New players asks, Ash or Loki?

[SkeinsOfFitzsimmons]

Good (early) morning.

Loving stealth play, silent weapons, and the lore of the Red Veil ... I'm interested in a warframe to fit. 

Both Ash and Loki are favored by RV, but Loki seems to have more utility than Ash. I love the odd metal claws on Loki's hands and feet, but I'm drooling over Ash's new deluxe skin.

I haven't played either frame yet, so what I know about them is from the wiki. 

Suggestions and opinions are welcomed.

 

[(XBOX)DevourMundus]

Loki was my fist frame so he's my first pick for stealth play, he has pretty great augments and even out of stealth play he give great synergies with other warframes with his utilities.

[(XBOX)SgtFunBun]

Personally, I prefer Ash, but that's most likely because I'm a rush-heavy slaughter-happy Tenno.

If you prefer heavy stealth play, I recommend Loki, he can go invisible n' stuff.

Ash can also perform well in stealth, but I'd say he's more for aggressive play, throwing shurikens, teleporting around and slashing everything around him, etc, and he can also go invisible, albeit for a much shorter time than Loki

If you can't decide, I recommend watching the videos on the Warframes, they walk you through all the abilities and how they work.

Hope you can get your mind made, have fun Tenno!

[kyori]

Stealth + kill with weapon = Loki

Stealth + kill with Bladestorm = Ash

[Xzorn]

Hmm..  The best way to distinguish the two is that Loki is a Trickster Rogue while Ash is an Assassin.

Loki distracts and disarms the enemy while Ash unleashes numerous high damage or instant kill strikes.

They both have different perks. I would say Loki is a better group player while Ash can get further in solo endless runs.

Umm.. why not just get both? They're both very powerful but fit different needs.

 

[Arkvold]

Loki is superior for actual stealth play.  Ash is good when you want invisibility to keep you safe while you kill things.

Loki's Advantages
Loki's Invisibility lasts longer than Ash's Smokescreen, and the Hushed Invisibility mod for it makes you dead silent in the process.  It's one of the only ways, prior to the advent of the Silent Battery mod and Banshee's passive, to silence a shotgun.  A silenced, powerful shotgun is a great way to get stealth kills from a distance, especially on enemies that don't lend themselves to melee finishers, like Ospreys or Regulators.

Loki can dodge laser and energy barriers in certain spy vaults by placing a Decoy past the barrier and then using Switch Teleport to swap places with it.  This can vaslty speed up several annoying spy vaults, allowing Loki to complete them faster and with less likelihood of triggering alarms - which in turn earns you extra affinity and better rewards at the end of the mission.

Loki has no directly-damaging abilities - he revolves entirely around utility and misdirection.  This might be seen as a downside, but it allows you to go without building Power Strength on him.

Combining his Irradiated Disarm mod with Radial Disarm, you can turn a room of difficult enemies into a mosh pit while you hang out, invisible, and watch the fray of enemies beating on one another.  It's pretty hilarious, and a great way to shut down a troublesome spawn.

His abilities synergize really well, and almost all of his syndicate mods are useful to some degree.  Even Safeguard Switch, combined with Invisibility or a Decoy, can be used to save an ally that's been downed by teleporting them closer to allies or out of a scrum of enemies.

Loki's Shortcomings
Loki is squishy.  He's fast but frail and relies on Invisibility and Decoy to keep from getting shot up too much.  You're going to need to build a lot of duration and efficiency to keep Invisibility up as much as possible when enemies are present.

No attacking abilities.  Sure, Radial Disarm can do some damage when Infested are present, but that's just their to compensate for the fact that he can't actually remove their weapons with it.  You'll need to actually learn and use your weapons rather than relying on abilities to deal your damage.

Decoy gets popped really fast, and can alert enemies unintentionally.  While decoy's great for providing yourself a target for Switch Teleport, and for providing a moment of distraction, enemies of any significant level can destroy a Decoy in moments, meaning that it's not going to last as a distraction for very long.  You also don't want to use it in a Spy vault, unless everything that could possibly hear its fake gunshots is dead - those fake gunshots alert enemies just like the real thing.

They can't see you if you're under Invisibility, but they can hear you.  While fighting under invisibility, you need to be careful as enemies that are sufficiently alerted will shoot at places where they've heard you making a lot of noise.  You also aren't safe from splash - you're invisible, not intangible.  That rocket landing next to you will kill you just as easily as a rocket landing on you.

Invisibility has a duration and you cannot recast it until its duration has expired.  Keep an eye on the timer, and make sure you're out-of-sight when the ability ends, or expect everybody looking in your general direction is going to go, "hey, where'd that Tenno come from?!  Hit the alarms!"  There's nothing worse than invisibility running out right as you're creeping through a pack of enemies.

Switch Teleport will alert any enemy you use it on, and it typically leaves them in a poor position to subsequently kill them.  Make sure that wherever they end up doesn't have an alarm console that they can reach.

Ash's Advantages
Lots of killing tools.  While his invisibility comes a bit later compared to Loki's, he gets Shuriken, Teleport, and Bladestorm for actually killing enemies.  Even Smokescreen stuns nearby foes, giving you a moment to kill one or two of them unopposed.

He's sturdy!  Ash has a competent amount of armor and surprisingly large health pool.  Life Strike on his melee weapon and Rage on your Warframe can potentially allow him to make competent use of the Rage mod, making him one of only three or four Warframes that can.  Remember to use Smokescreen to protect yourself and set up enemies for killing when your health gets low.

He's a melee monster.  Build up his combo multiplier (don't forget Body Count/Drifting Contact on your melee weapons!) before unleashing Bladestorm and you can deal a lot of damage.

Shuriken can be used to silently pop cameras and weak enemies from a respectable distance in spy vaults.  Similarly, Teleport plus a valid target can let him bypass certain obstacles.

Teleport sets enemies up for a melee Finisher.  The Fatal Teleport mod makes the finisher automatic and refunds some energy if the kill succeeds.

Bladestorm, even nerfed, still renders you invincible for the duration of the animation, letting your shields recharge as you teleport-murder all of your marked victims.  It also deals Finisher damage and inflicts Bleed procs, two of the most dangerous forms of damage in the game.  Each stab also counts as a hit for your melee multiplier, too.

Ash's Weaknesses
Ash has no way of dealing with laser barriers in spy vaults without a valid Teleport target, aside from waiting for them to move out of the way or turn off.  Gotta be more careful with him than with Loki.

Shuriken can kill but aren't great at it.  Their damage is kinda underwhelming unless you mod for a lot of Power Strength, and even then, Bladestorm will probably serve you better.

Ash doesn't get an equivalent to Hushed Invisibility.  You must be aware of how much sound you're making in order to keep from alerting enemies.

Smokescreen's duration is very short.  Chances are you can't keep it up permanently unless you have a lot of Power Efficiency.  Beware of cameras in spy vaults!  They can catch you quite easily if your Smokescreen drops at an inopportune moment.

Casting Smokescreen alerts any enemies that it stuns.  Make sure you're away from any enemies when you recast it, or that you're prepared to kill them, otherwise you risk them triggering alarms.

Teleport prevents you from getting a proper stealth finisher if you use it on a Warden in a Rescue mission.  You only get the normal Stealth Finisher bonus, not the full damage multiplier for using a Stealth Finisher on a Warden.  On very high level Rescue missions, or if your melee weapon is particularly weak, this may mean that Wardens might survive a teleport-finisher combo.  Teleport-finishers will also break your stealth finisher combo for the same reason.

Bladestorm deals Finisher-type damage, but is not a Stealth Finisher.  You don't get Finisher damage multipliers or Stealth Kill Bonus Affinity for foes killed with Bladestorm.

Teleport is notoriously unreliable when attempting to teleport to enemies that are on slopes, rough terrain, or who otherwise aren't level with you.  Sometimes, the stealth kill opportunity following teleport will fail outright in these situations for no good reason, even with the Fatal Teleport mod.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Arkvold

[Ghost_1302]

Id go with ash cause his easier to mod for new players and has more bulk. My first frame was loki and yeah, I died a lot. Wasn't really able to appreciate loki till well after end game. But if possible you should get both.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Suggestion. Don't choose one frame over another. Both are equally good gameplay & fashion wise. Play as both in a survival for about 20mins. See which one is more of your style 

[DatDarkOne]

I recommend Ash over Loki.  That's just me.   :D

[Acos]

Loki is the crowd control version of Ash. 
Ash is the murder control version of Loki. 

[Guy6869]

Depending on how new you are, Ash could be much harder to get than loki, seeing as his parts drop from manics, which only spawn on high level grineer missions once the alarm has been sounded, or the raid LOR, Loki on the otherhand is way easier to get, his parts drop form the hyena pack on neptune IIRC, so yeah, Loki is probably better to get first unless you can handle the higher levels and rare spawns.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Guy6869

[(PSN)deadbeef001]

5 hours ago, Ghost_1302 said:

Id go with ash cause his easier to mod for new players and has more bulk. My first frame was loki and yeah, I died a lot. Wasn't really able to appreciate loki till well after end game. But if possible you should get both.

^^

Ghost's right. If you do'nt have all the mods yet prepare to die a lot as Loki, but you will not be sorry if he's fully kitted out with the correct mods.

But yeah, of the 2 Loki's easier to obtain. I built my Loki for speed and mobility when I was lower ranked and adapted my game play accordingly.

[FLSH_BNG]

Loki is certainly more difficult to learn and master than Ash, but he's a lot more versatile. Ash, while pretty much a one-trick pony, is still a solid warframe health, armor, and shield wise and can stay alive a little longer.

Your choice should primarily be influenced by your playstyle and the mods you already have; Loki relies on maneuverability and misdirection to stay alive in heavier fights, while Ash can continue to kill for a lot longer, only really needing his smokescreen as an "Oh $h!t" button to get out of tough scrapes.

Also keep in mind that many players don't look favorably on an Ash player in many public missions because his ability kit provides no benefits to other players and can really only make offensive contributions and barely any defensive ones for the group. Generally speaking Ash is not the best choice for playing with others in non-survival endless missions either, because while you're marking and Blade-Storming enemies, they still move and attack until the animation starts on them, and once the animation starts, they are invulnerable to your allies' weapons until the animation finishes.

I'm speaking as someone for whom Ash is their least favorite warframe though, so take that for what it's worth.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

15 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

 Ash, while pretty much a one-trick pony.

WAS a one trick pony.

[DelegadoZero]

Loki. Because hushed invisibility. Who cares CC build.

[Tizodd]

7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Hmm..  The best way to distinguish the two is that Loki is a Trickster Rogue while Ash is an Assassin.

Loki distracts and disarms the enemy while Ash unleashes numerous high damage or instant kill strikes.

<snip>

This^ is actually a pretty good explanation.

Also, maximizing Ash's stealth capabilities to be even close to Loki's takes more in terms of mods (some r10 like Narrowminded).  So for a newer player I'd have to recommend Loki, since it's easier to mod for longer lasting stealth.

Loki is also easier to farm unless you're planning to buy with plat.

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, Tizodd said:

This^ is actually a pretty good explanation.

Also, maximizing Ash's stealth capabilities to be even close to Loki's takes more in terms of mods (some r10 like Narrowminded).  So for a newer player I'd have to recommend Loki, since it's easier to mod for longer lasting stealth.

Loki is also easier to farm unless you're planning to buy with plat.

 

For newer players Loki invis is for sure easier.

Although in the very end of things, they're pretty similar in stealth power.

Ash having easy access to Arcane Trickery through Fatal Teleport and Bladestorm allows him to layer stealth while Loki can neuter opponents to make that 1 second of visibility less problematic.