Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)RNickS_BRASIL]

2 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

Let's do this, then, since so many pro gamers find this to be the very smartest, most interactive, most skill-based mechanic yet introduced to the game:

>>>>  MAKE ALL PLAYERS MANUALLY TARGET EVERY AoE ABILITY FROM NOW ON.  <<<<

Equinox, Frost, Ember, Rhino, Excaliber, Saryn, Banshee, Hydroid, and every other Warframe with AeE abilities should have to manually scan and target crowds before using their abilities, just like the new Ash.

This way, the game is entirely skill-based for pro-gamers.

Because, as so many have pointed out, this is the best mechanic DE has created to date and makes the game more fun.

Or, for the less ravenous:

Bladestorm needed a redesign, because Ash fairly unbalanced low-level game play (just like Equinix and Simulor Mirage). But this was not a redesign or re-imagining—it was a straight-up Nerf hatchet job, requiring as little time and resources as could be managed. This did not level the playing field, but instead sacrificed yet another Warframe to appease the pro gamer crowd.

Bladestorm needs to be redesigned in such a way as to complement other Warframe abilities and remain viable throughout a wide range of difficulty levels. Redesigns aren't done with Nerf hammers.

Thats the point !!! 

NERF HAMMERS  are not the way to make the game better

THE BIG QUESTION IS ; if is this mark mechanic good then all Warframes like Ember , Frost , Saryn , Banshe , Equinox and others that use the old press 4 must be equiped with this too then ask everyone that seems to don't care about what have done to BS if is ok if they will be happy using this ''MECHANIC'' on others warframe abilities .

[trace_phage]

no more range mods for ash?

[SemperSupra]

I still don't like bladestorm but I could get used to it IF range radius were returned to the target(s). That is all. You don't have to like my comment, and it is fine if you like it the way that it is now. I just happened to like it the way that it was.

[Tengu_Bruxo]

Hello Fellow Tenno’s

I normally lurk the forums, keeping most of my opinions to myself. (Overall average is posting once a year. Lol)

The new Koga skin is incredible, I can’t say enough about this! Thank you very much for this awesome design DE.  

Ok, down to the reason at hand. I’ve played Ash since closed Beta; have had various discussions about his kit over many years. (Here is a link from 2013 on the very matter https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76895-new-ultimate-for-ash/

 The current rework is leaps and bounds in the right direction. The change to smoke screen is incredible! (Having the ability to fully move while using this ability is fantastic).

 I do have some criticism, or maybe a better word would be “suggestions”.  The stealth duration still feels a bit short for my liking, after playing Loki, and Ivara, Ash feels like a midcore infiltrator compared to these two.  With that said, we could keep his smokescreen the same, yet add a different component to its function to set him apart from the other stealth frames. Something likes this.

-          Ash throws down a smoke bomb that affects enemies within a radius of 8/ 12/ 15/ 25 meters and staggers them for 7/ 10/ 12/ 15 seconds, Ash becomes untargetable/ stealth for 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 seconds.

But that’s just an idea. Values change be changed, etc..

The Teleport changes is also very welcome, this opens up mobility as well as crafty options to traverse the map. Fatal teleport has been my go-to for the last few months, I really enjoy the mechanic and it gives Ash that “assassin” feel that I felt he needed from the beginning.  So great job!

Now for blade storm…   

The marking systems is a cool mechanic, I do feel that it could do better on a different ability, say Shuriken, enter a room, mark a bunch of targets, fling a ton of shuriken and call it a day, but I get head of myself.  Also that kind of mentality is something that DE is trying to remove from the game.

 After playing with the new bladestorm for a few hours, I have discovered the overall energy cost is a bit steep, also the responsive nature of the ability is a bit lacking. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the synergy of smoke screen and this feature, it just feels that now in order to make an effective ash build you need to focus on efficiency.

In previous builds, Ash’s 4 was used more to survive an overwhelming group of enemies.  This way, Ash could hit his 4, regen his shields and effectively reset the fight. Unfortunately this is no longer an option, in order for something similar Ash has to reside within stealth constantly, and with the low duration this makes Ash’s viability at higher levels very limited due to the lack of diversity of his builds. (In essence forcing Ash players to spec duration) You can see where I’m going with this. Now the overall game play of Ash is going to focus on duration, efficiency even though his smoke screen has such a small window for stealth, A bit counterproductive. With the focus on “active” play I feel that the cinematic of Ash’s 4 should be removed, this way Ash could remain in his “marked form” run around marking targets, then continue finishing the map objective, or capturing the target, etc..

My suggestion is a bit similar to what I posted a few years ago. As well as looking through the countless threads, seems to be the popular opinion.  If you look at the above link, you’ll see my first pass at this idea. Over all the ability will remain the same, but instead of Ash teleporting to all of his targets, his clones will instead. This way DE can keep the cool animations that they worked on for Ash, yet leave control of the frame to the players, instead of locking us in this animation for over 12 seconds.

Shadow/Smoke clones.

-Ash will begin to mark his foes by looking at them, looking at them longer will add additional markers on enemies, signifying more than one potential attack. Activating the ability will cause Shadow/Smoke clones to attack each of the marked targets inflicting 750 / 1000 / 1500 / 2000 Finisher damage with a 100% Bleed chance.

For me this would move Ash into the mentality that DE is looking for, we’ve already found that marked targets are still killable by your group, so that removes the lock-out that others were upset with.

Anyway, that’s my ideas and thoughts.

Have fun my fellow Tenno!

[Sar.K.Asmus]

32 minutes ago, NearoC said:

Just remove the ult cinematic. That's all I want, it's the one thing I really wanted in the first place, and the one thing that wasn't changed about it. I don't mind how the other changes to it are.

If only your clones would do the stabby animation thing after you marked the enemies so that you don't have to watch the cinematic ult and you can do something else meanwhile, it would be much better (still not great but much better then it is now). Always hated to watch the ult cinematic for 10 seconds or longer. And i really thought that they get rid of it, but no it's still there.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

35 minutes ago, achromos said:

Alright, I'm someone who Liked Ash from a Distance.  I disliked him for the same reasons I disliked Rhino, he was seen as the "Newb" frame.  Let's be honest, we all know people judge you twice as harsh as a Ash. 

Can we stop this noob frame crap, it's completely stupid and it doesn't make any sense. People should be allowed to use any equipment they rightfully earn and not worry about the community shaming them.

[JalakBali]

My only constructive criticism of Ash rework:

Give Ash a reprieve after using Bladestorm. The whole process is disorienting and dumping Ash back on the spot where he was before with no control of that surrounding and not even time to adjust yourself is not fun. So my suggestion is immediately after a Bladestorm is over, give Ash a free Smokescreen.

[BronzeWolf]

44 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

>>>>  MAKE ALL PLAYERS MANUALLY TARGET EVERY AoE ABILITY FROM NOW ON.  <<<<

Equinox, Frost, Ember, Rhino, Excaliber, Saryn, Banshee, Hydroid, and every other Warframe with AeE abilities should have to manually scan and target crowds before using their abilities, just like the new Ash.

Why stop there? Let's give all frames incremental energy costs, loss of effectiveness over range, loss of effectiveness over time, and ability costs not being reduced despite being at range where their ability's effectiveness is reduced by 50%.

[sonkun]

18 hours ago, bebar69 said:

After few test

Escalibur and Inaros have better stun

Loki and Ivara have better invisility skill

Why play again Ash?

U forgot Mesa, Saryn, Mirage have better dmage...

[dadaddadada]

The marking cone should be larger by default i think. other than that im fine.

[achromos]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

Can we stop this noob frame crap, it's completely stupid and it doesn't make any sense. People should be allowed to use any equipment they rightfully earn and not worry about the community shaming them.

There is a reason why the community does this, I'm speaking as Devils Advocate here.  I LIKE Rhino, I LIKE ash, I like Limbo... when he isn't stopping me from getting loot.  But the best way to stop this 'noob frame' stuff is if the community works on the appearance.  Look at Rhino, while some people may be quick to judge here or there... after his rework and the people who main rhino a lot showed off their best... Very little people really speak ill about the frame.

With limbo, well...  We just need to find a way to keep him from interfering with the loot gathering part of this game.  Personally?  I groan if I see a limbo in my group, especially if I am using a long range weapon, it's almost as bad with frost but at least I could go inside and shoot out. 

With Ash?  Ash has cultivated the mentality of it being the "MLG 1337 Noscope Bladestorm the Map, everyone sit back and be my towel-boy" frame.  With this change to his Bladestorm people may have to change their opinion, but how that opinion will shift depends on the people who play Ash a lot. 

Do I think this stuff is stupid personally?  Well, yes.  Though let's be honest here, most people have a knee jerk reaction (just like I do with limbo) to seeing certain frames.

Like when I see a Equinox, I expect a Maim build which will always top the charts in DPS, and while I personally see it as a boon for the team (takes the damage you deal out and adds it into a pool to nuke the room) others see it as competition.

I don't support Shaming, actual shaming.  Jokes?  Yes.  Though I am happy for Ashes rework, those that can adapt and evolve and find themselves playing Ash a lot should hopefully have a chance to reduce the stigma against him while providing useful teamwork in each setting he/she can.

[SquidTheSid]

So, Ash's rework just came out, and it's pretty underwhelming. Smoke Screen got a very nice QoL change and Teleport became marginally more useful. However, Bladestorm got completely neutered without having its largest issues fixed. Also, Shuriken got completely ignored, despite needing some love.  So overall, let me know what you think in the comments below. Too much? Too little? I tried to reward Ash players for being a stealthy assassin, rather than mashing the 4 key. 

Shuriken:

* Now scales with base damage and multishot mods. 

* Ash can now select one of 4 Shurikens from a “Quiver” style system (tap to cast, hold to select shurikens). He has his standard slash-based shuriken, in addition to a fire shuriken, a gas shuriken, and a viral shuriken. Each elemental shuriken deals its damage as 50% slash and 50% fire/gas/viral and has a 100% chance to proc its current element. 

*Shurikens that hit walls, cover, or other solid objects will remain lodged for 10 seconds.  - as suggested by /u/4G3NT_0R4NG

Reasoning: Currently, Shuriken doesn’t scale all that well and offers little utility. With the inheritance from base damage mods, Shuriken gets that needed damage scaling for Sorties (though it doesn’t scale with elemental/IPS mods, so it doesn’t get too powerful) and giving him the “Quiver” system makes the ability a lot more versatile (since it now has CC, an AoE DoT, and a health debuff suited for priority targets). 

Smoke Screen:

* Smoke Screen now creates a smoke cloud that lasts the duration. Any enemy that is in this cloud or walks into the cloud will be blinded for 1/2/3/4 seconds and will receive a -20% accuracy debuff if they remain in the cloud.  

* If Ash’s augment is equipped, any ally that is in or enters the smoke cloud will become invisible for the remainder for Smoke Screen’s duration. 

* Holding the ability key will allow ash to aim the smoke bomb at a specific location while releasing it will throw the bomb to that location. If Ash is not cloaked, he does not become invisible unless he enters the cloud. 

* Ash can recast Smoke Screen, but the invisibility does not stack/refresh. 

* Duration increased to 4/6/8/10 seconds

* Stagger has now been removed (due to the blinding effect).

* Cost increased to 50 energy. 

Reasoning: Smoke Screen is a weird ability, and to me, it feels like a lesser Invisibility or Prowl. Yes, it has a stagger, but compared to Loki’s Invisibility which has 50% more duration at base, it’s seriously lacking. Since Ash is an offensive/stealth-focused frame, I decided to make Smoke Screen much more of an offensive ability. Its CC isn’t too strong (it’s a relatively short-duration blind in a not so-large AoE). 

Teleport:

*Ash can teleport to his shurikens. - as suggested by /u/4G3NT_0R4NG

Reasoning: It provides some synergy in his kit and allows him to combo Shuriken and Teleport for a fairly solid mobility tool. 

Bladestorm:

* Cost now reduced to 7 energy per mark

* Bladestorm deals 300% damage to unalerted enemies or enemies susceptible to counterattack finishers. 

* Rising Storm now additionally increases the melee combo multiplier by 0.6 (from 0.5) per increment (affected by mods)
   
* Ash no longer directly teleports to enemies. Instead, he sends out a clone for each marked enemy. - as suggested by /u/4G3NT_0R4NG
 
* Smoke Screen no longer reduces energy cost. 

Reasoning: So Bladestorm just got a straight up nerf with this update and it was a pretty big one. Yeah, it’s more “interactive” but you’re still locked into an animation after you enter “execution” mode. The energy cost, at base, is pretty ridiculous, so it got reduced to a far more reasonable 5 energy per attack. Given the energy reduction, Smoke Screen no longer reduces energy cost of Bladestorm.

Rising Storm also got a buff, since it became rather redundant once Body Count became available. Increasing the combo multiplier increment incentivises players to use the augment even though they have other combo increasing mods. 

 The biggest change to Bladestorm is that an additional clone is spawned. Yes, he’s no longer invulnerable during casting, but Smoke Screen should be your defensive tool, not Bladestorm. Making him not enter “sandwich gameplay” mode (in that you enter a cutscene every time you want to kill an enemy) makes him much more dynamic. 

Now. to make up for the heavy nerfs to Bladestorm, it now benefits from a 300% stealth damage multiplier on melee weapons. So tactically using Bladestorm (e.g. through stealth or via blinded enemies) will now massively reward Ash by increasing Bladestorm’s damage significantly. Ideally, I'd like Bladestorm to be entirely reworked, but I think this is a good starting place. 
 

 

[rudman88]

i find DE always doing redundant stuff and troublesome stuff.

in the past they nerve mesa to make it sight shoot - OK i am fine

 

but ash with targetting? are you kidding me, this is more energy consuming and more stupid.

 

to the noobs that say this is more energy saving count again boy.

15 energy per mark. each target up to 3.

So if you aim 7 people x 3 x 5 = 105 energy only for 5 enemy.

SO YEAH MORE WORK, MORE ENERGY for LESSER RESULT

 

I would perfer they change all skill rhino equinox to mesa type.

 

Must be on screen to dmg including frost

 

You guys are easily fooled into DE marketing scheme.

 

They will jsut release new frame that has crazt AOE and few years later the prime version of it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by rudman88

[ashrah]

i am just playing ash testing stuff i really like smoke screen and teleport changes.. if i wish teleport to have free aim and u can tele where u point  regardless of object...bladestorm...is bit clucky to be honest.. in mess u dont have  that much time to aim  target by target...

[Melkia]

I'm gonna go straight to the point, BladeStorm in his current state has to go: now it's less braindead, but is clunky as hell. Here are 2 ideas i have for the skill. I don't know if they are good or not, but they would still be infinitely better than what we have now:

 

1- An actual storm of blades, a channeled Slash damage AoE that lets you move at a very slow pace and staggers enemies. Something like a mix of Banshee Soundquake and Inaros Sandstorm. Of course the AoE would be much smaller than Banshee.

2- A melee multishot, another channeled ability that allows each one of your melee strikes to trigger something like 3 to 5 blade attacks, maybe even have the blades floating behind ash while they're not attacking.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Melkia
grammar and typos

[rudman88]

actually which community is the one whoi decide all these nonsense?

minimum they must do a poll before they start on a project. That is what a community should be.

Not everyone in warframe visit the forum even if they do, how many of them ask for this change.

DE do a poll and see how many people ask to chaneg back.

 

[kleerr2]

32 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

Why stop there? Let's give all frames incremental energy costs, loss of effectiveness over range, loss of effectiveness over time, and ability costs not being reduced despite being at range where their ability's effectiveness is reduced by 50%.

You forgot the 5 min cooldowns...

[NanoGnoman]

one more useless warframe

[MrM1]

Just now, NanoGnoman said:

one more useless warframe

''useless'' you say?

Every warframe is good at different situations. 

But I'd like to know what ''useless'' warframes you have in your mind? Maybe I can prove you wrong.

[BronzeWolf]

5 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

You forgot the 5 min cooldowns...

 I was just stating a few of Equinox' mechanics negative aspects since he's complaining about having to manually target. Although compiling a list of all mechanics that can be seen as bad would give me a copypasta for every one of these threads.

Edited November 26, 2016 by BronzeWolf
Edited a word.

[kleerr2]

4 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

 I was just stating a few of Equinox' mechanics negative aspects since he's complaining about having to manually target. Although compiling a list of all mechanics that can be seen as bad would give me a copypasta for every one of these threads.

Maybe give him an incentive to not complain? Like idk... what is the reason not to use your weapons instead of bladestorm, exactly?

[NanoGnoman]

Are you like his new ult mechanicks? its horrible. But yes, new second and third skill looks good.

I am not a "ashe fan" and i think now he is less effective for cleaning missions. 

So for me, it is a bad rework, cause old ashe was more effective.

[BronzeWolf]

1 minute ago, kleerr2 said:

Maybe give him an incentive to not complain? Like idk... what is the reason not to use your weapons instead of bladestorm, exactly?

That first part is going to be very difficult, however going over how the changes helped make Ash's alternative builds that are better for team play viable would be a good start.

[kleerr2]

2 minutes ago, BronzeWolf said:

That first part is going to be very difficult, however going over how the changes helped make Ash's alternative builds that are better for team play viable would be a good start.

Is it going to be difficult? Maybe DE could compensate a few things, and make things right, its not all that hard, is it?

When you say ''Ash's alternative builds that are better for team play", what builds do you mean, or do you just mean that:

a) Bladestorm is inefficient so players have to use ash's other skills.

b) Bladestorm no longer renders the enemy untargetable.

Maybe something else? And how did Ash become a ''teamplayer'', or rather a team contributor?

[NETHOR-ORLEX]

I have played Ash for some time now and I really never have had a problem with his blade storm ability ever. At times yes I did feel that it was indeed a very potent ultimate skill (mostly due to his blade storm killing enemies in the adjacent rooms) but hey isn't practically every other warframe's number 4 ultimate ability very powerful when you think about it.
Okay this is were things go down hill as I have to say this is by far the worst design rework to date for any of the warframe's in game. I mean why would you need to add more complexity to the same ability while every other frame is just a single button push or toggle to activate it's ultimate ability. It almost feels like the developers wanted to appease the Ash haters more than pleasing the actual Ash fans out there by punishing this warframe due to how easy he was to play in the past.

Again no other warframe in the game requires you to do any other actions to active their ultimate ability. (I kinda forgot that Mesa's 4th is actually a toggle ability you have to hit 4 then hold your mouse button to fire. :P)

Ash to me was all about being the very personification of a Ninja fast agile strong hard hitting offensive abilities rather than buffing his party. But when you think about it In essence his buff to any multiplayer party was eliminating a bulk amount of enemies fast to lessen the danger to himself and others while at the same time decreasing the burden of how long a particular mission may of took to complete with out an Ash in the party.

Now with this rework to Ash's 4th ability we now have to stop any damage output then use smoke screen or run a great distance away and begin looking all around the room for targets. The whole passing your mouse cursor target  all over the room and hoping not to hold your cursor to long over a target and adding to many marks on a weaker target apposed to a heavy armor/life target just adds more trouble to the already tedious task.
All I get out of this rework is the absolute feeling of wasted time spent doing an extra layer of complexity just to get the same result but with more problems to Ash's energy pool and missed target opportunities.

Now lets talk about a very intelligent 4th ability rework idea that came about from other Ash fans that would of been a nice addition and would have toned down how potent blade storm was previously with out making it a total mess as it is currently. The idea was that Ash's blade storm would still spawn two clones that would assist you in killing all surrounding enemies in visual range while you yourself would be free to move about using your guns or melee weapons or other abilities like shuriken and teleport for instance.

This way you can have a more interactive role while using your 4th ability hell you can even pick up a downed player as well. Another thought while we are at it why not just remove the targeting system from the 4th ability and add it to shuriken instead. Now that would be nice. :)

 

Okay rant over I do hope you guys as in [DE]Steve [DE]Scott really think about changing this soon simply because Ash's 4th ability is really not fun to use at all. :(

Edited November 26, 2016 by NETHOR-ORLEX