makes a lesser used weapon viable than you are to get the perfect soma critnado. With a soma mod, you're encouraged to keep rerolling to get the perfect holy grail in hopes of making bank off trade chat. With a braton mod, all you really need is for it to provide enough positive stats to make it viable in sorties. Unlike soma where you want that crit crit damage/multishot or some combination thereof, with Braton you have viability with a much wider range of stat combinations, so the bar to clear is lower. (Soma is already inherently viable in sorties, we're talking about taking non sortie-viable weapons and bringing them to sorties here.)

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The sad part is, up till now, all youtubers are wet in their panties because of Riven mods. Go ahead and start posting links.

Er, start posting links to what?

Edited November 14, 2016 by Cpl_Facehugger

[HARKDOG]

6 hours ago, GhostlightX said:

Still not seeing how deciding to put a broken OP mod onto a gun makes the build personal.

In terms of the random combinations u get, not all the mods and combinations will be the same

[HARKDOG]

5 hours ago, Sahansral said:

The game doesn't use mods for nothing. Even before TWW, you could make your personal build. Nothing stopped you from using Ammo drum, Eagle Eye,  Hush and Stabilizer. But people rather used Serration, Split chamber, Point Strike and Vital Sense. There are reasons for this! Why should riven mods change people's mind? They will still look for the most damaging combination of stats. Damage >> ALL 

well there's some mods that are mandatory on some builds, after that the rest are personal combinations. What I mwean with more personal now is, The combinations and options are different, you have more variety of choosing how you want to change your current build, how u want to forma, etc.
 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

59 minutes ago, polarity said:

Primed chamber is a straw-man.  Sniper rifles are not a valid weapon type for the huge majority of horde-mode content.  Tonkor and Simulor are.
 

That's not a strawman. Strawman is attacking an exaggerated version of the opponent's argument instead of the argument they're actually making. The people in this thread and others are ranting about tonkor, soma, simulor, dread, cernos, etc with these mods. You could argue it's a flawed comparison, but I don't think it is. I'm seeing a ton of complaints about Soma even though it's less suited for horde content compared to tonkor, and the supply argument has yet to be adequately countered.

As for "all players are equal when it comes to RNG", I have never seen such ignorant bullS#&amp;&#036; posted before, anywhere, ever.  When you have multiple layers of compound RNG, and where the dice may fall covers such a wide range of values, players most certainly do not end up equal.

Do you deny that every player has an equal chance of prying these mods from RNG's grip assuming they both farm the same amount? No? Then all players are equal when it comes to RNG. No one player has a better chance of getting these mods than any other, assuming they both put the same amount of time in. The exception is, of course, whales, who choose to fill DE's pockets in order to sidestep that grind by buying these mods off of the lucky few who wrestled them from RNG. 

[ShortCat]

13 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Let me be clear: My balance point is our current endgame, sorties. Level 140 max

Last time I checked DE didn't balance around lvl 140, it was around lvl 40, said some time ago in a devstream. Furthermore, you intend to balance around the part of the game, that only a smaller part of playerbase is actively playing? You constantly talk about Sorties, as if they are the only missions people do. What about normal missions, where you do all the farming and spend most of your time?

1 hour ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

You don't know what you're talking about if you call making the whole arsenal viable at sorties "dreadfull game design."

The game is not only Sortie missions! Sorties are the endgoal in the game atm. Of course is it dreadfull if you beat the endboss with tutorial gear. It does not matter what weapon on steroids you are using, it will affect gaming experience of everyone involved. You are basicly running with S.Simulor on Earth. This also reflects all your blabbering about balance. You neglect effects on 98% of the game and call it a day.

9 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

I think you're getting confused. We're discussing the riven mods for the current meta weapons

No, you are confused. I never talked about specific weapons with their Riven mods, I was talking in general. Dodging arguments aren't we? No matter what weapon, if you have decent Riven mod, it becomes mandatory. You deny this word, yet paraphrase the meaning of it:

25 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

Riven mods are, however, necessary for weaker weapons...

 

• progressing power creep 10 steps at once -> you agree on it but don't mind it
• tossing balance concepts away -> your concept of balance is destructive and not in line with anything up to date
• implementing mechanics/power levels without actual corresponding content in the game (MK-1 example) -> you can have it
• new mandatory mods -> you confirmed it

[(PSN)VexaKM]

Before you all jump on me for being on PS4, this is an alt.

The whole issue of these riven mods is the fact that scammers are the ones making them unbearable. while that tonkor one is a monster, these mods were just a fun addition to the game.

The layers of RNG are annoying, but it is only for the players who want to put in the time to take a shot in the dark.

As for the people who want to be wallet warriors, then that is their decision.

This system is targeted for endgame players: Difficult challenges, insane reward possibilities and it is something to go after if you WANT to, so it is not fair for the people who got them without buying, to have people that hate them who complain about them so hard that they get removed completely.

If YOU don't want to put the effort and a nuke of luck in (which is perfectly okay) then you go and do that.

But don't punish the whole player base because of it.

What DE should do to tweak it is to:

1) Show unveiled mods as what they are and allow players to see the stats of them (assuming that NOBODY will memorize those prefixes and suffixes)

2) let the amount of kuva reset after a trade of the mod

3) Allow the amount of rivens to scale with mastery rank 2 per mastery rank 

4) Allow the player to reset/ reroll the challenge for 1/4 of the kuva cost

 

[CorrinAvatan]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)codoo17 said:

Before you all jump on me for being on PS4, this is an alt.

The whole issue of these riven mods is the fact that scammers are the ones making them unbearable. while that tonkor one is a monster, these mods were just a fun addition to the game.

The layers of RNG are annoying, but it is only for the players who want to put in the time to take a shot in the dark.

As for the people who want to be wallet warriors, then that is their decision.

This system is targeted for endgame players: Difficult challenges, insane reward possibilities and it is something to go after if you WANT to, so it is not fair for the people who got them without buying, to have people that hate them who complain about them so hard that they get removed completely.

If YOU don't want to put the effort and a nuke of luck in (which is perfectly okay) then you go and do that.

But don't punish the whole player base because of it.

What DE should do to tweak it is to:

1) Show unveiled mods as what they are and allow players to see the stats of them (assuming that NOBODY will memorize those prefixes and suffixes)

2) let the amount of kuva reset after a trade of the mod

3) Allow the amount of rivens to scale with mastery rank 2 per mastery rank 

4) Allow the player to reset/ reroll the challenge for 1/4 of the kuva cost

 

I'm okay with most of your suggestions, though the "trade allows reset of kuva for rerolls" would be abused.  I play with my wife, she'd have no problem trading me a spare vitality, keeping it for a day, then giving it back to me.

I'd personally re-roll the challenge at 1/2 kuva cost, but doesn't increase, but that's just me

I really don't like the prefix/suffix

[CorrinAvatan]

6 hours ago, haloamted said:

With that people could choose themselves what weapons to make good or better. You mention people dusting off bratons and burstons, they only do that because they got a rift mod for it. Who cares if they actually hate the weapon but what the hell are they going to do, have a really good rift mod in the bank because they hate the weapon it's for? No, they'll use that weapon because they feel like they have to. 

The randomness is disgusting, as for me not needing to have them, you realise this is warframe, the very game is about collecting. For the prices, please try and say 10k platinum for a top tier soma rift mod is reasonable and ok. 

I've never used a weapon because I "have" to, even if it was statistically better.

I have a Tonkor that can out-perform every other weapon I have, even with a Sybaris with +129 Slash and +168 damage, on a crit-fisher build.

I currently prefer Zarr, Boar Prime, and Paris.  Why?  Because they're fun.  

If you're playing the game with weapons you hate and warframes you hate, why are you playing the game?

If you don't like using your Burston, but have a great mod for it, there are plenty of people who LIKE the Burston, and would trade you THEIR mod, for a weapon that YOU probably like.

I don't think any mod is worth 10k.  However some people do, and it is actually GREAT that people who have 10k in plat are using it to buy from other players, who then use it to buy things that THEY want.  There are quite a few whales in Warframe that just have more plat than they know what to do with, but weren't really using it, where there are other players struggling to get it.  having that amount of plat move around helps, because that means more people will eventually have more plat as people buy things from other people.

This is actually really great for the in-game economy of warframe, outside of the fact that Riven mod trading needs it's own trading tab, to be honest.

Edited November 15, 2016 by CorrinAvatan

[StabbyTentacles]

3 hours ago, notlamprey said:

Not all, my friend. There is another...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I hold out hope that we will be rescued.