Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Hafilgar]

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

That's not participation, that's just a nuke. The point of Blade Storm is that Ash is the one doing the killin'. DE just failed titanically to make it interactive by refusing to give it an actual rework that removed (or at least made optional) the cutscene. The targeting mode also doesn't make it any more interactive as it is always active, or it isn't, there is zero difference in playstyle if you have it on or off. So they failed there too. It's not really worth the tittle of "Ultimate ability" anymore. BS may as well be 1 or 3 and there would be zero difference.

Well either way it's still a nuke mechanic, but it's not a nuke if it can't instakill higher levels or deal game-breaking damage right? If you look at it that way, most other ults nuke at lower levels.  And since it already scales like you mentioned, I'd say it can at least increase duration for bleed DoT and include a stagger effect duration IF it can't instakill higher levels. At least it still provides some kind of functionaliy

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Still, for the time being, and as a QoL doable change without changing almost anything in it's mechanical workings, Blade Storm could be turned into a 10s duration mode with a flat cost (ie: 100) and for the duration you mark as many enemies as you wish/can (mark cost per enemy equal to zero) and once the timer runs off or you cancel it by pressing BS key again it goes off and attacks all targets. It would be exactly the same as it is now, but with a less stupid high base cost.

Your idea (for the time being) is still a 'nuke' except with a timer involving the same mechanic. It's not much different from mine. I do like your idea of having a base cost though because that way he's not limited to a certain number of enemies to attack whereas  other frames don't have that limitation. The only issue is if they kept the cutscene and you just IDed 20+ enemies, that would be like 10 seconds of you not being able to do anything but just watch. What we're both suggesting is just making minor changes to the mechanic.

And I do agree that spinning the camera isn't as participative, but it still involves more "action" than other ults from frames like rhino, saryn, banshee, ember, etc. I'm not a fan of taking an extra step required to attack an enemy whereas every other frame can do it instantly (unless they incorporate it for every single ult) Besides, you can aim the reticle on BS if you wanted to. It's just player preference to frantically shift the camera everywhere like a seizure because it's faster that way. People are too used to the idea of just using 4 as a fast panic button, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't look like a huge priority to completely change older frame ults into "more participative" skills.

Suggestion:

Honestly, I'd go for a complete overhaul of his ult rather than just putting a bandaid over what it is now. What i suggested earlier was a minor tweak to what it already is. But ULTIMATELY, I think even just having an option to toggle the cutscene on/off would at least make playing Ash more efficient. An animation for a skill is cool in theory but impractical and it becomes redundant watching the same animation set on various enemies. 

[Nazrethim]

24 minutes ago, Hafilgar said:

 

Well either way it's still a nuke mechanic, but it's not a nuke if it can't instakill higher levels or deal game-breaking damage right? If you look at it that way, most other ults nuke at lower levels.  And since it already scales like you mentioned, I'd say it can at least increase duration for bleed DoT and include a stagger effect duration IF it can't instakill higher levels. At least it still provides some kind of functionaliy

Well, Finisher damage ignores Shields (unless +Shield Sortie) and Armor, BS also deals lots of damage amplified by combo counter, and leaves a Bleed proc that also ignores all forms of defense. If you rack a 3x combo counter you can instagib anything up to lvl 70s when the heavier units twich for a second or two before the bleeds gets the better of them. The CC functionality comes with multiple marks, as the enemy will be briefly stunned while the holographic clones finish off the remaining marks. Sadly that means that by the time you finish only 2-3 enemies will be CC'ed for 2s with the rest either dead or shooting you.

Quote

Your idea (for the time being) is still a 'nuke' except with a timer involving the same mechanic. It's not much different from mine. I do like your idea of having a base cost though because that way he's not limited to a certain number of enemies to attack whereas  other frames don't have that limitation. The only issue is if they kept the cutscene and you just IDed 20+ enemies, that would be like 10 seconds of you not being able to do anything but just watch. What we're both suggesting is just making minor changes to the mechanic.

That's why I said QoL change to adress the ludicrous energy drain. It's just that, a minor fix to an issue that shouldn't even have happened in the first place.

Quote

And I do agree that spinning the camera isn't as participative, but it still involves more "action" than other ults from frames like rhino, saryn, banshee, ember, etc. I'm not a fan of taking an extra step required to attack an enemy whereas every other frame can do it instantly (unless they incorporate it for every single ult) Besides, you can aim the reticle on BS if you wanted to. It's just player preference to frantically shift the camera everywhere like a seizure because it's faster that way. People are too used to the idea of just using 4 as a fast panic button, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't look like a huge priority to completely change older frame ults into "more participative" skills.

Suggestion:

Honestly, I'd go for a complete overhaul of his ult rather than just putting a bandaid over what it is now. What i suggested earlier was a minor tweak to what it already is. But ULTIMATELY, I think even just having an option to toggle the cutscene on/off would at least make playing Ash more efficient. An animation for a skill is cool in theory but impractical and it becomes redundant watching the same animation set on various enemies. 

We are on the same boat here. Hell, you can read the rework I keep throwing around that basically keeps the cutscene but makes it optional, keeps the marking mechanic DE gave us  and pretty much solves every single issue I could pin point about the frame, both current issues and past issues. You can read it on page 100 of this thread, it's on the comment with a Spoiler, above a FateZero.gif

There are also other threads that offer alternatives well thought out.

Our main problem now is convincing DE to give a s**t about Ash for once.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Nazrethim

[-Defeater-]

When are we going to be able to skip the animation of bladestorm? I mean surely DE wouldnt create a mega thread on it and then just ignore the 100 pages of "why do we still need to look at the cutscene", right? Or is ash pretty much dead now due to the fact that they already released his prime version and will pretty much never be revisited again.

[-NEP-hypernepmension]

I was just wondering if DE already said something about the Ash changes. Did they mention anything? If not I assume they must be happy with what he is now...

[Nazrethim]

 

*in a calm and collected voice* They haven't answered anything since the revisit. They may be happy, we are not. I guess it's a matter of time until they give him a proper rework, right now they must be busy with Oberon. Meanwhile, the ninjas can only wait, and hope.

*solemn naga drum*

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 minute ago, LightningAWG said:

I was just wondering if DE already said something about the Ash changes. Did they mention anything? If not I assume they must be happy with what he is now...

To be honest, i was very upset and against the nerf from the first time i heard about it here on the forum.

And got really pissed off after getting it on console

BUT, after playing with ASH, i found it better and even a more assassin frame, better than B4

Now i use it for extremely hard sorties

You just need to know how to really play it (by the way, i don't use smoke screen, it has less than 1 sec duration)

I found a better way to deal with the nerf, a way that is easier than before.

So honestly, i wish they just keep it as it is now

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Honestly. Im okay with his changes. Only thing im not okay with is enemies that gain additional marks also gains additional energy cost. Thats not something thats sitting great on me.

[Samotte]

Ash has been nerfed? If you're talking about the ult change, it has not been nerfed, it is now what it should have been since the release of the warframe. Why do you think it's a nerf? (Let's be constructive)

[(PSN)HeadHuntingPanda]

its a nerf because its the same vomit cam and it cost more energy to use the ult which is weaker... before ash use to bladestorm till  the target dies

if they really reworked Ash they would change his 4 into something like shadow clones doing bladestorm for him at the cost of 100 energy instead of him being in Vomit CaM 2.0

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, Samotte said:

Ash has been nerfed? If you're talking about the ult change, it has not been nerfed, it is now what it should have been since the release of the warframe. Why do you think it's a nerf? (Let's be constructive)

It's energy cost went trough the roof? It didn't really adress ANY issue other than P42W? It isn't interactive at all?

 

Blade Storm should have been a stance ultimate, not...this thing.

[Nazrethim]

56 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

You just need to know how to really play it (by the way, i don't use smoke screen, it has less than 1 sec duration)

I found a better way to deal with the nerf, a way that is easier than before.

So honestly, i wish they just keep it as it is now

That is.. using the same zero duration build pre-revisit? what changed? only one thing: you now need to spin the camera like you're having a seizure, and that you either need zenurik/energize or go full efficiency to prevent BS from draining you dry.

They need to give him an actual rework that fixes all issues.

This change was a "scr*w you Ash" from DE. They spent a whole year for that sh*tty change, meanwhile Limbo got a kicarse revisit in what? a third of that time?

[Samotte]

53 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

It's energy cost went trough the roof? It didn't really adress ANY issue other than P42W? It isn't interactive at all?

 

Blade Storm should have been a stance ultimate, not...this thing.

That's true with this ult you need a lot of energy. On my ash I put fleeting expertise and primed continuity, so I have duration for my smoke screen and my shurikens (I use the mod Seeking shuriken so I need duration), so I'm not in trouble for my ult. What do you think they should do? put duration on the ultimate? I don't really know what they should do for Ash, without creating more problems... 

But I don't get what you mean with "stance ultimate"?

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 

They may be happy, we are not. 

They are happy with rework, We are happy with rework. Not much else needs to be said

[Coldie93]

I like the rework Ash too.  It makes you actually use his other skills than just spamming 4

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Samotte said:

That's true with this ult you need a lot of energy. On my ash I put fleeting expertise and primed continuity, so I have duration for my smoke screen and my shurikens (I use the mod Seeking shuriken so I need duration), so I'm not in trouble for my ult. What do you think they should do? put duration on the ultimate? I don't really know what they should do for Ash, without creating more problems... 

Well, for starters, making current incarnation a duration based thing that costs base 100 energy to activate, and goes off when turned off or timer ends, but making marking cost no additional energy, would be a start.

2 hours ago, Samotte said:

But I don't get what you mean with "stance ultimate"?

Similar to Hysteria, Exalted Blade, Primal Fury. However implemented differently to make it stand out and not be as mindlessly spammy with the melee key. Rather relying on combos and augmenting his other abilities. Duration based preferably.

[LuckyCharm]

Im guessing most of you have now moved on to use limbo. 

That being said.. i never used ash much before his rework.. but i like him a bit more now. Being able to smokebomb midair more than made up for the p4towin that he had. Because plenty of frames already do that. Now he can pick priority targets without all strikes going to things like infested runners. 

[-Defeater-]

I tried making a thread about it the other day and it got moved to the rework mega thread because i mentioned the rework mega thread -_-

and yea, theyve said nothing about the "rework". Ive stopped playing him since, something needed to be done about his 4 but not this. Kinda sad, but will be funny to see him at the bottom of the "most used frames" list right next to Zephyr if they dont do anything with him. So many other frames can do the same job better, idk what they were thinking 

[-Defeater-]

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

They are happy with rework, We are happy with rework. Not much else needs to be said

No one is really that happy with the rework. A lot of people who didnt like his long 4 nuke before the rework (me included) dont even like it. On top of it you can still do the same thing with it buy just spinning the camera around if you really wanted to. People wanted to see ash become the bad &#! ninja he deserves to be, instead hes a half baked loki with almost no advantages over any other frame. Hell octavia is a better assassin than he is with indefinite invis and shes a bard....

[Djego27]

On 9.4.2017 at 11:54 AM, (Xbox One)Oussii said:

To be honest, i was very upset and against the nerf from the first time i heard about it here on the forum.

And got really pissed off after getting it on console

BUT, after playing with ASH, i found it better and even a more assassin frame, better than B4

Now i use it for extremely hard sorties

You just need to know how to really play it (by the way, i don't use smoke screen, it has less than 1 sec duration)

I found a better way to deal with the nerf, a way that is easier than before.

So honestly, i wish they just keep it as it is now

Ash was already incredible strong before the changes in sortis. If you play him with 1s duration on smoke screen, than that is your choice, even while smoke screen and a AOE melee like the Orthos prime is plenty to do 60% of the team dps while only using your 4 twice to avoid lethal damage, since your melee weapon similar to back in the days of Drako is actually quicker then your 4 to kill stuff for the most part, even at sorti levels(throw in the augment for his one and all this extra armor sortis are no challenge as well). This is just how strong stealth buffed melee can be and how bad literally every loki player that shows up without pressing 4 once or not using melee really is.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Djego27

[Djego27]

On 9.4.2017 at 9:43 PM, -Defeater- said:

I tried making a thread about it the other day and it got moved to the rework mega thread because i mentioned the rework mega thread -_-

and yea, theyve said nothing about the "rework". Ive stopped playing him since, something needed to be done about his 4 but not this. Kinda sad, but will be funny to see him at the bottom of the "most used frames" list right next to Zephyr if they dont do anything with him. So many other frames can do the same job better, idk what they were thinking 

Set you mouse to low sensitivity, use a big mouse pad and just move it all over the place for halve a second. Bladestorm nearly works like it did before with that, without the ability to kill stuff out of line of sight. Other than that Ash is very good, beside of it's 1 that needs a augment to scale(then again it does scale to any level with that), invisibility is broken good and instant guaranteed kills no matter of level, armor, HP, resistances is also borderline OP if you use a CL dagger and Teleport(just stand in front solo at L150 against a toxic ancient with Saryn or a Arson Eximus with Ember and you will see my point, because this units have a ridiculous defence against all your scaling damage).

[-Defeater-]

6 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Set you mouse to low sensitivity, use a big mouse pad and just move it all over the place for halve a second. Bladestorm nearly works like it did before with that, without the ability to kill stuff out of line of sight. Other than that Ash is very good, beside of it's 1 that needs a augment to scale(then again it does scale to any level with that), invisibility is broken good and instant guaranteed kills no matter of level, armor, HP, resistances is also borderline OP if you use a CL dagger and Teleport(just stand in front solo at L150 against a toxic ancient with Saryn or a Arson Eximus with Ember and you will see my point, because this units have a ridiculous defence against all your scaling damage).

my point is you shouldnt be able to nuke a room by spinning like a mad man, it doesnt make sense to play ash for that since limbo, banshee, etc can already do that. im saying his 4 needs a complete rework or at the very least to be able to skip the animation for it. Id use the 4 to take out small groups  of enemies if it meant that i didnt have to look at the stupid out of sync animations for all the clones. hed be actually enjoyable to play if it was a move you could set and forget and then work on different enemies with

 

[Djego27]

While I agree that it does not make much sense as AOE nuke it is still a very strong scaling fame without even pressing 4. 

The animation on his 4 is kind of a trade off for damage(that is still sufficient to take out targets at sorti levels) and the ability to escape death by it. What you describe is more or less Ember, with a passive AOE damage(negotiable, even if it is one of the strongest scaling 4 in the game for raw damage if you stack power strength and use accerlerant) and CC(actually quite good at any level, assuming 200% ish power strength in combination with a fire status weapon you will revive that tank frames in sortis instead the other way around) while using accelerant to give your weapons incredible punch and weapons to negate certain mechanics like armor scaling(what ash comes with out of the box).

For me Ash was and still is enjoyable to play, because armor ignore is incredible powerful and outside of defending other people he is the much more powerful stealth frame then Loki because he is pre-emptive, while what you do with Loki is reacting to situations that you can not prevent with your abilities or weapons(like mass switch teleporting stuff out of a snow globe a thigh levels if things go wrong on the Banshee player end). Keep in mind that this is still not weak, since I could in the original Phoenix interception(L150 grenier heavy blade only interception) prevent any enemy from taking points or get to close to the team in the snow globe in the middle of the map by switch teleporting them to spots where they will be no problem.

From my pov, DE should have given the armor strip ability build into his one(make a augment a glaive like bounce between targets), his 2 should have 1-2 more seconds base duration and the augment should have useful range(like 20m at base) and the augment for Teleport should give all weapons CL ability what means you can again use a melee weapon you really like instead to being forced to using a dagger.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Djego27

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

12 hours ago, Samotte said:

Ash has been nerfed? If you're talking about the ult change, it has not been nerfed, it is now what it should have been since the release of the warframe. Why do you think it's a nerf? (Let's be constructive)

Extremely slow semi potent damage that is bound to ridiculous preperation.

Is that even a question?

[malekas]

Ash was one of those frames that had a good kit, but had one ability that was so OP that no one even looked at the rest of his kit. 

 

Try increasing his duration, keeping his range at 100%, and using Fatal Teleport. You can still mass murder very easily, it just takes more than one button now.

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

The problem with ash is that his 4 is insanely boring. How about no cutscenes? Give him some interactivity.