Ash rework discussion: I am scared

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, KurtOn99 said:

so you dont have to think

This is the main crux to this rework isn't it?  Ash players have to starting thinking again.

Yeah we will have to redo builds, rethink our strategies and not sleepwalk through 150+ level enemies anymore.  This is like, the entire point behind the rework.

1 hour ago, KurtOn99 said:

If 20 enemies came in a group, you would die, we wont have the time to mark all of them and execute them.

Well since current Bladestorm hits a maximum of 17 (18?) enemies, you'd still be screwed.

1 hour ago, KurtOn99 said:

so if 5 lvl 150 heavy gunners came up to you, you couldnt save yourself by pressing 4 and going into safemode while ulting, but instead you will die,

Another fundamental reason for this rework.  Having a safemode shouldn't be without a downside.  Especially when that safemode could be activated and kept going for most of the mission for very little cost or effort or thought.

Believe it or not entire squads are formed without Ash every day and are quite capable of killing 5 lvl 150 heavy gunners without dying.  If Ash was your only recourse for high level content, you are really really screwed.

They already said, though honestly I hope they do anyway, that Ash's BS damage will be about the same and won't be changed.  He'll be capable of killing things in seconds most frames cannot. 

Try the rework before you get all gloomy.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Xekrin

[Xonovar]

Ash now goes the way of Valkyr...

 

[Xekrin]

1 minute ago, shanmuar said:

Ash now goes the way of Valkyr...

 

Useful badass that can do any mission with ease?  I sure hope so.

[Godzelda123]

I think people forget that you can like...move and jump around when you're in mark mode. Just press 4, parkour, then press 4 and kill. 

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, shanmuar said:

Ash now goes the way of Valkyr...

 

You mean no longer a cheese frame?

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

As an Ash main with roughly 900 Hours playing Ash, here's my two cents.

First of all, I'll be the first to admit it's not a bladestorm rework, it's a bladestorm nerf. Telling it as it is. No use sugar coating the pill.

No matter how you look at it, Bladestorm went from a guaranteed 18 enemies targeted by three clones that kept attacking the same targets over and over till they pretty much died to a system where you have to manually aim at each enemy up to three times to fully mark them, then unleash a move that should in theory attack them only three times in a row. Devs hinted bladestorm would get a buff to compensate, but judging from what Rebecca said yesterday, it deals the same damage as pre-rework, so definitively a nerf. I also find it kinda funny that he main complain was the non-interactivity of the bladestorm cutscene, yet the rework still features a cutscene... So you still have the unskippable cutscene, but now you have to work to get it running, basically.

That said, do I really care ?

Personally, not really. I've been an Ash main pretty much ever since I got warframe, back when Bladestorm was a single target, slow as hell move that didn't deal finisher damage. Back then, I simply never used bladestorm, since Smoke Screen cost way less energy, gave me the melee stealth multiplier and allowed me to kill enemies faster than bladestorm did anyway. Back then, I could have used Loki, but I hated the yellow tint on stealth plus the fact loki has muzzled sound when invisible... Plus the fact that Ash was a ninja and I'm playing a space ninja game to play a ...Ninja !

For years, I used Smoke Screen Ash as my main... Especially when DE started adding cool augments. Being able to share invisibility was awesome with Smoke Shadow, so was Seeking Shuriken... Being able to strip armor with a single shuriken makes a huge difference in endgame ,and I simply love it. Recently, the addition of Fatal Teleport allows pretty much covert-lethality damage on non-dagger, plus it makes Teleport even more reliable for guaranteed endgame kills on stuff like bombads... Basically, Ash's kit is great as of today, and varied enough to make him one great character, regardless of what happens with bladestorm.

When the Bladestorm 2.0 rework hit, making it finisher damage and giving it three clones, I used my Bladestorm Ash for some time. I wasn't as spammy as some bladestorm Ash I meet, who go full range and basically spam bladstorm over and over again. I'll admit I had great moments with my bladestorm Ash, mostly when going for very high level void missions and using the awesome synergy bladestorm had with Arcane Trickery.

That said, ever since I heard about the upcoming nerf,  I went back to using a more traditional Ash build, with long duration, armor stripping shurikens, shared invisibilty and precision killing of single targets... With the occasional bladestorm when I get overcrowed. In a sense, i had already moved on from the meta of spammy bladstorm ashes, and I feel it's actually more involved and interesting to play... Reminds me why I've been playing ash in the first place for so long... Not just to trivialise content by spamming a single button.

When I look at the Ash rework with that mindset, I see great tactical potential. I see myself targeting key targets while cloaked, I see myself doing alot more fullfilling solo play using it... And I like what I'm seeing.

At this point, the only thing I'm kinda dreading is the fact that with alot less targets per bladestorm, I won't have a way to reliably get my arcane trickery to pop up.

So yes, it's a nerf... But I think Ash as a frame has a good enough toolkit to handle it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Xekrin]

My only concern, unless I'm mistaken, is having to mouseover and re-mouseover a target to mark it 3 times.  Would be better to have it mark every second or 0.5 seconds maybe that the reticle is on a target rather than having to move the mouse about erratically just to mark it over and over.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Xekrin

[trunks013]

1 hour ago, KurtOn99 said:

So we all know today arrives Ash bladestorm rework..So i have some things to point out and see what you have to say..

Before:
-If 20 enemies came in a group, you would press 4 to kill them, so you dont have to think about you dying etc.
-Neverminding the enemy level, you will keep hitting them until they dead, if they dont die, you simply recast.
Soon/today: (what is/would/going to happen after rework)
-If 20 enemies came in a group, you would die, we wont have the time to mark all of them and execute them.
-Multiple tags on an enemy: Soon you will have to mark enemies multiple times to get them killed if they are tough which is really bad imo, so if 5 lvl 150 heavy gunners came up to you, you couldnt save yourself by pressing 4 and going into safemode while ulting, but instead you will die, becouse like i said, no time to mark such high dmging enemies.

I feel sorry for the people who will buy Ash Deluxe skin to not even play considering how broken (in a bad way) will it be..

Sorry for my bad english and possibly bad explanation but i hope you understand what i ment, basicly, what i mean, you aint gonna save to bum this time when the rework arrives.

Depends of the point of view tenno.

For me honestly Ash is gonna become "BROKEN" in a super good way.

Thats my personal taste of course. I just feel like running an entire map sealth marking all enemy and getting focus to simply EXPLODE.

But of course if you dont have that need than yeah it may make you sad.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

44 minutes ago, RazrOutlaw said:

They said they are making it so if you cast bladestorm while invisible (under the effect of smokescreen only I think it is) it costs less energy, so maybe you can skip a bit of efficiency to prioritize a bit more duration/strength, other than that, Smokescreen can now be casted while moving, I think that's it IIRC.

Thank you for the info :)

[GrinningMary]

Honestly, the rework makes it feel like an ambush ability. Like, you peek into a room, see the patrols, set up some specific bladestorming to either clear the room, or just enemies that would get in your way, then go. More like an aggressive stealth thing.

[CTanGod]

Just now, Xekrin said:

Useful badass that can do any mission with ease?  I sure hope so.

How is he useful in all missions when it will take ages just to select the targets you want to kill? He doesn't even have CC in any form and his only role was to deal damage now he will be completely useless for groups and anything that involves defence or interception. Might as well use Loki with Invisibility build and it will be more or less the same thing as new Ash. If the DE also changed Shuriken to be an AOE cone that stuns enemies and marks them for a few seconds then yes he would still be useful but right now I'd rather use Paralasys to try and kill enemies, it will probably be faster than the new Bladestorm.

Ash might have other abilities but it doesn't mean they are all worthwhile he's not like Excalibur where you can throw away 3 abilities and he'd still be relevant (I'm talking about Radial Blind).

If DE doesn't want any other major changes they should at least give Bladestorm's targetting reticle an AOE around it (somewhat like Mesa's Peacemaker) for easier targetting.... this IS a fast paced action game after all...

[Noioiy]

Why are you scared OP? The update isn't out yet and people are already losing their sleep over it.

Why not you wait and see how it works, and then come back and give feedback? Maybe playing as ash after the update ships will be a much more engaging experience.

At least try it out for once before making threads like R.I.P Ash.

[MopUpCrewman]

21 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Hey Tenno,

We understand there are and have been some initial concerns about the changes, but we really encourage you give Ash's new Bladestorm an honest try after today's Update goes live. Once you have him in your hands and can really get a feel for it our doors are (as always) open to your feedback. 

This thread will be locked once the update goes live. We'll house your feedback in a separate Megathread. Thanks guys. 

I was looking forward to killing enemies that are being attacked, instead of waiting hours for an Ash to kill a single Bombard.

I was very happy about this change. Then suddenly, it's not coming. One of the most demanded things related to Bladestorm is NOT being fixed. Why? No, seriously. Why?

What's next? DE confirms Banshee Prime and doesn't relea-

Wait, that already happened.

[EmptyDevil]

47 minutes ago, RazrOutlaw said:

They said they are making it so if you cast bladestorm while invisible (under the effect of smokescreen only I think it is) it costs less energy, so maybe you can skip a bit of efficiency to prioritize a bit more duration/strength, other than that, Smokescreen can now be casted while moving, I think that's it IIRC.

 

2 minutes ago, (XB1)OTF SERENiTY said:

Thank you for the info :)

Just a little nitpick, but i believe Reb said Blade Storm would cost less energy under all forms of invisibility. So he will benefit from Huras, Shade, Trickery, Naramon, and Ivara's Cloak Arrow.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

1 minute ago, CTanGod said:

How is he useful in all missions when it will take ages just to select the targets you want to kill? He doesn't even have CC in any form and his only role was to deal damage now he will be completely useless for groups and anything that involves defence or interception. Might as well use Loki with Invisibility build and it will be more or less the same thing as new Ash. If the DE also changed Shuriken to be an AOE cone that stuns enemies and marks them for a few seconds then yes he would still be useful but right now I'd rather use Paralasys to try and kill enemies, it will probably be faster than the new Bladestorm.

Ash might have other abilities but it doesn't mean they are all worthwhile he's not like Excalibur where you can throw away 3 abilities and he'd still be relevant (I'm talking about Radial Blind).

If DE doesn't want any other major changes they should at least give Bladestorm's targetting reticle an AOE around it (somewhat like Mesa's Peacemaker) for easier targetting.... this IS a fast paced action game after all...

Sonicor really helps in Defense and Interception missions using Ash, since he does kinda lack in the crowd control department.

[Shad0wWatcher]

Guess you just gotta be creative and play it stealthy, weird right? Ninja having to be stealthy? Wow such a drastic change...

Sarcasm aside. Before we loved bladestorm cause it was a quick and easy way to get rid of the enemies in the room. Then came Excalibur's exalted blade and people wanted something like that for Ash. Then suddenly people started seeing that Ash's bladestorm was a pretty stupid-proof skill(which it was). This story was going somewhere but it's going on for too long so whatever.

What i'm trying to say, this'll pass. We'll either get used to it or, after actually trying the damn thing out before freaking out and throwing your PC/laptop from your desk, give some constructive feedback to DE about how and what could be tweaked, what could be better and what just doesn't work.

[Cubewano]

20 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

Oh i always forget that Ash has only 1 Ability named Blade Storm.

Smoke Screen doesn't exist and invisibility is not THE ONLY DEFENSIVE SKILL IN THE ENTIRE GAME THAT SCALES.

If we are talking invis then why use Ash when Loki is right around the bend with a superior version (and an arguably better ult as well)? 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Cubewano

[EmptyDevil]

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

If we are talking invis then why use Ash when Loki is right around the bend with a superior version (and an arguably better ult)? 

That arguable IMO. Ash won't have to stop moving or anything to use his, it has a stagger, plus it's nice and quick. Blade Storm will cost less energy under invisibility too.

[CTanGod]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Sonicor really helps in Defense and Interception missions using Ash, since he does kinda lack in the crowd control department.

You can say that about any frame so it's not helping our plight....

[CTanGod]

1 minute ago, EmptyDevil said:

That arguable IMO. Ash won't have to stop moving or anything to use his, it has a stagger, plus it's nice and quick. Blade Storm will cost less energy under invisibility too.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut Bladestorm will be much worse now so...... 10/10 would Radial Disarm again!

[bl4ckhunter]

i wonder, if we have to mark enemies one by one doesn't fatal teleport kind of put bladestorm into the dumpster? i mean, it deals more damage even if you build minimal strenght, refunds energy and is a whole lot faster, if i have to mark enemies one by one i might just kill them already instead.

[Sar.K.Asmus]

8 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

If we are talking invis then why use Ash when Loki is right around the bend with a superior version (and an arguably better ult)? 

Smoke Screen + Teleport + Covert Lethality = One hit any enemy in the game, that is not flying and survive for a long time (Killing faster then any Loki with any wapon in higher lvl and you have the same survivability).

Smoke Screen+reworked Blade Storm = again better dmg then any weapon in high lvl and the same survivability as Loki.

Show me a weapon that can deal more dmg then Blade Storm and i would use it all the time while playing my Loki.

Edited November 25, 2016 by The-Tective

[CTanGod]

1 minute ago, The-Tective said:

Smoke Screen + Teleport + Covert Lethality = One hit any enemy in the game, that is not flying and survive for a long (Killing faster then any Loki with any wapon in higher lvl and you have the same survivability).

Smoke Screen+reworked Blade Storm = again better dmg then any weapon in high lvl and the same survivability as Loki.

Show me a weapon that can deal more dmg then Blade Storm and i would use it all the time while playing my Loki.

Any melee weapon with Maiming strike + Blood Rush and Radial Blind, your move. xD

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, EmptyDevil said:

That arguable IMO. Ash won't have to stop moving or anything to use his, it has a stagger, plus it's nice and quick. Blade Storm will cost less energy under invisibility too.

You don't have to stop moving for Loki either, glide man glide, and I don't think I've ever found the stagger on Ash's smokescreen to ever be actually useful, especially not at the cost of its low duration. Also not clear on what the purpose was for that last comment, do you think that meek 5 energy saved per mark on a short duration ability that you might have to cast a few times during makes it better than Loki's radial disarm? 

[Whit3Powd3R]

Im happy with the changes. Looks challenging in some way. And hopefully he won't be press 4 to win frame. Also this skin looks damn nice ;p