Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[DoppelShifter]

3 minutes ago, Stoner74 said:

Well i mean, DE could come up with Alad V made Valkyr prime to fix the lore issue. But... that's the easy fix, imo. 

Also this would break the lore in many more spots:

- Weren't Primes supposed to be the first of their kinds, from during the Orokin War?
- Alad V doesn't have access to that kind of expertise of Old Orokin technology (otherwise Zanuka would be far more deadly and require far less "mangling current Warframes")
- Other factions can create complete Warframes instead of merely twisting them? (so far, only Alad V experimented with a Warframe, and failed)
- Other factions can use Orokin Technology in a stable and complex form? (so far, only Vor managed to do that, for his Seer pistol, and in a very limited degree).

So... that would be one of the worst of the fixes, ripping an enormous hole in the lore to try to fix a smaller one.

[Yrveth]

12 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

For that we have little information to go for. Remember: some warframes were unstable and prone to rage even in their prototype forms (check the Codex entry for Rhino Prime), so a Warframe that's based on channeling rage through controlled powers isn't a far concept.

Nope, for Valkyr it was specifically mentioned that the experiments performed on her left her like that. The experiments in the Zanuka lab, not some other experiments in some other lab performed by some Orokin people.

If she was like that to begin with, which is apparently what the deal is, then her old lore is destroyed.

This also counts for any scenario where post-Ballas trailer we learn that it was a figure of speech, a red herring, a mistake on the part of Lotus or anything else of the sort, including a mutation in the line of "Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her Operator scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing."

18 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

Prime was inspired by vanilla

So far confirmed to be the case only in the real world, though. Lore-wise, you have to ask yourself: could Gersemi be a simplified version of Valkyr Prime? As long as you can see similarity between Gersemi and Valkyr, then you should be able to accept that. Then they only have to justify why Alad's work ended up reshaping Gersemi into a likeness of her original. Was it deliberate? Was it an awfully weird coincidence? It's up for grabs. But as I said before, that's only half of the problem.

[DoppelShifter]

1 minute ago, Belgard said:

So far confirmed to be the case only in the real world, though. Lore-wise, you have to ask yourself: could Gersemi be a simplified version of Valkyr Prime? As long as you can see similarity between Gersemi and Valkyr, then you should be able to accept that. Then they only have to justify why Alad's work ended up reshaping Gersemi into a likeness of her original. Was it deliberate? Was it an awfully weird coincidence? It's up for grabs. But as I said before, that's only half of the problem.

Check what I posted a little while ago about this:

(TL;DR: I do mention that this order is only IRL. The in-universe order is different, and that's the source of the lore inconsistency. And Gersemi was not mentioned to have inspired Valkyr Prime, as they deliberately opted to use Valkyr Prime as inspiration -- as mentioned in Devstream 83).

[Domesticon]

I've heard some interesting suggestions to have history repeat itself in a sense. Have Gersemi Prime as her own thing, different powers and whatnot, and then have the Orokin twist her into Valkyr Prime. Going forward then you have Alad V seeing references to this through possible research into the Orokin, he tries to do it himself with the standard Gersemi which then makes standard Valkyr. Honestly considering the hole that DE got themselves into with all this, that's probably the best option they have, and then we get some kind of view at Gersemi before becoming Valkyr. Also makes an interesting new frame I think, one that can only be gotten through either the Void, or the Relics. I'd lean towards Void because it seriously needs some love, not much reason to go there right now.

[DoppelShifter]

27 minutes ago, Domesticon said:

I've heard some interesting suggestions to have history repeat itself in a sense. Have Gersemi Prime as her own thing, different powers and whatnot, and then have the Orokin twist her into Valkyr Prime. Going forward then you have Alad V seeing references to this through possible research into the Orokin, he tries to do it himself with the standard Gersemi which then makes standard Valkyr. Honestly considering the hole that DE got themselves into with all this, that's probably the best option they have, and then we get some kind of view at Gersemi before becoming Valkyr. Also makes an interesting new frame I think, one that can only be gotten through either the Void, or the Relics. I'd lean towards Void because it seriously needs some love, not much reason to go there right now.

Solutions that involve making whole new Warframes are some of the messiest and hardest to execute.

A new full body model is hard enough (that's why when we suggested looong ago that the Gersemi Prime skin should be reconsidered, we mentioned it should be put the market for plat, since modeling, texturing and animating a whole new skin is hard and costs extra man-hours from the devs).

But a whole new Warframe? With powers, abilities, stats and game feel to be balanced through all the different game modes? You gotta be kidding.

Might as well follow another suggestion that popped up and just ask DE to make the future Valkyr Umbra visually inspired in Gersemi, and fix the lore inconsistencies via Codex and via the Lore Trailer.

Edited November 25, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[Mak_Gohae]

4 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

since the Dark Sector skins were retconned

what? when?

[Yrveth]

Yes I read that post.

Just now, DoppelShifter said:

And Gersemi was not mentioned to have inspired Valkyr Prime

What's that got to do with anything? For lore consistency it would only matter that Gersemi is a plausible cheaper mass produced version of the Orokin Valkyr warframe.

We got two almost identical looking Valkyr warframes. One of them inspired the Gersemi skin IRL, the other one we can say inspired the Gersemi warframe in the fictional world of Warframe-the-game. Of course you know this is not true, but it's not much different than pretending that regular frames are simplified versions of primes.

What I'm trying to say is that Valkyr Prime's problem is not simply that "she doesn't look like Gersemi" or that "she wasn't inspired by Gersemi". The problem is that, with the same looks and name and abilities, there is no "original Valkyr" that was in any way "forged" by Alad, not even if the next prime access is Gersemi Prime who is a healer frame.

The equivalent of that would be if they said "well Kuria was actually never about the Grineer queens" or "Crewman Synthesis is not about the Sentients" in a couple of years when that old lore becomes inconvenient.

51 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

just ask DE to make the future Valkyr Umbra visually inspired in Gersemi

Let's hold back on suggestions based around yet unreleased systems we know virtually nothing about.

[DoppelShifter]

2 minutes ago, Belgard said:

What's that got to do with anything? For lore consistency it would only matter that Gersemi is a plausible cheaper mass produced version of the Orokin Valkyr warframe.

Well, for lore consistency, if Gersemi was already confirmed to be the original form of the Valkyr tortured by Alad V (the "vanilla" Valkyr), then that means that Gersemi would be a better reference for Valkyr Prime, instead of Vanilla (because of the implications that basically point to "ignore Gersemi" in the Valkyr timeline).

I'll mention again: DE said explicitly that they used Vanilla as an inspiration to Valkyr Prime. If you look at the model, you'll see parts and features that point to stuff added by Alad V's experiments. That makes absolutely no sense, in a chronological aspect. Even with the wild theories suggesting that Alad V was trying to recreate Valkyr Prime, the Codex entry confirms that she was a failed subject of the Zanuka project.
 

7 minutes ago, Belgard said:

We got two almost identical looking Valkyr warframes. One of them inspired the Gersemi skin IRL, the other one we can say inspired the Gersemi warframe in the fictional world of Warframe-the-game. Of course you know this is not true, but it's not much different than pretending that regular frames are simplified versions of primes.

....But that's exactly what the current lore points to: the "non-Prime" warframes being cheaper and simplified versions of the Orokin Era warframes, just like the weapons are mentioned to be in some Codex entries.

And again, this doesn't explain why Valkyr Prime has features analogous to some that, in the Vanilla Valkyr, are cause by the experiments, and not innate characteristics of her (such as the conduits in the legs, the missing armor plates, the shredded armor in her spine, the lack of a tail despite the sockets being there, etc).

 

10 minutes ago, Belgard said:

What I'm trying to say is that Valkyr Prime's problem is not simply that "she doesn't look like Gersemi" or that "she wasn't inspired by Gersemi". The problem is that, with the same looks and name and abilities, there is no "original Valkyr" that was in any way "forged" by Alad, not even if the next prime access is Gersemi Prime who is a healer frame.

Uh... But that's the thing. Gersemi's launch basically confirmed that Valkyr was a pre-existing warframe that Alad V captured and experimented on, and not a "creation made by Alad V".
And while her motif points to "being enraged because of the experiments", her current flavor text for her ribbons Valkyr Prime's Codex entry seem to suggest that Valkyr Prime was kind of a "honor-bound fighter", which is another kind of channeled rage. Both can generate the same powers, but with different reasons behind it. Functionally, though, they're the same, so that doesn't break gameplay or lore. That serves to plug that "Oh, but how the Original Valkyr can have the same powers" kind of thing.

...That still doesn't explain why she has the same modifications, missing armor, etc.
 

16 minutes ago, Belgard said:

Let's hold back on suggestions based around yet unreleased systems we know virtually nothing about.

Well, as far as wild suggestions go, this is one of the few that doesn't suggest the creation of anything "new". Just fine-tailoring of something that, from what the devs said so far, will eventually come.

Considering we had suggestions ranging from "add a tail attachment" to "make a Gersemi prime skin" (this one actually considered by DE) to "let's make a whole new Warframe", vouching for Umbra doesn't seem like a bad shot, considering the circumstances.

[SpinnningSideKick]

Bottom line, the lore only makes sense if the claims of the Zanuka project were entirely false, and made absolutely no change to Valkyr at all because they failed entirely then lied about it to give themselves some bragging rights they didnt earn. 

Its a cheaper and easier to do that what they really should have done, which is made Valkyr Prime with at least one different power/ ability and made it so you could use those changes on Gersemi. Which is what I was kind of expecting, but understand they didnt because a warframe is a lot of time and effort to make for us.

But look at the bright side, they released Valkyr as a hotfix, maybe they will change her abilities with one later. Probably just edit some lines of text in the codex though, probably only take a minute and it would fix the lore holes. 

[DoppelShifter]

9 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

Bottom line, the lore only makes sense if the claims of the Zanuka project were entirely false, and made absolutely no change to Valkyr at all because they failed entirely then lied about it to give themselves some bragging rights they didnt earn. 

Its a cheaper and easier to do that what they really should have done, which is made Valkyr Prime with at least one different power/ ability and made it so you could use those changes on Gersemi. Which is what I was kind of expecting, but understand they didnt because a warframe is a lot of time and effort to make for us.

But look at the bright side, they released Valkyr as a hotfix, maybe they will change her abilities with one later. Probably just edit some lines of text in the codex though, probably only take a minute and it would fix the lore holes. 

...Why do some people think that "making a new warframe with new abilities" is an easy thing? Worse, an "easier solution" than making skins, or adding lore text and such.

Making a whole new warframe is hard (concept, modeling, animation, game balance, interaction with maps, interaction with game modes, interaction with other warframes, balance in PvP, balance in PvE, interaction with current weaponry...). Like... it's so complicated that I just can't understand how people suggest in offhand comments as if it was as easy as changing a few lines of code.

Also making a similar warframe with slightly different abilities goes against the very essence of having different warframes in the first place. That would be one of the worst possible ways of fixing this lore debacle, yet somehow I see it pop as a suggestion now and then.

Also the claims of the Zanuka Project were simple: Codex mentions Valkyr as a failed subject. It doesn't explicitly say that her powers come from the experiments. Just her appearance and her restrains (gauntlets and bonds). This lore doesn't have to change at all; otherwise Gersemi would have been a lore-breaking point years ago, for suggesting that her original form had the same powers.

The problem is solely on Valkyr Prime having clear inspirations on the Vanilla Valkyr, including characteristics that originated from the experiments. That makes no sense in lore, and that wasn't justified until now.

And what's this "released Valkyr as a hotfix" thing? That phrase makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited November 26, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[SpinnningSideKick]

Doppelshift.................does not know how to read. 

 

Please take a minute to get someone to help you out. Reread the part where I said "a warframe is a whole lot of time and effort to make for us"

What part of a whole lot of time and effort, sounds easy to you? Not a rhetorical question. Please take the time to answer that if you bother to reply at all. 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by SpinnningSideKick

[DoppelShifter]

Just now, SpinnningSideKick said:

Doppelshift.................does not know how to read. 

 

13 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

Its a cheaper and easier to do that what they really should have done, which is made Valkyr Prime with at least one different power/ ability and made it so you could use those changes on Gersemi. Which is what I was kind of expecting, but understand they didnt because a warframe is a lot of time and effort to make for us.

In the way you put it, I had to re-read everything to get a glimpse of what you wrote. And I still don't get what you're trying to say.
 

15 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

But look at the bright side, they released Valkyr as a hotfix, maybe they will change her abilities with one later. Probably just edit some lines of text in the codex though, probably only take a minute and it would fix the lore holes. 

And this still doesn't make any sense.

Express your ideas more clearly, instead of saying other people "don't know how to read".

[SpinnningSideKick]

13 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

Also making a similar warframe with slightly different abilities goes against the very essence of having different warframes in the first place. That would be one of the worst possible ways of fixing this lore debacle, yet somehow I see it pop now and then.

Kinda like Prime frames? 

Slight difference..... check. 

 

[DoppelShifter]

26 minutes ago, SpinnningSideKick said:

Kinda like Prime frames? 

Slight difference..... check. 

 

Uhn... You don't seem to get the point.

Prime warframes are an established system has been a while, and the changes in their abilities are mostly merely cosmetic. Their actual changes are some stat adjustments and/or polarities, and the additional of being able to drain Energy from death orbs. All still contained in a predictable system that DE set and is following.

Suggesting a new warframe with "slight differences" out of the loop of the Primes and Umbras just adds unnecessary fuss. We have a reason for the Primes and Umbras, and they repeat in a consistent way.

Making a "exception frame" with slightly different abilities does not. Either aim for a skin or aim for a rework, but merely going "oh, make a new warframe with small changes" is just... random and kinda nonsensical. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[SpinnningSideKick]

Funny I was thinking the same thing. 

[GX339-4]

Why there's no DE's answer to this issue? 

[Stoner]

48 minutes ago, GX339-4 said:

Why there's no DE's answer to this issue? 

Probably trying to find a solution for that mess. Tbh at this point they should have come with something else than "we're making another trailer". It just feels like they still don't have a solution. 

[Omnimorph]

Seems like the easiest solution is what someone else up-thread said - Salad found the old Prime version of Valkyr to experiment on.

So the lore is preserved in this way (haven't done TWW so don't know if that would change anything here):-

1) Primes are the original 1-1 Orokin frames for particular Zariman kids who had affinity with particular manifestations of Void energy (manifestations of their "superhero dreams", so to speak).  Valkyr Prime would be one such.

2) Subsequent frames were mass produced for the war are based on the original design, but without the fancy Orokin bits, with some design flair of their own, and called the generic name (like "Hoover" for vacuum cleaners).  This would be Gersemi Valkyr.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Omnimorph

[(PSN)Silverback73]

14 hours ago, Domesticon said:

I've heard some interesting suggestions to have history repeat itself in a sense. Have Gersemi Prime as her own thing, different powers and whatnot, and then have the Orokin twist her into Valkyr Prime. Going forward then you have Alad V seeing references to this through possible research into the Orokin, he tries to do it himself with the standard Gersemi which then makes standard Valkyr. Honestly considering the hole that DE got themselves into with all this, that's probably the best option they have, and then we get some kind of view at Gersemi before becoming Valkyr. Also makes an interesting new frame I think, one that can only be gotten through either the Void, or the Relics. I'd lean towards Void because it seriously needs some love, not much reason to go there right now.

This is not a hard retcon.  

Gersemi is the cheaper mass-produced version of the Prime.  The Corpus are Orokin 2.0 wannabes.  Within Gersemi is probably a genetic footprint/blueprint of her prime or Alad had said blueprint and tried to recreate it with what tech he had available.

So easy.

And Latex-Kitty-dominatrix-Ballgag Gersemi is 3rd Best Valkyr skin, IMO.

Edited November 26, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[VegasPrime]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

This is not a hard retcon.  

Gersemi is the cheaper mass-produced version of the Prime.  The Corpus are Orokin 2.0 wannabes.  Within Gersemi is probably a genetic footprint/blueprint of her prime or Alad had said blueprint and tried to recreate it with what tech he had available.

So easy.

And Latex-Kitty-dominatrix-Ballgag Gersemi is 3rd Best Valkyr skin, IMO.

I'm still a bit troubled about her channeled rage, originally coming from the Corpus experiments on her. Though her Orokin version is described as a proud warrior or something, if the sounds are the same as vanilla Valkyr (I don't have prime yet to tell) it wouldn't make much sense.

[arch111]

Let me ask you all this.

If DE add tail and energy wings, would this be enough to bring balance?

If I had energy and a good screengrab of the Prime I would test it. But I am too tired.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

15 minutes ago, VegasPrime said:

I'm still a bit troubled about her channeled rage, originally coming from the Corpus experiments on her. Though her Orokin version is described as a proud warrior or something, if the sounds are the same as vanilla Valkyr (I don't have prime yet to tell) it wouldn't make much sense.

If the decendant of a proud warrior is imprisoned and repeatedly tortured through experimentation, you could easily see how Alad could easily weaponize that warrior's aggression as it becomes twisted by pain and rage.  She was violated.

Edited November 26, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)Silverback73]

4 minutes ago, arch111 said:

Let me ask you all this.

If DE add tail and energy wings, would this be enough to bring balance?

If I had energy and a good screengrab of the Prime I would test it. But I am too tired.

All you would need is the Ballgag...

[arch111]

The helmet is mostly irrelevant too me since Prime Helmets are allways different.

The wings and tail gives lineage to Gersemi. 

If they made those equippable it solves most problems. Well, the armboxes is still an issue, but for the sake of Ripline, Gersemi should have had her own for that purpose. 

[DoppelShifter]

All of that still doesn't answer why she has the same gaping armor and gilded attachments in the same places that Alad V experimented on Gersemi.

And going "that's history repeating itself" is the laziest cop-out possible.

...And also doesn't score a lot of points for people who wanted her tail and winglets back, specially considering DE_Steve mentioned they thought about the Gersemi Prime skin, but decided against it.