Ember and Mirage, the fun-killing frames

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, PoobahTheGrand said:

Spilling table salt is bad luck

I know right?

All of these people seeing their mindless press 4 to win/press 4 to not have to play frames like Ash being brought down into sensible, non-broken territory, and their response is always throwing all this salt around at the mere thought of something similar happening to the rest of them.

Reworks and adjustments will always be a part of these types of games folks. Better get used to it.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Jackviator

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 minute ago, Jackviator said:

I know right?

All of these people seeing their mindless press 4 to win/press 4 to not have to play frames like Ash being brought down into sensible, non-broken territory, and their response is always throwing all this salt around at the mere thought of something similar happening to the rest of them.

Reworks and adjustments will always be a part of these types of games folks. Better get used to it.

Its not the thought of balancing a frame that scares people, its the thought of failing to balance a frame correctly, look at ash for example, everybody wanted ash's 4 to change(even ash mains like me).but DE failed to fix bladestorm since 1. It's drains all your energy when you try to mark 5-6 enemies 2. Players wanted bladestorm to be interactive, which DE failed again since.players are forced to watch ash do all the work and again players are punished for marking to many enemies since your going to watch ash bladestorm all the enemies one-by-one. The point is DE has been misunderstanding the reason players dislike some ults so they make unnecessary changes rather then actually balancing it.

[Jackviator]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

The point is DE has been misunderstanding the reason players dislike some ults so they make unnecessary changes rather then actually balancing it.

I get that, and while they have certainly made some mistakes when reworking in the past (looking at you, Mag) you also have to take into account that they've done some fantastic reworks/tweaks in the past as well.

Frost, Rhino and Excalibur's reworks were all fantastic, Saryn's was pretty good/fixed her press 4 to win nature, Volt's was pretty excellent (though I wish they would tone down the energy drain when carrying his riot shield) and while Vauban's 1 and 3 need some more work his 2 is a lot more versatile than it was.

Personally, while I agree it would have indeed been better to simply send out Ash's shadow clones to do the dirty work and let you remain in control, I still believe it's better than it initially was. You have more agency in who you assassinate and lets you pick high-priority targets out of crowds, instead of having no control over who gets hidden blades in the face.

 

[Soketsu]

35 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Personally, while I agree it would have indeed been better to simply send out Ash's shadow clones to do the dirty work and let you remain in control, I still believe it's better than it initially was. You have more agency in who you assassinate and lets you pick high-priority targets out of crowds, instead of having no control over who gets hidden blades in the face.

Yeah and now the time you mark a target, this one get killed by shot from your mate, good job ash !

[Serafim_94]

Ember is trash damage dealer. On low levels absolutely any frame is brainless. I bet you also have maxed out mods and formas in your Ember. And then complain how easy it is to kill lvl5 enemies. Way to go.

The only real merit of how functional something is are Sorties at the moment. Ash was good becouse he was able to kill enemies there. Also, mind you, his rework didn't touch his damage - just application of it. Now he will just clear out high-priority targets instead of entire maps. Ironically, Saryn can still wipe levels.

Ember is utterly disfunctional in Sorties. /thread

And in Mirage-Simulor combo it's Simulor that is problem.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Jackviator]

46 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

The only real merit of how functional something is are Sorties at the moment.

That's kinda not really true though.

Sorties only make up one tiny portion of the game that can only be played once a day anyway. As I have already noted, the solar system makes up the majority of all gameplay for most people on a daily basis, so level 50ish is the highest you'll see in most cases, which Ember can still function at, if at a slightly lower efficiency.

[Serafim_94]

7 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

That's kinda not really true though.

Sorties only make up one tiny portion of the game that can only be played once a day anyway. As I have already noted, the solar system makes up the majority of all gameplay for most people on a daily basis, so level 50ish is the highest you'll see in most cases, which Ember can still function at, if at a slightly lower efficiency.

They are the only challenging content, where being "weak" or "strong" holds any meaning. Everything in star chart (except for raids I guess, but not that many people run them) can be done with absolutely whatever and this whatever will be overpowered AF as long as there are maxed mods in it. Ever seen what kind of damage MK-1 weapons can do?

 

Hell, I can tinker with my Hydroid for a bit, and then go on wiping spree all around solar system with his skills alone. Becouse I'm one of those select few idiots who formaed and potatoed Hydroid. Would you argue he also should be nerfed?

Edit: god @(*()$ damn it, those typos :P

Edited November 29, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Jackviator]

1 hour ago, Serafim_94 said:

They are the only challenging content, where being "weak" or "strong" holds any meaning. Everything in star chart (except for raids I guess, but not that many people run them) can be done with absolutely whatever and this whatever will be overpowered AF as long as there are maxed mods in it. Ever seen what kind of damage MK-1 weapons can do?

 

Hell, I can tinker with my Hydroid for a bit, and then go on wiping spree all around solar system with his skills alone. Becouse I'm one of those select few idiots who formaed and potatoed Hydroid. Would you argue he also should be nerfed?

Edit: god @(*()$ damn it, those typos :P

At least Hydroid requires some input on your part. Weapons require you to at least aim, put in a tiny bit of mental effort.

I'd like to make it clear, my goal is not just to see these frames/weapons nerfed, but reworked so they both require a bit of effort/input from the wielder, a bit more forethought/strategy, and are overall a bit less... efficient, shall we say. AKA it would take more than a femtosecond and a single button press to clear a room of enemies.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

There is something wrong with exterminate missions. There is no point to them whatsoever. They are a waste of time.

And damage abilities v.s. crowd control abilities. Wow, we love making entire crowds of enemies stand still all day long, but kill something? You had the audacity to actually try to kill something with a warframe power? Shameful.

Area of effect needs to be replaced with skillful game play in all of warframe, and it needs to be a give and take for mirages dopplegangers and Embers ult, not just nerf mirages weapon damage/usage by x and take away y functionality from Embers Wof.

[NeonNemesis]

15 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Sorties can be quite easily adjusted to compensate. The levels could be lowered to something much more in line with the star chart if a reasonable balance paradigm made level 100 content unplayable. And it's not like changing the levels of sorties is a huge undertaking by the dev team; it's just changing a few numbers in a spreadsheet. 

Tell me, honestly, but without trying to imagine a perfect scenario where things would be fixed like they should, just be realistic for this answer, do you truly believe that DE would just simply nerf the frames and then adjust the enemies to match how they were nerfed?

Because the only thing I'm seeing is us ending up wth super low frames and enemies curbstomping us.

This type of adjustment my friend can only, but only be asked after DE solves the scaling issue on enemies, you ask them before that and you'll end up with something like the Ash rework or the Sorties rewards were none of the problems are solved and new ones are thrown into the mix.

[Thebel]

4 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

There is something wrong with exterminate missions. There is no point to them whatsoever. They are a waste of time.

And damage abilities v.s. crowd control abilities. Wow, we love making entire crowds of enemies stand still all day long, but kill something? You had the audacity to actually try to kill something with a warframe power? Shameful.

Area of effect needs to be replaced with skillful game play in all of warframe, and it needs to be a give and take for mirages dopplegangers and Embers ult, not just nerf mirages weapon damage/usage by x and take away y functionality from Embers Wof.

The important part, most mission types are boring as hell, the only ones I find fun at this point are Survivals, def missions, and sometimes spy. All the other missions are pointlessly short and boring that I feel like I have to use my Ignis or Ember to get it over with to go do something fun. In a horde based game what's the fun in killing a couple hundred in one mission vs killing thousands in another one which constantly ramps up in difficulty.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Thebel

[Toran]

How many witches you guys need to hunt, till you're satisfied?

And don't gimme that "...but they take away ALL the fun!" as if you face em in every damn round you play.

I plainly hate nerfs and how DE satisfies every crier. Only a very few "reworks" are good ones, the rest is just half-hearted and usually a disappointment to the guys who actually play those frames.

Do you really want Warframe to turn to one homogen mess where warframe abilities hardly count anymore and only your weapon loadouts make the difference?

And why you guys only focus on one or two frames once the last witch has turned to Ash? Why don't give us your whole black list, so we can heap up one big stake and burn em all at once?

Why not abandon all abilities and make this a Counter-Strike in space?

 

 

[Siekier]

I'll go ahead an ctrl c ctrl v my response from another thread.

 

I think Ember is in a good place and there's not much reason for changing / reworking her other than for the sake of doing so.

With Accelerant she already has more synergy than many other frames, so I don't think she needs any additional effects. The only thing that could use a change is her passive, which is very situational and mostly useless.

 

Now, before someone starts this "omg nerf Ember she's stealing my kills" thing, let me explain why i think her WoF is fine.

Her damage falls off quickly due to armor scaling of enemies, so she's mostly useful against Infested (which is still somewhat limited by Ancient Healer aura) and decent against Corpus (with the exception of Techs because of -50% damage penalty to Proto shields) and Grineer (bonus against cloned flesh is offset by armor scaling).

 

What this means is Ember is good for quickly clearing masses of low to medium level enemies and that's about it. Which makes her fantastic for quickly breezing through alerts and invasions, and I think vast majority of players would agree that they want to complete invasions asap (because doing the same mission 3 times in a row isn't a ton of fun, it feels tedious). Myself I couldn't care less if I get 0 kills during an invasion exterminate as long as we get through the mission quickly.

At higher levels the situation changes drastically, as with extreme amounts of armor certain enemies have WoF starts to only tickle them (even with Accelerant). This is where it turns out Ember can do different things than just wipe out low lvl enemies.

She can CC enemis with the use of Firequake augment, as well as buffing allies with Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy. Her Fireblast ability can also provide some CC.

 

That being said, I don't see a reason to change a frame that can already fill different roles and is not overpowered in any way.

Ember is in a great spot, she's a balanced frame. Don't ruin it.

[WhyNotBro]

Let's get rid of every AoE ability, along with AoE weapons. Warframe is not a horde fast-pace game. Why would we need an option to clear the room in emergency case, indeed.
 

[BornWithTeeth]

On 11/28/2016 at 11:03 PM, Jackviator said:

For Mirage, I've seen and liked the suggestion that each Simulor "blorp" could "belong" to each light-specter. They couldn't just instantly combine, like they do now. In addition, the radius of the explosion of the Simulor itself's blasts, as well as other AOE-based weapons, could be reduced by 25-50% when caused by her specters so as not make to them as absurdly broken as they are now.

As for Ember, there are plenty of rework suggestions to read, but I saw and liked the idea of something that could lock down an area temporarily and truly set the world (terrain) on fire, similar to how Ignis units can set portions of the terrain on fire that damage Warframes. This way, enemies that step on them would be damaged and stunned while on the burning terrain, but it wouldn't just be a death-aura around Ember at all times while channeling. It would also give her some much-needed CC, which she lacks without the aug for her 4. Her 3 could also change to something more useful as well to compensate for her 4 being essentially a better version of it, perhaps some damage-mitigation skill like she had in the old days.

_{At high levels and in Sortie, Ember with her Augmented World on Fire isn't for damage, she's the crowd control goddess. What you do is, you load up Ember with a close range F- You Cannon like the Vaykor Hek or Sancti Tigris, and go into a level 100 Grineer Interception. Beyonce [Ember] says, if you like [the control point], then you shoulda put a ring [of fire] on it. For the sake of efficiency, she needs decent Duration, which means that the ring sticks around for roughly thirty seconds, and that's thirty seconds in which you can tap Accelerant if you're getting crowded, to briefly stun the attackers and also make them take hella more damage for getting inside the ring with you. On the move, you run over knocking doodz down and headshotting them before they can get back on their feet. The firestorm disrupts enemies, does a little damage, and finishes off the ones who survive the first shot.}

 

_{She has better synergy between her abilities than a lot of the other 'frames in the game, to be honest.}

 

_{Otherwise, I would almost never actually bring her into an open low level Exterminate, because I know that she out-deeps almost everyone with a max range max damage build.}

 

_{Anyway, keeping on-topic for the thread....I would be pretty annoyed if a rework to Ember made her no longer capable of fulfilling her true role in high level content, which is chokepoint control, wide area enemy disruption/CC, and killing very weak targets or targets which have been weakened through other attacks. In other words, she simply makes the battlefield way more dangerous for enemies.}
                         

_{If a rework made her require active input in order to do this, then I'd be fine with it.....but that is already kinda the case. Ember can take control of areas very effectively in high levels, but you can't do it just by pressing 4 and idling. You need to use Firequake, use World on Fire in conjunction with high damage per shot weapons, and use Accelerant and Fire Blast to control specific chokepoints like doorways. She's plenty tactical. She's just overkill for low level content. You know, like everything else.}

 

 

tl;dr,

      Ember is wildly overqualified for raw DPS on low level maps, but so is every 'frame with an AoE power. Her real area of expertise is using her Augmented abilities in synergy on high level missions for very effective area control. I'd be fine with a rework of Ember if, and only if! That rework explicitly took her from being officially a damage dealer to an area controller, and adapted her abilities accordingly. A straight nerf of her abilities is not remotely called for, because otherwise she's in a very good place right now, roughly equivalent to Mesa in terms of synergy in her abilities and deployment.

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[Blacque]

Man did I join the wrong post!  I was here about to suggest a 'buff' to Ember.  I won't be dismissive toward any of the points of the OP.  I think a lot of the concerns are very low to mid tier centric.  Those things flesh themselves out once players get into their 16+ area of mastery rank I guess?  Or when they forma stomp their gear?  Either way the 50+ enemy argument is very much a relevant factor and I don't think it should be dismissed since in most cases players that exist in Warframe for over a year tend to find more enjoyment out of the endless runs than simple exterminate.  I could be wrong, feel free to cite me on that!  I'd love to know.  As it stands when you finally get a lot of forma into your baby frame, weapons you feel gutsy and want to see how far you can go! 

With that out of the way I think that Ember IS in a good place for the most part.  Then it dawned on me.  This of course being the realm of I'd rather buff than nerf I figured "Everything burns!"  I had a list of ability tweaks a while back I was working on with tenno specific damage types.  I addressed Ember having an Over Heat/Super Heat passive that actually converted damage types to heat due to the atmosphere around her being well super heated.  The idea of ammo exploding, armor melting etc.  Then as I was running about making Grineer crispy I thought.  WOULDN'T IT BE COOL!  If Warframes had a Focus ability.

 

HERE ME OUT!  Not like our current Focus, but an ability that is the sum of all parts.  A high reward, high risk skill, that actually scales the longer it's in use?  This is dream time so bear with me, not at all well thought out, but check it!

Ember plants herself, and just let's loose!  Ground turns to magma, walls ignite in a vicinity around herself and armor melts, guns explode!  She uses any of her abilities after this 'prep time' and it scales the longer it's in use.  So like if you press one?  Under Super Heat instead of a fireball she extends her hand and channels a beam of fire that just slams into enemies like Madurai's death beam of much hot, and the longer it's held the hotter, hotter, and hotter it gets before POP.  Lvl 135? Pfft lvl toast!

 

Naturally this comes with its risk because y'know being forced to be stationary but I've been in love with tenno themed damage types that step outside of the standard, ice, toxic, heat, electric for a while.  Something instrinically THEM that the stupid baddies can't just use against us in some form or another.  We're close with operators and their force punching stuff, but the frames need more!

 

Ultimately my entire post falls to ruin the moment DE decides to adjust scaling.  I think I do agree that scaling it a bit of a chore.  How about a Dark Side of the Star Chart, where the enemies are just HUGE right out of the gate.  As oppose to annoying nightmare buffs, make the star chart a high end area for people who want to re-explore it, re-run it for extra goodies.

 

Or y'know adjust scaling...  Jeeze scaling is bad.  Every suggestion kind of falls apart the moment that scaling is done huh.  So now I'm forced to ask, what exactly does Enemy Scaling mean, and how would they adjust it practically?  I get the idea that the armor/health exceeds X values over time.  How would it be fixed practically?  Any ideas?

[Serafim_94]

14 hours ago, Jackviator said:

At least Hydroid requires some input on your part. Weapons require you to at least aim, put in a tiny bit of mental effort.

I'd like to make it clear, my goal is not just to see these frames/weapons nerfed, but reworked so they both require a bit of effort/input from the wielder, a bit more forethought/strategy, and are overall a bit less... efficient, shall we say. AKA it would take more than a femtosecond and a single button press to clear a room of enemies.

I can definetely get behind rework of Ember, but she should emerge as functional damage dealer from it, with increased synergy between skills. Something similar to Saryn rework. Which, given DE record, has only 50% chance of happening. With another 50% being probability of Ember becoming even more trash than she is now, like what happened to Mag.

So, as you can guess, I'm not exacty thrilled with perspective.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Tatersail]

Almost every frame can perform like Ember/Equinox etc   most can out-range her!

eg. If you want to troll an ember on a low level exterm, Bring a max range rhino, parkour next to ember mashing 4, you will Rob every kill with rhinos superior range!

Mirage synoid sim is a synoid sim issue

Trying to fix aoe frames now would involve a massive sequential nerf down each flavor of the month AOE till nothing remains.

In some ways DE are slowly doing this,  Excal RJ now needs LOS, Mag shield Pol is Gone, Ash Blade-storm is gone, Volts 4 is mainly CC now, Saryn miasma has less up front punch etc. It just takes time to "tweak" frames without destroying all the current game in a single chop!

 

The solution is:

A - play under level 50 missions solo!

B - Stop making stupid posts on the forum!

 

 

 

 

Alot of people don't really know how to play ember, and the posts here only enforce that.   She has so much CC in the default frame, WOF has a chance to Proc fire (6 seconds of CC) so power Str ember has passive CC on everything she does. then all her skills CC!

Accelerant, is an Instant, Low cost, recast-able,  AOE Stun CC that penetrates walls

Her Fireblast has a knockdown and 100% Proc chance so a knockdown and 6 seconds of panic Fire burning CC!  this also makes it do 350% additional damage making it a very high damage skill!

In many ways firequake makes no sense to me, taking it off and equipping more power STR gives more CC than using it!

 

Ember is also fully sortie capable as primary DPS, she just gets destroyed by Grineer armor requiring full CP group.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Tatersail

[Thebel]

42 minutes ago, Tatersail said:

In many ways firequake makes no sense to me, taking it off and equipping more power STR gives more CC than using it!

The easy answer is I use overextended and as a result only have 135% str so it lets me still have 100% chance of ccing something + ground finisher.

And the other side being you need a ton of str to get even a 90% status chance (258% str) when you're going for a cc build like me, str kinda gets thrown out the window.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Thebel

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, Siekier said:

and I think vast majority of players would agree that they want to complete invasions asap (because doing the same mission 3 times in a row isn't a ton of fun, it feels tedious).

vvv

On 11/28/2016 at 3:20 PM, Jackviator said:

"But things like having to do Invasions 3 times are just annoying to get through anyway, why not speed it up?"

That just points to Invasions needing to be reworked to be more enjoyable, not that it's fine to keep the frames as-is.

 

[Siekier]

14 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

"But things like having to do Invasions 3 times are just annoying to get through anyway, why not speed it up?"

That just points to Invasions needing to be reworked to be more enjoyable, not that it's fine to keep the frames as-is.

Except that I highly daubt that we'll see  some sort of invasion rework anytime soon.

Remember how long it took for the devs to simply reduce the requirement of completing invasion mission 3 times instead of 5? That was a simple change, and it still took many months of waiting.

 

Nerfing another frame is just another band aid, it doesn't solve any fundamental problems.

I won't get into details about Mirage, so let's just stay with Ember.

So, let's say that you accomplish your goal and Ember gets hit with a nerf hammer. Wohoo, no more easy killing low level enemies, amazing. Problem solved?

No, all that happens is a frame gets nerfed, people who use it get angry or just switch to another frame with similar capabilities.

Ember Prime isn't some sort of god frame, low level enemies can be killed just as well in a massive AoE by using Rhino, Equinox, Frost, even Oberon.

Hell, even Limbo can wipe out low level enemies using his Cataclysm. Does that means all those frames have to be nerfed next?

 

It doesn't even have to be AoE damage frame. Volt or Zephyr can kill enemies several rooms ahead of you and maybe you won't even get a single kill because of that. Should they be nerfed? Remove their Speed / Jetstream?

 

Ember is fine. I enjoy using her and I'm not upset when someone else in my team is using her, even when I have some other frame that can't compete with her in terms of killing power (in low level missions mind you).

Mirage is a different story, though it's mostly because of her interaction with certain weapons.

[(XBOX)x Varda x]

On 28/11/2016 at 9:38 PM, ChasePanic said:

Ember doesn't bother me too much, at least I haven't encountered many bad ones. But yes Simulor Mirage is a headache. Especially since they apparently don't know how to explode their blorps so you're left unable to pick up power cells. *Shudder*

Simulor blorps don't pick up power cells any more. At least they didn't when I ran Hieracon last week on Xbox.

[Jackviator]

4 hours ago, Siekier said:

Ember Prime isn't some sort of god frame, low level enemies can be killed just as well in a massive AoE by using Rhino, Equinox, Frost, even Oberon.

Well at the very least Equinox and Oberon are designed with dealing damage in mind, BUT without an immediate death aura at all times around them, which is OK in my eyes.

As for the other 2, the builds I personally have seen for damage-Rhino didn't do too well past Venus, maybe Jupiter at most, and as for Frost, I personally believe that yeah, his 4 does too much at once, as I mentioned in a previous post. (And this is coming from someone who's mained Frost for about 800 hours now). Yes, I would accept if his 4 didn't do damage, because it strips enemy armor and CCs at the same time.

4 hours ago, Siekier said:

It doesn't even have to be AoE damage frame. Volt or Zephyr can kill enemies several rooms ahead of you and maybe you won't even get a single kill because of that. Should they be nerfed? Remove their Speed / Jetstream?

Those 2 buff the entire squad's speed. If you keep up you can easily get your share of the fun, but if you merely keep up with an Ember you can't, as everything around you is immolated before you can take aim. You have to try to be faster than the player playing her and hope for the best.

'Sides, my main qualm with Ember isn't that she can dish out damage, it's mainly how easy and brainless her 4 is. You have a bit of energy, press 4 and run. That's it. At least the others have to set themselves up around a group of enemies first. They take a basic amount of forethought, which is more than can be said for Ember.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Jackviator

[Death_Master_]

On 29.11.2016 at 0:20 AM, Jackviator said:

Time for the daily thread on why Ember's 4 (World on Fire) is broken and how Mirage's 1 (Hall of Mirrors) interacts with certain weapons (like our favorite little black hole launcher, the Synoid Simulor) is extremely overpowered/wasn't really thought through all that well.

So, I'll be blunt; Ember and Mirage are the frames you pick when you don't want to have to actually play the game. Whoever is using them reduces the game into essentially a walking-simulator for both them and everyone who has the misfortune of being in the same squad as the player in question. This is especially true on Exterminate missions, where entire rooms are cleared before you even have time to aim.

They are also also completely, utterly brainless. All you need to do in order to "play" Ember is build for strength and efficiency, know how to press 4, and hold down a movement button and the sprint button. There, you now know how to play Ember effectively. Mirage is only slightly more advanced. First you need to equip the Synoid Simulor and/or Telos Boltace, press 1, and then you have to simultaneously hold a movement button and mash the fire button (if using the SynSim) or mash crouch+melee (if using the TelTace). There is no challenge or strategy to either of them.

Now, I can already hear the heavy "here we go again" sighs in the background, as people reach for the keyboard to leave the comments I have so often seen. I'm going to predict those comments and answer them accordingly, purely for the sake of saving time and not having to do so later.

"If you don't like them just don't use them."

Yeahhhno. Warframe is a co-op shooter, not just a single-player game. It is fine to be as OP as you want in, say, Skyrim, or Saints Row, or any other single-player game, because that's your experience, your choice. In this case, the experience of the whole squad has to be kept in mind when designing stuff the players can use. As I and many others have run entire missions where we don't even have time to aim before the room has been cleared via brainless death-aura, that has obviously not been kept in mind here. Another player can definitely ruin the experience for everyone else. Just because I, personally, am not using the frames, does not mean the problem is solved.

"Then just run solo, or with a pre-made squad, or your friends/clan that don't use either of them."

1: The affinity loss is far too great (read: f***ing MASSIVE) if you run solo. 2: Recruit chat devolves into waiting minutes upon minutes for the right person to see the messages you sent out. 3: Friends and clanmates aren't always online, and besides, those 3 ideas are just a band-aid solution anyway.

"Pffft. You're just salty because they're stealing your kills."

I don't give a flying f*** about kill counts. What I DO care about is being able to at least pretend that it is physically possible to contribute to them in missions when either of these two frames are in the squad. See that point above about rooms being cleared in less time than it takes to line up a single shot; it's not fun to run through an empty level, or what may as well be one, because the enemies a room ahead of you are already half-dead.

"Well, not everyone uses those builds."

I'm sorry, what? Realistically, do you think anyone besides people who are at the so-called "endgame," just to screw around, is going to use builds that aren't the meta for particular frames? Sure, Ember can be built for support/buffing if you slap a couple (band-aid) augments on her for her 1 and 2, or for soft CC if you use the aug for her 4, and Mirage post-nerf can act as a worse version of Excalibur for blinding enemies with a slower cast time, but do you think anyone is realistically going to do that vs just clearing rooms in a heartbeat?

"But the abilities, especially WoF, don't scale well past level 50-60ish."

That doesn't matter. Scaling almost ceased to be a factor in this game as soon as Void 2.0 launched. Outside of Sorties and Raids, there just isn't a reason to care about enemy scaling, no reason to go for longer and longer Survival and Defense runs. Endless relic missions are too inconsistent for people to reliably make squads for them anyway, and aren't even always available, plus they got rid of one of the only reasons people did them in the first place, that is to say, getting more than one drop from a key/relic. Like it or not, the star chart (and the relatively low levels that come with it) makes up the vast majority of the gameplay for most players now.

"But things like having to do Invasions 3 times are just annoying to get through anyway, why not speed it up?"

That just points to Invasions needing to be reworked to be more enjoyable, not that it's fine to keep the frames as-is.

"But overall, this is just restricting our options, and WF is a game about having options and not restricting your playstyle!"

And yet, these abilities restrict the "playstyle" of the rest of the squad to simply desperately trying to extract enjoyment out of the experience by running ahead of the frame in question, searching for unburned/unexploded enemies, and that's only viable if the player running the Ember/Mirage in question isn't good at parkour. Bit hypocritical, don't ya think?

So basically, what I'm trying to say is that WoF and the way that Hall of Mirrors interacts with certain weapons both need to be reworked, and soon. They are brainless abilities that simply take the fun away from anyone who isn't using them and turn any given mission into a race to the finish line.

Come on, that is just your opinion and your wish.

Personally i don't use symulor(just because for me it isn't good enough because of small range).

I do use WoF ability or when i'm playing alone on low levels or just to CC at higher levels when it is useful for me and team.

I don't play Mirage much since nerf, only using her to levelup some weapons actively.

But if someone joins me with Symulor Mirage or WoF Ember i enjoy it as it makes my part of mission a bit easier.

And its much better than to have Ash(in post-rework state) in my team because new Ash just dies all the time and i have to spend time to revive.

 

[Siekier]

4 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Those 2 buff the entire squad's speed. If you keep up you can easily get your share of the fun, but if you merely keep up with an Ember you can't, as everything around you is immolated before you can take aim. You have to try to be faster than the player playing her and hope for the best.

'Sides, my main qualm with Ember isn't that she can dish out damage, it's mainly how easy and brainless her 4 is. You have a bit of energy, press 4 and run. That's it. At least the others have to set themselves up around a group of enemies first. They take a basic amount of forethought, which is more than can be said for Ember.

Those 2 can buff the entire squad, but when built for duration their range is so small that most of the time it affects only the player who's using them (unless you stand almost on top of him, that is).

 

As for Ember's WoF not requiring any planning ahead etc... Yeah, that's how it works. And I don't see a problem with it.

It's plain and simple to use, and I like it that way. Not every ability needs to have complex mechanics. Especially when they don't deal absurd amounts of damage.

 

I'll say that again, Ember is in a good spot right now. She's been changed times and times again (RIP Overheat damage reduction) and now she's finally balanced.