Could Warframe learn from Dark Souls?

[Serbian2G]

Dark Souls and Warframe are two completely different games, let's keep it that way...

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

On 29/11/2016 at 0:32 AM, Heckzu said:

Dark Souls is meant to be a single-player RPG where you play as a mediocre character struggling to survive through Hell.

Warframe is a co-op TPS where you play as an overpowered war machine.

Exactly what would you think you implement from Dark Souls into Warframe without it ending up just as easy or boring as the regular content we have?

I think he's referring to raid boss, I presume.

[Ryouhi]

Could you imagine if Rolls/Bulletjumps had I-Frames? :o

[WhisperByte]

54 minutes ago, Ryouhi said:

Could you imagine if Rolls/Bulletjumps had I-Frames? :o

We were asking for it for quite some time back in the day. All we got was damage reduction during rolls (and I think knockdown resistance)

Edited November 30, 2016 by WhisperByte

[Ryouhi]

38 minutes ago, WhisperByte said:

We were asking for it for quite some time back in the day. All we got was damage reduction during rolls (and I think knockdown resistance)

Is that still a thing? o.o 
If so, i never knew and i've put 2000 hours into this game since open beta lol

I'd think adding something like I-Frames or high DR would be really cool, especially if coupled with giving enemies charge up attacks that you would need to dodge properly or something.
Basically adding some more mechanical challenge to the game, instead on relying on ridiculous enemy scaling to emulate challenge.

[Omnimorph]

Actually if you look at old videos from the earliest versions of the game, Warframe was a bit more more in the Dark Souls area than it is now.  Initially, encounters were slower (e.g. weapon swings were slower), with fewer mobs, more individual, more definite, and more individually challenging.

Over time it's turned more into a fast-paced, horde-killing game, and I don't think there's any going back to that more deliberate, challenging form of gameplay now.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Omnimorph

[Inarticulate]

The main problem is that action games and third-person shooters use entirely different mechanics, making it difficult to implement action game mechanics into a third-person shooter.

The crux of most action games is finding ways to land hits while not being hit.

In action games, the player is typically limited to a melee-range weapon. If ranged weapons are available, they have extremely limited ammunition or deal less damage. If a ranged weapon is available as a primary weapon, expect the player to have decreased defensive capabilities to balance the ability to attack enemies from outside of their range.

Engaging boss battles are made by giving the player just enough openings between the boss's attacks to land attacks, giving the player additional openings if they are familiar with the dead spots in the boss's attack animations, and punishing the player for failing to avoid an attack.

Many of these facets are difficult to implement in a shooter where the player character is armed with a ranged weapon by default. If a boss does not have invincibility, the boss is always open to be attacked. If a boss does have invincibility, the only openings are those provided by the invincibility becoming disabled, giving the player only set times to attack. Because attacks from enemies are typically instantaneous and have large range, it is difficult to avoid attacks.

Now, as to how to create a boss in a shooter that has an action game feel, here is an idea:

• Give the boss invincibility on most parts of its body.
• Reveal certain vulnerable portions during the cool downs between the boss's attacks. Sargas Ruk is an example of this.
• Reveal additional vulnerable portions during attack animations. This can be done by moving parts of the body involved in the attack animation out of the way of a vulnerable area for short periods of time. These portions of the body should take more damage than the vulnerable portions in the previous point.
  • However, only do this when the attack animation (or telegraphing) is long enough for the player to respond to it, otherwise it will become a constant source of frustration.
  • All long and big attacks should reveal weak points either during the attack or immediately after the attack. There should never be a time where the player has nothing to do other than get out of the way. The player should either have the choice to attack while dodging the attack or should be positioning and preparing for the counterattack on the weak point when the attack finishes.
  • Lephantis is a decent example of an implementation of this. Juggernaut is not.
• Attacks from the boss should be well-telegraphed and give the player ample time to respond to and avoid the attack. Kela De Thaym's orbital strike is a decent example.
• If an attack is not telegraphed, it should be used as a constant threat to make the player aware of their positioning (e.g. never stand directly behind the boss, never stand too far from the boss for too long).
• Big attacks should be devastating. Players should be forced to avoid big attacks at all costs or defend against them. If defending is an option, it should prevent other actions from being performed simultaneously.
  • Big attacks could be made devastating by dealing percentage damage and/or ignoring damage mitigation and/or inflicting debilitating debuffs.
• The boss should not stand around doing (virtually) nothing for too long at a time. Lephantis is an example of what not to do in this aspect.
• Minions should be used sparingly. If minions are to be used in larger numbers, they should also have telegraphed attacks.
  • Minions should be used very sparingly when the player is playing solo.
• Health gates are perfectly acceptable to draw out a fight so long as it doesn't feel artificial.
  • A good use of a health gate is to cause the particular vulnerable portion to become destroyed, forcing the player to attack a different weak point (e.g. Lephantis, Raptor).
  • Another good use of a health gate is to change phases in a battle where the environment changes and/or the boss has different attack patterns (e.g. Sargas Ruk, Tyl Regor).
  • A bad use of a health gate is Lech Kril's cryo-pack tubes. That's just boring and repetitive.
• Bosses should respond to being attacked by unseen players by returning fire.

[SenariousNex]

It is a bit hard to compare these two games because they are so different in general but you can find similarities in specific areas and learn from who does what better.

Map size - Both feature extremely tiny maps. Even though DS3 world appears large and seamless the areas load quickly enough for you not to notice that. In warframe same is done with tilesets but you have to load in each mission making the world feel segmented and disconnected. Plans for open-ish world of warframe was hinted at in one of the dev streams.

Boss fights - The combat and movement in warframe is far too quick for a long and meaningful boss fight, Actual combat efficiency of a boss is replaced with mechanics that you have to work through. Warframe can definitely use a boss that utilizes fast reflexes and combat abilities that do no involve invulnerability mechanics, those I find more irritating than challenging. Stalker and Specters would make far more fun bosses, than all the greener and corpus planet bosses. 

Lore - This is a huge feature in DS series, every weapon, every item, spell, ability, corpse, painting, building, every goddamned stick on the ground has an ocean deep lore attached to it. And they all piece together a story that doesn't hammer you over the head with pointless text walls no one reads (looking at you WoW and WoW clones), but instead hides from you and challenges you to seek it out, to look at every model, corner and crevice of the game to find answers for questions we haven't even thought of. Warframe lore is currently in progress of being crafted and they definitely can pick up a few useful pointers from DS. Cephalon fragments and Quests are certainly a step in the right direction, on a journey of a thousand miles.

PvP Combat - Is Garbage in both games. Dark Sectors were ok-ish a long time ago. But conclave needs to be scrapped. Lunaro was a nice try and has it's place, but needs more mini-games and modes for people to play it. DS PvP is fun but most weapons have no chance in defeating Estoc Cheesehole-fest and latency is waaay too noticeable in that awful netcode. +tons of hackers.

Coop Play - this is where both games shine. But I feel coop is harder to do in DS due to annoying summoning mechanic. It makes it play as if you are not part of the same world but summons from parallel universes, which makes sense lore-wise, but very annoying to deal with game-play-wise and the phantom colors are aesthetically atrocious. DS can use some pointers there.

 Warframe can definitely use the mechanic that allows players to invade other player worlds to engage in spontaneous PvP, like "control a stalker yourself" instead of AI stalker. Add more adrenaline to the monotonous grind of excavators.

 

As you can see these games are more alike than most might think, but the main difference is that warframe changes like an evolving monster and DS like a stoned turtle made of stone, So I have good hopes for the future.

[Brasten]

1 hour ago, Inarticulate said:

However, only do this when the attack animation (or telegraphing) is long enough for the player to respond to it, otherwise it will become a constant source of frustration.

Yep the Juggernaut is a bad example.  It requires the player to stand in line of fire. Yes, its got weak points and telegraphed attacks, but the weak points are positioned in such a way that you basically have to be in front of it and eat the attack.

[Culaio]

On 30.11.2016 at 7:22 PM, Ryouhi said:

Could you imagine if Rolls/Bulletjumps had I-Frames? :o

I would really want that but it feels like DE is actually nerfing rolls and stuff immunity since I remember being able to roll through enemies aoe attack(the fire tornado thing) without being pushed back but now I am pushed back even if I am rolling, whats more in the past I was able to go through map with high level enemies(100+) without being hit once, by doing combo's of  bullet jump, rolls(including mid air roll) and slides, enemies simply werent able to hit me but now for some reason enemies shot me out of the sky even though they shouldnt be able to, their ability to aim got ridiculous.