Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[LycanPT]

50 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

I've not played solo Ash since The Second Dream was released actually XD

So you're telling me if there's one person with Tonkor, I cannot hit a mob ones every 25 seconds? That sounds ludicrous.

In an ideal team comp, you need 1-2 damage dealers. Anything more will lead to a kill starving and won't make good use of them. If one of them is an Ash, he can easily find his way. "Sustaining the combo" means hitting a melee or BS ones in 25 seconds for god's sake. Do you really find it hard? Some missions like Akkad will pose the problem you name BUT most missions will let me freely run around and do my job even with a team filled with Synoid Simulors (have tried it actually on a grineer sortie survival).

I digress though, I can see why you'd like other frames. It's more of a "rush to get most kills" kind of thing right? Well if that's the case then that's fine. Play as you wish. I just tried to show off what I found works really well for me as a DPS character with the new rework, sorry it doesn't fit your playstyle.

you and I have different concepts of DPS characters, my concept comes from playing countless games where DPS mean you are the one to kill most of the enemies as fast as you can and ash is no good at it anymore

Edited December 5, 2016 by LycanPT

[-BM-Mitz]

56 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

you and I have different concepts of DPS characters, my concept comes from playing countless games where DPS mean you are the one to kill most of the enemies as fast as you can and ash is no good at it anymore

And this isn't a game like most. I feel a DPS should be able to carry in kills however in this game there seems to be a fight over who can steal kills best which I think isn't a great thing. Yeah, Ash can't steal kills as well but he can still do the killing. I think the mix of those concepts makes the DPS you mean so I see why Ash isn't good for you anymore.

My experience from countless games says multiple DPS is not always (almost never) a good thing and that seems to be what you're basing this off of or just plain think other frames do it better. Either is fine, luckily there are plenty of frames in this game so we aren't forced to use/like every single one.

[izzatuw]

*raises hand*

 

Why isn't this in PhP or GD?

[-BM-Mitz]

1 minute ago, izzatuw said:

*raises hand*

 

Why isn't this in PhP or GD?

Cause it shows where players can take the newly reworked content and it sparks a discussion that qualifies as feedback. At least that sounded about right in my head when I posted.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Should've just gone with making it duration based so the ability is still strong as ever, but isn't a spamable room clearer like most people hated. 

[Zrimers]

I want to say about the main problem that was made when changing "Storm of blades".
In the game there are warframes causing serious damage:
Mesa is a good attack in the open countryside.
Valkyr is a good attack in the narrow corridors.
And Ash, prior to the changes, not bad kill enemies in a certain area.(Regardless of the visibility of enemies)
It is now fun to play for Ash, but Ash himself has become more useless, because now it place can replace the Mesa damage, and Loki's invisibility
I propose to return ash to kill through walls.
Here is the first of ideas:
When pressing 4, Ash is mode marking. Inducing the scope, we will show the number of enemies that will fall under a storm of blades.(The energy expenditure will also depend on the number of marked enemies) And if 4 is pressed again, Ash attack selected enemies.
+I think you need to add the ability to exit ability. When you press 4 during the attack, Ash comes out of "Storm of blades", and copies of it will strike the remaining blows.

And the second idea:
When pressing 4, Ash is mode marking, as it is now. And at this moment he can see through walls, allowing him to mark those enemies he sees.And if 4 is pressed again, Ash attack selected enemies.
+As in the past, I think you need to add the ability to exit ability.
+I think you can give the possibility of teleportation(3) for visible purpose.
In the first and second case, I consider it necessary to increase the attack speed, so that the player barely had time to see the animation.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Zrimers

[LycanPT]

2 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

And this isn't a game like most. I feel a DPS should be able to carry in kills however in this game there seems to be a fight over who can steal kills best which I think isn't a great thing. Yeah, Ash can't steal kills as well but he can still do the killing. I think the mix of those concepts makes the DPS you mean so I see why Ash isn't good for you anymore.

My experience from countless games says multiple DPS is not always (almost never) a good thing and that seems to be what you're basing this off of or just plain think other frames do it better. Either is fine, luckily there are plenty of frames in this game so we aren't forced to use/like every single one.

ASh can't steal kills, hit kit is too slow for that, why do you even bother with this steal kill argument, it is pointless. IN high levels you need those fast kills and ash can't do that even in low levels anymore stand alone high levels.

And Dps is almost never a good thing? All genre games use this model because it works, what game experience do you have? Tetris? For real?

[-BM-Mitz]

13 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

ASh can't steal kills, hit kit is too slow for that, why do you even bother with this steal kill argument, it is pointless. IN high levels you need those fast kills and ash can't do that even in low levels anymore stand alone high levels.

And Dps is almost never a good thing? All genre games use this model because it works, what game experience do you have? Tetris? For real?

Chill with the insults dude, I made a thread to show something I found was fun to me acknowledging Ash isn''t in a perfect place, I don't get your problem with the thread. If you don't want it, don't use it.

Ash can kill but it's not as fast so you find it useless, so be it. DPS is a good thing but too much of it leaves you exposed, maybe you're the one with no game experience. Just please put it to rest, I bothered making a disclaimer hoping to avoid this discussion here as the point was to utilize what we have as of now. I got your opinion already so please just drop it.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Major_Phantom

[LycanPT]

25 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

Chill with the insults dude, I made a thread to show something I found was fun to me acknowledging Ash isn''t in a perfect place, I don't get your problem with the thread. If you don't want it, don't use it.

Ash can kill but it's not as fast so you find it useless, so be it. DPS is a good thing but too much of it leaves you exposed, maybe you're the one with no game experience. Just please put it to rest, I bothered making a disclaimer hoping to avoid this discussion here as the point was to utilize what we have as of now. I got your opinion already so please just drop it.

Insults? where? Look you seem confused you should perhabs read what I actually write.

And DPS is only a part of the team, usually you play with other people, in traditional MMO's you have the tank class, the support, the nuker and the dps with subclasses like assassin, offtank, etc. they all ahve a specific role and specific task dealing with raids. But things like you said: first DPS is almost never a good thing and now DPS is a good thing makes me wonder if you actually know what you're talking about hence my joke about the tetris

Edited December 5, 2016 by LycanPT

[Hitsuke]

Personally I don't build purely for Bladestorm since the changes. I now run a nice allround build that still gives me high BS damage while giving me 10+ secs of invisi, without hitting the range of Teleport. 1k+ HP, max armor and 1.38 run speed.

Bladestorm can still nuke an entire room if I need it to, but now I actually play the frame a lot more instead of sitting back pressing W and 4 occasionally. I can take Ash out again without feeling like a no skill scrub who excels at pressing 4.

[-BM-Mitz]

27 minutes ago, LycanPT said:

Insults? where? Look you seem confused you should perhabs read what I actually write.

And DPS is only a part of the team, usually you play with other people, in traditional MMO's you have the tank class, the support, the nuker and the dps with subclasses like assassin, offtank, etc. they all ahve a specific role and specific task dealing with raids. But things like you said: first DPS is almost never a good thing and now DPS is a good thing makes me wonder if you actually know what you're talking about hence my joke about the tetris

Did you perhaps not read ? 

4 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

multiple DPS is not always (almost never) a good thing

As in, stacking classes isn't advised. I never said dps is bad. . . 

[-BM-Mitz]

13 minutes ago, Hitsuke said:

Personally I don't build purely for Bladestorm since the changes. I now run a nice allround build that still gives me high BS damage while giving me 10+ secs of invisi, without hitting the range of Teleport. 1k+ HP, max armor and 1.38 run speed.

Bladestorm can still nuke an entire room if I need it to, but now I actually play the frame a lot more instead of sitting back pressing W and 4 occasionally. I can take Ash out again without feeling like a no skill scrub who excels at pressing 4.

I feel the same and with utilising the combo counter you can add more flavour to ash and avoid needing to stack BS when needed. I personally don't use sprint speed mods as teleport gets me around pretty well . 

[Ailissa]

19 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

That's because they got use to having a "press to win button after you Leeroy Jenkins into a clusterf--q that their guns can't handle" as an answer for everything.  Once that was gone, they no longer knew how to actually play Ash.  

:D  

Like a deer in the headlights .... "what do we do now?"

[Tengu_Bruxo]

This is the idea that i posted on the feed back forum.

Hey Tenno,

I’m writing this in hopes that DE will see that the community has some soild ideas, as well as caring hearts for this game. Anyway here I go.

I’ve been playing around, really thinking hard what DE could do in order to help fix this Ash rework. Tons of ideas from the community have been thrown around different fixes here and there.. With that said, I decided that make a full rundown with some of the ideas, as well as push Ash to the “assassin-estc” frame that we know that he can be.  Would love to know what you guys think.

These are my ideas.

Shuriken: Remains the same: 25 energy key 1  Ash throws 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 shuriken which seek-out enemies, each dealing 100 / 250 / 350 / 500 Slash damage with a 100% status chance.

Teleport:  remains the same: 25 energy key 2 (holding onto the current changes which make teleport much better) Ash teleports to a target within 20 / 45 / 45 / 60 meters. (Current Bladestorm animation for the finisher will apply here)

Below are the changes that push Ash into the niche that he should be a part of. I’ll give my reasons with the changes that I propose.

Assassins Sight:  75 energy key 3: Ash’s sight extends, bolstering the critical chance and movement speed of his allies within 15 / 20 / 22 / 25 meters. Affected allies will gain 15% / 20% / 25% / 50%  increased critical chance and movement speed for 7 / 10 / 12 / 15 seconds.

Design notes:

This will give Ash a stronger “team” feel while in groups, instead of being the frame that everyone associates as either a solo frame, or noob frame.  This also increases his viability at higher level missions. This also places Ash in a group of frames (Rhino and Valkyr ) that help increase party output without stepping on the toes, or out classing them.  After all Ash (imo) has always been the Assassin frame.

Shadow Dance: 75 energy key 4 (or any other name that would fit better): Ash unleashes the power of shadow and ash staggering enemies for a short duration within a radius of 15 meters. Ash becomes untargetable for 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 seconds.

Ash instantly enters a state of intense focus as he searches for targets to assassinate, emitting black smoke and seeing the environment in monochrome. During shadow dance, enemies within 50 meters that are seen near the aiming reticule become tagged with a Death Mark that appears above them, while all marked targets are highlighted in red.

Shadow Clones assault all marked enemies within his ability radius. Each attack inflicts 750 / 1000 / 1500 / 2000 Finisher damage with a 100% Bleed chance. Damage is affected by Power Strength, Steel Charge, and Combo Counter multipliers

Design notes:

This ability becomes two fold. Smoke bomb, as well as a form of AoE attack vs multiple targets. I’ve seen various people play with the idea of a “cool down” to Ash’s Bladestorm, to remove his animations etc.

For me this kind of fixes the problem tying his damage to the duration of his stealth. (Which is why Ash has a short stealth timer). This also helps with Ash’s Survivability by functioning as smoke bomb, but also removing the threat from around Ash with his Clones attacking everything within his “marked” field of vision. In this “mode” Ash will still have his full breath of movement.

The marks don’t stack as they do now, instead they mark once, then a clone attacks at its full strength. This also removes the time needed for multiple marks, as well as the cinematic animations that slow Ash down, but allows his clones to keep them. Once the duration of his stealth ends, the clones will disappear. Clones will still be affected by combo-meter and such.

Anyway these are my current idea’s that might help bring Ash into something more of a team player, yet still keeping his “Fast hitting Assassin” feel.

Hope my fellow Tenno like this!

[LycanPT]

2 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

Did you perhaps not read ? 

As in, stacking classes isn't advised. I never said dps is bad. . . 

Stacking utility classes like frost, nova, ev, etc isn't advised, perhabs the most beneficial stacking class is DPS or tank classes

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

4 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

Did you perhaps not read ? 

As in, stacking classes isn't advised. I never said dps is bad. . . 

It's usually okay to stack debuffers.

[UrielColtan]

On 12/4/2016 at 2:17 PM, Major_Phantom said:

After a decent chunk of playing, I'm starting to enjoy it. I'm going with:

177 dur, 175 eff, 79 range, 170 str.

To save on the need to stack mutliple BS attacks, I use both combo multiplier mods on my melee and rely on sustaining the combo so I only need 1 bs attack + bleed to pull of reliable kills. While not as spammy as before, definitely feels nicer for me.

The only feedback regarding changes I'd suggest is somehow have more visible markers even on darker energy color and fixes to teleport/final teleport not triggering finishers properly on moas and such.

 

18 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 

Don't forget that Blade Storm is affected by the melee combo counter and body count/drifting contact. So the damage goes into oneshot territory pretty quickly, no need to multimark usually.

 

Bladestorm was already effected by those, the problem now is that its slower, kills less and is still non interactivity that needs to go the way of the dodo.

 

 

 

On 12/4/2016 at 2:22 PM, Nazrethim said:

Well, that's where a Smoke Screen enters the scene. SS greatly reduces cost and gives you a brief pause from taking damage while you target new enemies. You can also cast it while rolling or bulletjumping now. You can't use the ol Bladestorm "stand still and cast on enemies" anymore, you need to stay mobile, use your whole kit, etcetera. Whenever I need to do two sweeps I bulletjump>sweep crowd while flying at blinding speeds>bulletjump again>sweep again at blinding speed>release the blade storm. You need to play Ash like ninja, not like a caster.

Which is kinda redundant since you have to keep using extra energy to cast smokescreen for this even more lackluster cutscene move.  You're better off reserving the Smokescreen for melee and killing much more enemies 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Hitsuke]

18 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

I feel the same and with utilising the combo counter you can add more flavour to ash and avoid needing to stack BS when needed. I personally don't use sprint speed mods as teleport gets me around pretty well . 

I just use Armored Agility myself bud. A nice compromise and due to the good base speed of Ash, it gives a nice boost for a dual stat mod. This build probably isn't efficient enough for the PFPs (Press four pros) as it still costs 10.5 for a standard mark and 7 for a stealthed mark, but it's efficient enough for me, and for how often (or not) I use BS.

[UrielColtan]

19 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

nope. he was a swordsman before and after the rework. the changes just show the theme better.

What exact theme change would come from making Ash have a new ult that isn't some glorified nerf oe slide show? Obviously people want changes akin to what happened with Excal.

Edited December 6, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Aatrocy.]

please fix the new blade storm - ash to beginn wasnt a popular pick and with the new one even further. maybe incooperating some of the idea for a faster rerework of the blade storm might hasten it - really cant wait for a fixed blade storm

[DatDarkOne]

41 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Obviously people want changes akin to what happened with Excal.

Are you sure?  I remember them making lots of negative posts when Excal was changed. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by DatDarkOne
corrected for clarity

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

?

Edited December 6, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[UrielColtan]

45 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Are you sure?  I remember them making lots of topics like these when Excal was changed. 

 

This is the feedback topic, made by DEDanielle, obviously they make one for every major change.

I remember more praise topics for Exalted Blade, since Excal was effectively made better with it, especially at the time with the no cost radial Blind spinslash passive. I only recall negative topics about radial blind and javelin being nerfed, but those were individually nerfed overtime in patches before and after Exalted Blade rework's actual drop date.

No one missed super jump, just like no one will really miss time consuming cutscenes that provide little reward when they could actively kill faster themselves in real time. No one will especially miss those repetetive cutscenes when you are encouraged to be invisible while using the move either.

Edited December 6, 2016 by UrielColtan

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, UrielColtan said:

This is the feedback topic, made by DEDanielle, obviously they make one for every major change.

I remember more praise topics for Exalted Blade, since he was effectively made better with it, especially at the time with the no cost radial Blind spinslash passive. I only recall negative topics about radial blind and javelin being nerfed, but those were individually nerfed overtime in patches before and after Exalted Blade rework's actual drop date.

I remember all the negative posts when the change to EB that decreased damage with range and added LOS.  It was similar to what's going on with Ash in the topics.  I just remember more posts of "X frame is useless now" than ones of praise or acceptance.  I'm mostly against nerfs for nerfs sake, but the Ash rework IMO is for the better. 

I should have said negative posts instead of topics in my previous post.  Thanks for the catch. :D

[UrielColtan]

14 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I remember all the negative posts when the change to EB that decreased damage with range and added LOS.  It was similar to what's going on with Ash in the topics.  I just remember more posts of "X frame is useless now" than ones of praise or acceptance.  I'm mostly against nerfs for nerfs sake, but the Ash rework IMO is for the better. 

I should have said negative posts instead of topics in my previous post.  Thanks for the catch. :D

You are talking about a more recent change in a patch, not his actual rework debuting Exalted. You don't seem to get that Excal did not even used to have Exalted Blade at all, which is what people are referring to in the type of change they want with Ash.

I mean, who the hell would be saying they want an ability Ash does not even have, to get nerfed? Because that's effectively what you are conflating. This nerf to Bladestorm may be for the better compared to Exalted Blade's nerf if you actually dislike Ash and prefer Excal. Either way Ash's Bladestorm is less effective and still boring to use in all its slow non-interactivity.

Edited December 6, 2016 by UrielColtan