Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

But lets look at these in specific..

Now let's see Issues solved vs Issues created by Revisit:

-Smoke Screen can now be cast mid air and while moving (issue solved)

-Teleport can be cast in objects (issue partially solved, as you need sheer luck there will be a box where you want to go)

-Teleport often bugs you and get you stuck inside objects (issue created)

never had that one in my life and i play ash a lot.

I had them so often that I actively avoid teleporting to objects, big crates, blunts and ramparts in particular.

Shuriken has only one reliable way to hit what you are aiming: aim at an isolated target.

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

-Blade Storm energy cost increased by 200-600% (issue created) 

Ash teleports psysicly what makes you pick up energy while you go. Same cost - reward ratio as before but energy orbs have been made to expire, what makes him actually more effective as before in doing this task

Old Blade Storm could pick orbs as it went too. Let's compare numbers:

Old BS: 18 targets for 100 energy.

New BS: 15 energy per target per mark.

For 18 targets, new BS needs 15*18 (45*18 if you apply 3 marks) which nets a total cost for the same amount of enemies of 280 (810).

Yeah, I can TOTALLY see the same cost. Granted, old BS would use 100 energy even if it was just one dude. But since we have Teleport for dispatching single high profile targets and BS gig is mass murder... yeah..

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

-Blade Storm marking mode doesn't encourage tactical marking, just spinning the camera like you're having a seizure (issue created)

Encourages passive marking while you just play the game

Which main function is to highlight enemies in dark rooms and drain all your energy when a big crowd shows up and you need a quick smoke out.

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

-Blade Storm duration increased cause clones no longer assisst (issue created)

Clones assist after the attack if thd enemy is still alive, what effectively doubles (multiplies?) the damage. Ideal for the "no need for max range" model.

Clones assist after the attack, which means if you attack 20 dudes you have to eat 20 cinematics. doubles or triples the overall damage by doubling/tripling the cost. You don't need max range because the marking has 50m range which is larger than most rooms in the game.

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Conclave:

-Shuriken damage nerfed and tracking removed (issue created)

-Blade Storm issues created:

  +marks have 8m range and dissapear if target goes beyond that

  +Ash loses all mobility while marking mode is active and can't parkour.

  +Ash is vulnerable to damage mid animation by stray fire or AoE effects

  +If target dies while having a Mark, Ash doesn't get energy refunded

  +If Ash dies while a mark is active he loses all energy

bugs, not issues. You might adress those in the conclave bug section instead.

Those aren't bugs pal. Bug is that Tear Gas Smoke Screen agument does nothing. Those are how DE made the abilities. It's to the point the best thing about Ash in Conclave is that he can devote ALL his energy to Melee Channeling as the abilities are pointless outside of very very specific scenarios.

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

All in all: Nothing that couldn't be consideret personal issues. But it's sure convinient to have at least something to push a agenda you guys have been pushing for months is it not?

Well, using his wristblades as actual weapons has been a requested feature pretty much since Valkyr exist. We just see the issues (to which we are not blind to) and try to find a way to solve them, which ended up in the conclusion that a Stance ultimate is the most likely path to adress them all. How his other abilities are changed is up in the air, though the general consensus is that Smoke Screen should make an actual smoke cloud instead of being "invisibility but shorter and with a sh*tty stagger".

Our common agenda is to make Ash better with actual rework, and undo the damage DE made without giving a single Void about him.

Will these changes affect you in any negative way? Unlikely as the easy mode BS was removed in favor a less rewarding and ridiculously expensive BS.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

You must be talking level 3 sorties because there is such a thing as health and shield mods, plus Rapid Resilience. But I do agree, the multiple mark system is just dumb, just the marking system alone is enough of a change

[Ryme]

This seems like a really inefficient way to complain that Blade Storm doesn't do more damage. The ability to mark something multiple times allows for better energy management, as the cost of each mark is refunded if not consumed. If you mark something 3 times and it dies in 1, the cost of the 2 other marks is given back. Heck, there's no rule that says you have to mark them 3 times either.  If they don't die to one, there's no reason that you can't mark and attack them again, like other frames do with their abilities.

It takes less than a second to mark an enemy multiple times, even without spazzing so hard that you make yourself sick, or don't look at the screen if you can't not spazz. You don't even have to be stationary while marking enemies. You can run, jump, slide, and even cast other skills while marking. You consume no energy in Blade Storm marking mode, unless you mark something, so you could just turn it on early and mark enemies as soon as you see them. If you are being killed while marking, that's really more on your own skills, especially since Ash has an invisibility skill. You have as much an excuse to complain about being killed as Loki does; enemies don't shoot at you, you're the one that's standing in the path of enemy shots.

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Ryme

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Our common agenda is to make Ash better with actual rework, and undo the damage DE made without giving a single Void about him.

Works fine for me. Can't say i need another exalted ability in my life.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Works fine for me. Can't say i need another exalted ability in my life.

This wouldn't be "another exalted ability". That implies a Stance Blade Storm would work the same (slidespam and Espam). We are aiming for greater potential.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

5 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

This wouldn't be "another exalted ability". That implies a Stance Blade Storm would work the same (slidespam and Espam). We are aiming for greater potential.

The other abilitys sure as hell weren't supposed to be "just other exalted abiltys" too as this criteria came up by locking out specific mods from ability melee which became the mandatory for regular melee and outnumbered abilitys with ease, by far. But look what happened. Thanks, i'll pass. I actually like and prefer playing melee to it's full potential. Don't need any of that.

Edited April 27, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The other abilitys sure as hell weren't supposed to be "just other exalted abiltys" too as this criteria came up by locking out specific mods from ability melee which became the mandatory foe regular melee and outnumbered abilitys with ease, by far. But look what happened. Thanks, i'll pass.

Let me ask you a question. Which melee weapon can do a Finisher on multiple enemies at the same time? Can you picture in your mind the kill potential of that sort of thing? Well, that's what we are aiming for. Combines with Teleport perfectly to create manual Blade Storms and eliminates the overlap between the two.

[Troll_Logic]

55 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

Personally I just turn on Bladestorm and then spazz out with my mouse across the whole room and it marks everything 3 times.

I do the same thing.  Still doesn't always get everyone.

You're actually agreeing with me.  Anything less than 3 marks is a waste.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

17 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Let me ask you a question. Which melee weapon can do a Finisher on multiple enemies at the same time? Can you picture in your mind the kill potential of that sort of thing? Well, that's what we are aiming for. Combines with Teleport perfectly to create manual Blade Storms and eliminates the overlap between the two.

Galatine Prime with weeping wounds, Primed Reach , Drifting contact, crit, blood rush and Maiming Strike.

 

Slash proccs calculating off slide base x Maiming strike/blood rush base (blood rush off 100%+ crit chance base)

Aoe Finisher damage surpassing anything ash could ever do (not that it's realistic for ash to get a stance that would make finisher damage a free cast in the first place.)

Ever wondered why the telos boltace was nerfed? It was because how easy it was to build this up.

Ash still got it easy ~

Edited April 27, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Troll_Logic]

20 minutes ago, Ryme said:

This seems like a really inefficient way to complain that Blade Storm doesn't do more damage

I'm not arguing that BS should do more damage.  I'm arguing that Ash starting off slapping enemies is stupid.

21 minutes ago, Ryme said:

The ability to mark something multiple times allows for better energy management, as the cost of each mark is refunded if not consumed. If you mark something 3 times and it dies in 1, the cost of the 2 other marks is given back.

Why wouldn't energy be returned is the enemy is killed by someone else?

I covered this in the example.  There is "Theory Warframe" where players go into a room, assess the situation, pick the best weapon, communicate the strategy, and systematically execute the strategy so the enemies are killed in the most efficient way possible.  There is "Reality Warframe" where everyone runs as fast as possible, maybe killing enemies as they run by them (maybe not), hitting the objective, and then racing to extract to see who "wins."

My first example, and yours, is not how Warframe is played.  Not even close.

25 minutes ago, Ryme said:

 If they don't die to one, there's no reason that you can't mark and attack them again, like other frames do with their abilities.

Unless they are attacking Ash at the same time.  I have died more than a few times when I pop out of BS and they are still shooting me because I didn't kill them.

The old BS was perfect about this.  If a player hit a really tough enemy, the BS would stay on that one enemy until he was dead.  Maybe he was the only one killed.  But Ash focused on the enemies until they were dead.  Which is smarter than slapping them.

26 minutes ago, Ryme said:

It takes less than a second to mark an enemy multiple times

Nope.  Even spazzing the mouse, it takes longer.  Unless you are talking about a single lone enemy, then just shoot him.

27 minutes ago, Ryme said:

You can run, jump, slide, and even cast other skills while marking. You consume no energy in Blade Storm marking mode, unless you mark something, so you could just turn it on early and mark enemies as soon as you see them.

Really?  Please tell me more strategy.  Will your next advice to be pick up energy spheres?  

28 minutes ago, Ryme said:

If you are being killed while marking, that's really more on your own skills, especially since Ash has an invisibility skill.

Yeah.  I'm sure that's true.  I'm the only Ash that has ever died in the game.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Galatine Prime with weeping wounds, Primed Reach , Drifting contact, crit, blood rush and Maiming Strike.

Slash proccs calculating off slide base x Maiming strike/blood rush base (blood rush off 100%+ crit chance base)

blah blah, meta build, blah blah.

5 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

What's melee got to do with ash?

Still missing the point. It's like those who didn't get the joke at the end of 8bit Theater.

 

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Finisher damage surpassing anything ash could ever do (not that it's realistic for ash to get a stance that would make finisher damage a free cast in the first place.)

Ever wondered why the telos boltace was nerfed? It was because how easy it was to build this up.

Well, Telos Boltace was a spam macro. And we are talking a Blade Storm stance where the basic combo and slide spam do jack, but the other combos offer finisher openings (or use Teleport) to Finish several enemies per finisher attack, which would bring old BS levels of destructive power while not being a a macro spamfest, nor exalted turret. Interactive and more powerful that the sh*t we got.

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ash still got it easy ~

"That something works doesn't mean it's right" -Nazrethim, 2503 (stupid time machine)

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

8 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

blah blah, meta build, blah blah.

Still missing the point. It's like those who didn't get the joke at the end of 8bit Theater.

 

Well, Telos Boltace was a spam macro. And we are talking a Blade Storm stance where the basic combo and slide spam do jack, but the other combos offer finisher openings (or use Teleport) to Finish several enemies per finisher attack, which would bring old BS levels of destructive power while not being a a macro spamfest, nor exalted turret. Interactive and more powerful that the sh*t we got.

"That something works doesn't mean it's right" -Nazrethim, 2503 (stupid time machine)

You asked and you recieved.

Plus, again, what's the chance DE would give him spammable finishers? Sounds like it would be nerfed to slash damage with x% status chance without access to meta mods within a week to me.

Seriously pal, do you really, actually, honestly think this would happen? How many reworks have you witnessed so far? Do you really believe this would do him any good?

Edited April 27, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You asked and you recieved.

Plus, again, what's the chance DE would give him spammable finishers? Sounds like it would be nerfed to slash damage with x% status chance without access to meta mods within a week to me.

Seriously pal, do you really, actually, honestly think this would happen? How many reworks have you witnessed so far? Do you really believe this would do him any good?

Tenno: What happened to you?

Teshin: They gave up.

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

6 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Tenno: What happened to you?

Teshin: They gave up.

 

Ye, avoid the topic of realism. That's probably for the best.

Edited April 27, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You asked and you recieved.

Plus, again, what's the chance DE would give him spammable finishers? Sounds like it would be nerfed to slash damage with x% status chance without access to meta mods within a week to me.

Seriously pal, do you really, actually, honestly think this would happen? How many reworks have you witnessed so far? Do you really believe this would do him any good?

How many reworks? Nekros was great, as was Excalibur, Limbo, Volt to an extent, and the most recent frames have been really well designed. Acting pessimistic doesn't help, and completely defeats the purpose of this thread.

Edited April 27, 2017 by (PS4)LastDoomKnight

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Just now, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

How many reworks? Nekros was great, as was Excalibur, Limbo, Volt to an extent, and the most recent frames have been really well designed. Acting pessimistic doesn't help.

They "balanced" necros shadows, excals waves got nerfed just recently, Limbo is still in the process of balancing, Volt, ye and nah.

 

But spammable finisher sure sounds realistic.

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ye, avoid the topic of realism. That's probably for the best.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

But spammable finisher sure sounds realistic.

Interesting that I mentioned it wouldn't be spammable. Or at least not something you can macro.

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

They "balanced" necros shadows, excals waves got nerfed just recently, Limbo is still in the process of balancing, Volt, ye and nah.

 

But spammable finisher sure sounds realistic.

Idk about spammable finishers, sounds a bit op, but any change to make the ability more interactive is welcome.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

7 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Interesting that I mentioned it wouldn't be spammable. Or at least not something you can macro.

A not spammable stance "that can attack multiple enemys at once", ay.

 

Doesn't sound spammable at all.

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

Idk about spammable finishers, sounds a bit op, but any change to make the ability more interactive is welcome.

Don't focus on it but use it passive and he's quite interactive.

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

Idk about spammable finishers, sounds a bit op, but any change to make the ability more interactive is welcome.

Considering Blade Storm is a glorified Teleport Spam that already does Finisher damage, and that part of the appeal of old BS was Finishinh off multiple enemies at the same time. A stance ultimate that makes Finishers affect small groups of enemies on 'pause' combos or Teleports would make it a manual interactive version of Blade Storm. Cutscene could even be kept by adding a 'hold' function to Teleport to mark and initiate current BS. The Teleport cost is similar to current BS marking cost and they overlap anyway.

 

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Don't focus on it but use it passive and he's quite interactive.

He means "interactive" in the sense "you actually use the ability or have a say on it" not "you don't use it and leave it on as you go about your business". By this point you only need to suggest  Ash should drop the marking entirely and send clones to enemies as he stares at them while in marking mode.

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Don't focus on it but use it passive and he's quite interactive.

You're missing the point. I made this thread to talk about the issues with Bladestorm. Ash is a pretty good frame overall, his first three abilities are useful and fun. I don't want to ignore his 4th, it has a lot of ways it could be tweaked even minorly and be better than it is right now. It is a boring ability. It is not fun to use. 

[ashrah]

ash have 2 and 3..bladestorm is killed...as oberon mag.. and  many reworked things..