Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Ion see you tryna make any ideas 

Then not only are you blindly claiming that yours is the only idea with any merit, but you've clearly not even read this thread to consider the ideas that others (yes, including me) have put forward.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

 

 

7 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Then not only are you blindly claiming that yours is the only idea with any merit, but you've clearly not even read this thread to consider the ideas that others (yes, including me) have put forward.

I have just didn't look at names 

Edited March 30, 2017 by (PS4)kingbrown2012

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

If anything I just want a better bladestorm rework 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Ion see you tryna make any ideas 

make range affect the multimark

lower the cost

Make it fast as it was before.

 

There you go. Ideas for a perfect bladestorm as those are the definitive flaws of this change.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Also since my post should be ignored then what bladestorm

There are much more experienced Ash players than me posting in this thread, I wouldn't presume to make that judgement, I'll leave it to people more qualified.

But I don't think copying another warframe's ability is the way to go, more diversity in abilities is better for the game.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

I saw way Better ideas then mine on this thread and the main ones was turning it into an exalted ability and making his agility like a grineer manic

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

I had another rework but ion think it would fit ash

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Someone should also quote all the rework idea and make a new thread with just those reworks posted 

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

There are much more experienced Ash players than me posting in this thread, I wouldn't presume to make that judgement, I'll leave it to people more qualified.

But I don't think copying another warframe's ability is the way to go, more diversity in abilities is better for the game.

A stance ultimate focused on combos and ability synergy instead of straigh invulnerability or E-spam would be very different in application, thus not really a copy. And FYI the "allow ash to use his wristblades as actual weapons" has been around pretty much since Ash exists, well before Excalibur got it's own lightingcarrot.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

A stance ultimate focused on combos and ability synergy instead of straigh invulnerability or E-spam would be very different in application, thus not really a copy. And FYI the "allow ash to use his wristblades as actual weapons" has been around pretty much since Ash exists, well before Excalibur got it's own lightingcarrot.

All the other 'melee' frames except Atlas have stance ultimates (Excalibur, Valkyr, Wukong), maybe it could be a thing but trying to make it unique enough to be interesting could be challenging.

Edited March 31, 2017 by ChuckMaverick

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

All the other 'melee' frames except Atlas have stance ultimates (Excalibur, Valkyr, Wukong), maybe it could be a thing but trying to make it unique enough to be interesting could be challenging.

Look at it this way:

Excalibur is about spamming E

Hysteria is about spamming E

Primal Fury is about spammin E.

All because none of them have anything worth getting from their passsives.

[(PSN)ShuhanX]

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Look at it this way:

Excalibur is about spamming E

Hysteria is about spamming E

Primal Fury is about spammin E.

All because none of them have anything worth getting from their passsives.

Thank you. I really wish people would stop immediately dismissing the idea of Ash having a stance ultimate, and using that logic that doing so makes it a copy/paste of other stance ultimate. It just doesn't quite make sense to me. By that logic, all nukes are the same. All projectile powers are the same. All "mine" powers are the same. All aura abilities are the same. It's illogical to think this. Every frame has a wildly different theme and means of combat. The reason, as you suggested, that all stance ultimates feel similar, is simply because DE dropped the ball on making anything other than spamming E worthwhile. 

The base ideas behind each Warframe stance ultimate is well done. The main issue is that DE does not push the uniqueness of each Warframe enough during the StanceStance and emphasise it through each individual combo and action. Excal as a light sword that fires waves of energy with each swing. Unique to him. Wukong's staff grows in length based in the combo counter. Unique to him. Valkyr becomes a Wolverine-esque berserker impervious to damage. Unique to her. 

The core concepts of each stance are unique in themselves. The issue is that DE neglected to give specific combos unique and useful enough utilities to justify doing anything other than pressing E. Ash has A LOT to work with. Between his teleportation capabilities, his Wrist Blades, his ninja style shuriken, his ability to become invisible, his marking system, his tendency to finisher strikes, his passive, his abilities to potentially control smoke, the potential to throw smoke bombs, and his speed and agility, DE can do a lot with him to make his Stance ultimate unique and something that is more than spamming E. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by (PS4)ShuhanX

[Somethinglurks]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

Thank you. I really wish people would stop immediately dismissing the idea of Ash having a stance ultimate, and using that logic that doing so makes it a copy/paste of other stance ultimate. It just doesn't quite make sense to me. By that logic, all nukes are the same. All projectile powers are the same. All "mine" powers are the same. All aura abilities are the same. It's illogical to think this. Every frame has a wildly different theme and means of combat. The reason, as you suggested, that all stance ultimates feel similar, is simply because DE dropped the ball on making anything other than spamming E worthwhile. 

The base ideas behind each Warframe stance ultimate is well done. The main issue is that DE does not push the uniqueness of each Warframe enough during the StanceStance and emphasise it through each individual combo and action. Excal as a light sword that fires waves of energy with each swing. Unique to him. Wukong's staff grows in length based in the combo counter. Unique to him. Valkyr becomes a Wolverine-esque berserker impervious to damage. Unique to her. 

The core concepts of each stance are unique in themselves. The issue is that DE neglected to give specific combos unique and useful enough utilities to justify doing anything other than pressing E. Ash has A LOT to work with. Between his teleportation capabilities, his Wrist Blades, his ninja style shuriken, his ability to become invisible, his marking system, his tendency to finisher strikes, his passive, his abilities to potentially control smoke, the potential to throw smoke bombs, and his speed and agility, DE can do a lot with him to make his Stance ultimate unique and something that is more than spamming E. 

DING DING DING

[Nazrethim]

7 hours ago, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

-snip-

Correct, hence why my Stance Blade Storm suggestion specifically says;

Basic combo (EEE): Does nothing special.

Combo 1 (EEpauseEE): hit>hit>radial attack with Bleed procs>Open an enemy in front of Ash to Finisher attack.

Combo 2 (Ermb+EE) Ash lunges forward in a puff of smoke, stabbing and inflicting Bleed on enemies in line.

 

Essentially it discourages mindless E-spam and rewards proper combo use, or using it in tandem with Teleport. The combos are also simple and short, in stark contrast to the other Stance Ultimates that have 6 to 8 inputs long combos that are never seen at all.

[RunningTree3]

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Correct, hence why my Stance Blade Storm suggestion specifically says;

Basic combo (EEE): Does nothing special.

Combo 1 (EEpauseEE): hit>hit>radial attack with Bleed procs>Open an enemy in front of Ash to Finisher attack.

Combo 2 (Ermb+EE) Ash lunges forward in a puff of smoke, stabbing and inflicting Bleed on enemies in line.

 

Essentially it discourages mindless E-spam and rewards proper combo use, or using it in tandem with Teleport. The combos are also simple and short, in stark contrast to the other Stance Ultimates that have 6 to 8 inputs long combos that are never seen at all.

You may know this already, but in this case a stand-out stance already in game is Grim Fury (for sparring, with the Unairu polarity where no sparring weapon current has as default).

The E spam move is a one-two punch. But two other combos opens to finisher, while another performs a ragdoll (as does a slide attack).

And I have said this in your other threads, but if the desire is to keep the existing animations, they could be incorporated into the stance combos as finisher moves.

[(PSN)ShuhanX]

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Correct, hence why my Stance Blade Storm suggestion specifically says;

Basic combo (EEE): Does nothing special.

Combo 1 (EEpauseEE): hit>hit>radial attack with Bleed procs>Open an enemy in front of Ash to Finisher attack.

Combo 2 (Ermb+EE) Ash lunges forward in a puff of smoke, stabbing and inflicting Bleed on enemies in line.

 

Essentially it discourages mindless E-spam and rewards proper combo use, or using it in tandem with Teleport. The combos are also simple and short, in stark contrast to the other Stance Ultimates that have 6 to 8 inputs long combos that are never seen at all.

I agree entirely. Combos other than basic E spam should be prioritized utility in such a way that it encourages the usage of them over E spam. But even more than that, entering the Stance should alter and enhance the way his powers operate. Even alter his parkour and mobility, such as giving him a similar function to Limbo's new mechanic for entering the Rift, the giving him the ability to mark with various parkour techniques, which could then interact uniquely with each of his powers. It's truly a shame that the very first Warframe to ever have innate melee weaponry is the last to be considered for a melee stance ultimate.

[Nazrethim]

36 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

You may know this already, but in this case a stand-out stance already in game is Grim Fury (for sparring, with the Unairu polarity where no sparring weapon current has as default).

The E spam move is a one-two punch. But two other combos opens to finisher, while another performs a ragdoll (as does a slide attack).

And I have said this in your other threads, but if the desire is to keep the existing animations, they could be incorporated into the stance combos as finisher moves.

Yeah. I love Grim Fury (except the Backward input, simply because I think it's dumb) and yes, the idea I had was to keep the animations for the Finisher attacks. Nothing goes to waste.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

I agree entirely. Combos other than basic E spam should be prioritized utility in such a way that it encourages the usage of them over E spam. But even more than that, entering the Stance should alter and enhance the way his powers operate. Even alter his parkour and mobility, such as giving him a similar function to Limbo's new mechanic for entering the Rift, the giving him the ability to mark with various parkour techniques, which could then interact uniquely with each of his powers.

I have given much thought to that, I mostly avoid that to prevent the situation where X ability is required for Y to be good, Synergy is good, but not when it feels forced, specially for a combat pragmatist that pretty much would go the "anything goes" fighting style.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

 It's truly a shame that the very first Warframe to ever have innate melee weaponry is the last to be considered for a melee stance ultimate.

True true.

[(PSN)ShuhanX]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Yeah. I love Grim Fury (except the Backward input, simply because I think it's dumb) and yes, the idea I had was to keep the animations for the Finisher attacks. Nothing goes to waste.

I agree

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I have given much thought to that, I mostly avoid that to prevent the situation where X ability is required for Y to be good, Synergy is good, but not when it feels forced, specially for a combat pragmatist that pretty much would go the "anything goes" fighting style.

That is a very good point, however this only becomes an issue when the original power is outshinesd utterly by the Stance enhanced variant. This would not necessarily be the case. With a proper rework, Ash's normal powers would operate on a level that they can be solid, useful and fun powers to use. The Stance variants of said powers would merely provide additional perks. The perks, while useful, should not be so much so, that the normal variants become benign and boring by comparison. Indeed, it is a difficult thing to balance, however I do believe that some sort of interactions with his powers are needed to truly make his Stance ultimate shine in a way that others have not.

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

I agree

That is a very good point, however this only becomes an issue when the original power is outshinesd utterly by the Stance enhanced variant. This would not necessarily be the case. With a proper rework, Ash's normal powers would operate on a level that they can be solid, useful and fun powers to use. The Stance variants of said powers would merely provide additional perks. The perks, while useful, should not be so much so, that the normal variants become benign and boring by comparison. Indeed, it is a difficult thing to balance, however I do believe that some sort of interactions with his powers are needed to truly make his Stance ultimate shine in a way that others have not.

Yup, it's a very delicate thing to balance. As far as my rework idea goes, Shuriken is the only oddball, only interacting with the new passive.

I also came up with a Conclave Augment for Stance Blade Storm:

"Sinister Shadow"

Smoke dashes leave behind an afterimage of Ash that tricks enemies. Lasts 3s

It creates whenever Ash does either the RMB combo or bulletjump/roll/sideroll/backspring (which are replaced by manic-like smoky teleport/dashes) he leaves a frozen image of him, this image is only a visual effect, it doesn't have colision or anything, bullets pass straight trough it with no problem, after the timer ends it dissapears in a subtle puff of smoke, like an pile of ash being swept by the wind.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Yup, it's a very delicate thing to balance. As far as my rework idea goes, Shuriken is the only oddball, only interacting with the new passive.

I also came up with a Conclave Augment for Stance Blade Storm:

"Sinister Shadow"

Smoke dashes leave behind an afterimage of Ash that tricks enemies. Lasts 3s

It creates whenever Ash does either the RMB combo or bulletjump/roll/sideroll/backspring (which are replaced by manic-like smoky teleport/dashes) he leaves a frozen image of him, this image is only a visual effect, it doesn't have colision or anything, bullets pass straight trough it with no problem, after the timer ends it dissapears in a subtle puff of smoke, like an pile of ash being swept by the wind.

DE why you no listen to Nazrethim

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

What if the stance ultimate had a spin attack that causes ash's clones to do bladestorm animations on targets that are nearby..... for a balanced amount of damage 

[GOLANX]

3 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

What if the stance ultimate had a spin attack that causes ash's clones to do bladestorm animations on targets that are nearby..... for a balanced amount of damage 

it certainly would have to cost more, like Excalibur mini radial blind, though that one in particular might take more punishment for its insane damage values, it would have to be at least a 25 energy cost, maybe it can be less if its based on the number of enemies you hit (which would be based on current cost), on the other hand do we really want another Telos Boltace?  imo clones could be spawned by either smokescreen or Shuriken 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Yea I keep forgetting bout the energy cost 

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

What if the stance ultimate had a spin attack that causes ash's clones to do bladestorm animations on targets that are nearby..... for a balanced amount of damage 

Got that covered too :3

'Pause' combo would feature a radial attack that procs a Bleed on targets and ends in a Finisher Opener.

Finisher attacks in Blade Storm mode would cause 3 holographic clones to do a Finisher on nearby enemies. So for each Finisher you finish off 4 enemies. Alternatively, Ash could do a special group finisher attack to do so on multiple enemies.

Damage would be standard Finisher damage (which means a lot of damage) and affected by Combo Counter (making it scale pretty much forever as long as you keep the counter up)

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

12 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Got that covered too :3

'Pause' combo would feature a radial attack that procs a Bleed on targets and ends in a Finisher Opener.

Finisher attacks in Blade Storm mode would cause 3 holographic clones to do a Finisher on nearby enemies. So for each Finisher you finish off 4 enemies. Alternatively, Ash could do a special group finisher attack to do so on multiple enemies.

Damage would be standard Finisher damage (which means a lot of damage) and affected by Combo Counter (making it scale pretty much forever as long as you keep the counter up)

Can you repost the rework again I wanna read all of it