Universal Vacuum: The current loot system is outdated

[Jackviator]

Looking forward to the comments on this one. *sigh*

TL;DR: (Wall of text incoming, so for those on a tight schedule, my main points): Warframe's loot system used to work in the beta because it was slower and didn't use so much 3D space, but no longer holds up in a game with so much 3D space and such a fast pace, and a truly UNIVERSAL vacuum would solve that problem.

Anyhow, on with the show:

DE, community. Let's sit down and talk about the current loot system, "universal" vacuum, and how I believe they could both be improved, now that the Riven outrage has subsided a tad.

So... I'll be blunt. The current loot system as it exists is an artifact. It's outdated. Why? I'll tell you why: The player movement/parkour system. The loot system we have now (getting within about a foot of an object to pick it up) worked fine in WF's beta period. We could jump, sure. We could occasionally clamber onto a box or two, and people certainly abused the player-invented mechanic of Coptering to get around a bit faster, but for the most part we were stuck to the ground. The game was slower-paced, we could passively pick up anything that dropped on the ground (because we didn't have a choice in being there at the time), and so it worked fine. It did the job it was meant to do, it matched the mechanics of the game it was in.

But then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked Parkour 2.0 dropped. With parkour 2.0 in the mix, players have so much more freedom of movement. We have much, MUCH more 3D space to work with. We can cross chasms in a single bound if we effectively chain together maneuvers, we can effectively fly across the battlefield. And that right there is the problem; we're not on the ground anymore, but the loot is.

This game simultaneously encourages you to take advantage of your Warframe's movement skills to their full extent, flying over the heads of enemies and racing through tilesets, but it also wants you to remain on the ground in case you miss any loot. The movement and loot systems exist in a state of dissonance. In short, the looting system wasn't updated to fit the new movement system, and it painfully shows. In this game, I find myself having to go back to rooms I have cleared, having to search in far corners for any loot I may not have picked up, or (as I have said in previous posts) having to run around in boring circles on the ground, collecting Credits, Salvage, Ammo Drums and the occasional bit of Endo.

In most MMORPGs, this type of thing is fine. In those games, there is much less 3D space to work with and there is often a pause at the end of combat where you can peacefully collect loot without fear of being attacked. In this way, the devs can get away with similar looting mechanics as the loot system in this game, because it matches the gameplay mechanics of each respective game. That's the problem though; the looting system no longer matches the game. It used to work like that, but it just doesn't cut it anymore. Warframe is too fast-paced, too 3D oriented, and there isn't a break at the end of combat to collect items unless you've just cleared an Exterminate mission.

So again, I'll be blunt. There is a reason that people don't often play with Kavats and Kubrows unless they're at the endgame where resource-hunting isn't really a priority anymore: Vacuum.

Vacuum fixes the 3D space problem and fast-paced gameplay problem. Vacuum extends the range and speed at which you can collect items, and that is something sorely needed with the new movement system and nature of the game. It allows you to use the movement system to its full extent, without having to throttle the pacing of the gameplay every 30 seconds to pick up what remains on the floor while having to cautiously watch the doorways for more enemy units.

It's easy to explain why about 80% of people used to solely use Carrier. It was the QOL improvement that Vacuum offered, as it just made for a better, more mechanically-tight game. It wasn't laziness; it was people reaching for what was the greatest improvement to the gameplay, as it allowed them to focus on what the truly fun aspects of the game were without fear of missing things they needed to rank up that mod they've been meaning to, or build that new weapon they've had their eye on.

So, my proposition; I think it's high time the looting system is updated to match the rest of the game. That is to say, I think the devs should give every Warframe the universal passive ability to utilize the 12m of vacuum that Vacuum currently offers. Not Sentinels, not even all Companions, but the frames themselves, without having to use a mod. It just makes sense and would make for a better game, and not punish you with something else to worry about if you decide to bring along a pet instead of a sentinel.

Sure, we'd have to iron out a few things, like what Mag's passive and the Chesa Kubrow's function would have to be, and how to fix people accidentally wasting things like Energy Orbs or Life Support, but those are topics for another thread later on.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Jackviator

[Nero9937]

This.

[Rounpositron]

If all warframes have vacuum, what should Mag's passive be?

[Jackviator]

Just now, Rounpositron said:

If all warframes have vacuum, what should Mag's passive be?

See the bottom of the post.

I have a couple of ideas (for example, maybe her shields could recharge 25% faster, as do the shields of every ally within the 50m affinity radius, supporting her team and combatting her general squishiness) but I don't want the post/thread to get sidetracked.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

3 minutes ago, Rounpositron said:

If all warframes have vacuum, what should Mag's passive be?

Something that's actually useful ?

Joking asides though, I'm all for it... Heck, personally I think the game could even use some "universal crate destruction" to go along with "universal Vacuum"... Like let's say all containers within 6 meters get destroyed the the warframe's energies... Would be less tedious than slowly aiming at every single crate...

Again, people use AOE weapons for that purpoose, but that restricts weapon usage somewhat. I've been running mostly with sonicor lately precisely because I can aim in the general direction and everything blows into bits,

[Rounpositron]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Something that's actually useful ?

Joking asides though, I'm all for it... Heck, personally I think the game could even use some "universal crate destruction" to go along with "universal Vacuum"... Like let's say all containers within 6 meters get destroyed the the warframe's energies... Would be less tedious than slowly aiming at every single crate...

Again, people use AOE weapons for that purpoose, but that restricts weapon usage somewhat. I've been running mostly with sonicor lately precisely because I can aim in the general direction and everything blows into bits,

I'm more of a runningmelee man.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Rounpositron
lol

[Borg1611]

Yes please. I don't know why they went the all sentinel route after all this time with so much feedback on the issue (and even had the audacity to attempt to nerf the radius in the process when, if anything, they should have increased it). I don't know why they're seemingly afraid of giving us universal vacuum.

I really don't think things like orbs/life support would be a significant issue at all. They could just make them un-vacuumable like reactant if they wanted. 

It would especially be nice on Titania during her 4 since she can't even keep her sentinel out for vacuum (even with universal vacuum she would still need a lot of attention in numerous other areas of course...). 

[Jackviator]

8 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I really don't think things like orbs/life support would be a significant issue at all. They could just make them un-vacuumable like reactant if they wanted. 

Oddly enough, it's actually one of the main arguments I keep hearing against a universal vacuum; comes up in almost every thread I see on the issue, so I figured I'd at least address it as a minor problem that needs to be fixed.

[xXDeadsinxX]

I agree with OP.

[Bobtm]

There's a bit of a glaring hole in the logic at the core of your point here however;  We're going slower now with Parkour 2.0 than we were moving across tilesets in Parkour 1.0.

Beyond this, while we do play in a fully three-dimensional playspace and have many movement options, the loot itself has a "home" of sorts.  All loot (barring lag shenanigans) will be deposited upon the ground, ie. a predictable flat and visisble plane.  We don't need to worry about loot that's maybe 4m, 8m, 3m above the ground, or on the ceiling, it's on the ground where the enemies are.  If a player just passively pays attention to combat (which means having the ground visible on their screen) and knows to just move towards drops they need whilst engaging in combat/movement then there is no issue at all.

Movement happens all over the place, but the loot isn't all over the place, which is why a universal always-on vacuum is just not needed.  The issue rather is that too many players have convinced themselves that it is needed.  I'm not saying vacuum is bad, nor am I saying that folks who use it are bad, however this notion that the game is unplayable without vacuum is silly at its best.

In Archwing for example, loot truly does exist in a fully 3D space.  Low and behold guess what, we've got universal vacuum in Archwing.

The need to pay attention in order to obtain loot is something that forces a player to give a small iota of pause in the case that they try running one of the super-heavy AoE based setups.  Its a minor hiccup that draws a tiny bit of ease-of-use from a setup which is distilled into pure efficiency.  If you're not using an AoE weapon, then you're always going to be looking at the enemies you kill as are allies looking at those they kill.  Should a good thing (mod, rare resource, endo) drop, that's where the squad waypoint system comes into play.  Allowing players to give one another a heads up of "here's a thing".  Fun point, you can even mark non-rare standard resources if you do so before picking the resource pickup up.

At the end, if nothing else, leave an off switch in the options should something like this be unnecessarily implemented.  Universal vacuum is totally unnecessary.  If you want vacuum use it, if you want to use a Kavat/Kubrow use one of them instead.

[Syvarin]

Warframe is a resource collecting game. Particularly for new players, any resource missed is a loss of progression.  Even in the old days of Parkour 1.0, resource collection was a chore. When I started playing all my friends recommended building a Carrier as soon as possible, but I decided to be different and build a Dethcube instead. Once I did get around to building a Carrier, I realized just how much of a difference it made.  Even now, when I'm MR 22, I don't use Kubrows or Kavats because they can't use Vacuum.

I am very thankful that Vacuum can now be used on any sentinel, but that change only made me move to using Helios instead of Carrier.  Now, perhaps the lack of Vacuum on pets is intended to be balancing in some way, but that could remain by giving Warframes a passive loot draw which can then be augmented by mods. Vacuum on your sentinel would give you more range, and a similar Exilus mod for Warframes could also add to it. Players who do neither and use a pet would still have a pickup range, though.

Also, there's seriously no reason to force players to manually pick up Ayatan Stars. They are not worth so much endo that players should have to stop their mission to run to a spot and pick them up. There's also no reason they should show up on the minimap regardless of distance, but I digress.

A better pickup range for Warframes would make the game better with no real downside.

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, Syvarin said:

I am very thankful that Vacuum can now be used on any sentinel, but that change only made me move to using Helios instead of Carrier.

Yup. I want to be able to use my dogs and cats in missions so bad, but the QOL from Vacuum/not missing 50-75% of the pickups in any given mission is just too good to pass up. 

That really shouldn't be the case, and is one of the things a universal change like this would fix.

As for balance, well... I'm honestly not entirely sure what is unbalanced by being able to pick up Rubedo from a distance without having to run directly over it. Vacuum certainly isn't OP, as it's purely a QOL/mechanics thing, not a combat-oriented one.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Jackviator

[Borg1611]

If they're completely against having universal vacuum and just are never going to give in on that issue, a compromise could be to at least give us two pet slots. Give us one for sentinels and one for animals so we can have one of each. Universal vacuum seems like the easiest solution though. 

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

Give us one for sentinels and one for animals so we can have one of each. Universal vacuum seems like the easiest solution though. 

Now there's something I hadn't really thought of... interesting idea. I like it.

Still, you said it yourself. While I wouldn't mind that sentinel+companion thing being implemented, having vacuum simply be actually universal would be a lot easier to add in.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jackviator

[RedDirtTrooper]

9 hours ago, Bobtm said:

There's a bit of a glaring hole in the logic at the core of your point here however;  We're going slower now with Parkour 2.0 than we were moving across tilesets in Parkour 1.0.

Beyond this, while we do play in a fully three-dimensional playspace and have many movement options, the loot itself has a "home" of sorts.  All loot (barring lag shenanigans) will be deposited upon the ground, ie. a predictable flat and visisble plane.  We don't need to worry about loot that's maybe 4m, 8m, 3m above the ground, or on the ceiling, it's on the ground where the enemies are.  If a player just passively pays attention to combat (which means having the ground visible on their screen) and knows to just move towards drops they need whilst engaging in combat/movement then there is no issue at all.

Movement happens all over the place, but the loot isn't all over the place, which is why a universal always-on vacuum is just not needed.  The issue rather is that too many players have convinced themselves that it is needed.  I'm not saying vacuum is bad, nor am I saying that folks who use it are bad, however this notion that the game is unplayable without vacuum is silly at its best.

In Archwing for example, loot truly does exist in a fully 3D space.  Low and behold guess what, we've got universal vacuum in Archwing.

The need to pay attention in order to obtain loot is something that forces a player to give a small iota of pause in the case that they try running one of the super-heavy AoE based setups.  Its a minor hiccup that draws a tiny bit of ease-of-use from a setup which is distilled into pure efficiency.  If you're not using an AoE weapon, then you're always going to be looking at the enemies you kill as are allies looking at those they kill.  Should a good thing (mod, rare resource, endo) drop, that's where the squad waypoint system comes into play.  Allowing players to give one another a heads up of "here's a thing".  Fun point, you can even mark non-rare standard resources if you do so before picking the resource pickup up.

At the end, if nothing else, leave an off switch in the options should something like this be unnecessarily implemented.  Universal vacuum is totally unnecessary.  If you want vacuum use it, if you want to use a Kavat/Kubrow use one of them instead.

Paying attention does nothing for all the loot that routinely falls in to inaccessible geometry or even through the map. Vacuum does. So you are in fact, incorrect, and the issue does exist. The fact is, if you pathed an identical run of a mission with identical drops that you ran, picking up things manually, and applied that exact path to a second play through with a 12m vacuum enabled, even assuming you had zero human error and hit a 100% efficiency for picking up all the drops in a room as you moved through it, the play through with the vacuum would have collected more than you at the end of the mission. There is zero doubt in my mind that this is the case.

No one has said the game is unplayable without vacuum. The game feels so much less fun without vacuum that I would argue it's a night and day experience. It would be playable without it, but I can't see any reason I would want to. Maybe had I never experienced how much more fun I have as a result of vacuum this wouldn't be the case. But we have, and to some of us the difference is huge. That's not a minority opinion either. The 80% carrier usage statistics are all the proof anyone needs to see what the general opinion is, but if you would like further proof just look at the community response to the vacuum within.

Archwing's ludicrously small vacuum in the enormous areas is one of the common complaints I see from other players. If you made a list of reasons so many people think "archwing sucks" this would be right there in the top ten.

The tiny bit of ease-of-use translates in to massive drop in enjoyment for myself and many others. The fact that it does not for you in no way offsets the opinions of that previously mentioned 80% of the player base. 

Finally, if you fall in to the very large group for whom vacuum makes a large difference, and you also like Kubrow or Kavats, I guess you're just out of luck? I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen players say they wish they could use a companion instead of carrier/a sentinel, but that the game just isn't as much fun without vacuum. That said, I see zero reason not to put an off switch for such a widely desired feature in the options, even if I think it's completely unnecessary for anyone but a tiny minority.

 

[Misgenesis]

The current system isnt outdated. Players are just greedy and want everything efficiently, with as little effort as possible.

Its perfectly fine to miss some loot. You dont even have to miss anything if you put aside the black and white thinking of either having your face on the ground or killing enemies. You can, surprise, do both. Besides, why do you think we have a bunch of side rooms and such in the game? Its to encourage the player to stop and explore.

And i dont think fast movement alone permits the removing of a system thats there to partly be a limiting factor (ammo/energy/health). If the maps were bigger then i would somewhat agree, but not to a 12 meter passive.

Instead DE should go down 6 meter mod route they had planned. It wouldnt completely negate the purpose of the loot system while making players sacrifice 1-3 mod slots.

[brainjelly2g0]

The question I don't see anyone asking is Why have a loot system at all? In some games, after killing enemies everyone is simply awarded the loot, without need to pick it up. Hell, even in Warframe, with the

Spoiler

Kuva siphons, you're awarded with the Kuva immediately on destroying them.

Why not implement such a system into Warframe? It would ease performance somewhat, and streamline the game. Health and Energy orbs, ammo, and reactant could still remain the way they are, but all the loot and credits could just immediately be given to every member of the party. It might be lazy, but a universal vacuum would accomplish the same thing in a more roundabout way.