Test Before You Talk

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Meta Gaming predates video games, and in regards to electronic gaming, it has existed for as long as competitive video games have.

Electronic gaming precedes competitive gaming.  If you're considering competing against the computer, meta still came much later.  Take Pong as an example.  There isn't really a meta that can be used for that game. 

I'm only referring to electronic gaming and not something like Chess.

Edited December 5, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added info

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

Electronic gaming precedes competitive gaming.  If you're considering competing against the computer, meta still came much later.  Take Pong as an example.  There isn't really a meta that can be used for that game. 

Meta gaming in chess, for example, has been around for much longer than video games.

[DatDarkOne]

I had just edited my post to reflect that right before your post about chess.  That is why I clarified my statement to only regard electronic gaming.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Take Pong as an example.  There isn't really a meta that can be used for that game. 

False. If I play with you repeatedly, and notice that you tend to leave your paddle near the top of the screen, then I will start sending the ball to the bottom of your screen as much as possible. That is meta.

[Thebel]

14 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Electronic gaming precedes competitive gaming.  If you're considering competing against the computer, meta still came much later.  Take Pong as an example.  There isn't really a meta that can be used for that game. 

I'm only referring to electronic gaming and not something like Chess.

This whole point of your experience before a meta or whatever it is you're trying to get across is entirely irrelevant  to the discussion though. No one really cares what your previous history is with games. The fact is you currently are in a game with a clearly defined meta, which is relevant to the discussion.

[Hitsuke]

Totally agree OP. I see it all the time on here, most recently in the "Is the Telos Boltace broken OP etc etc". The Warframe community is pretty great in general, but there are a lot of whiney, passive aggressive types who always find things to complain about, and usually try to do it from an "I've used it (when I barely have) and I know it's broken" standpoint.

There's certain things in this game that anyone with a pair of eyes knows is broken, but then there's things that people see once, in a certain situation with near perfect conditions and shout "BRAKHEN" at the top of their adolescent voices.

[achromos]

On 12/3/2016 at 2:35 PM, Tailion said:

 

 

Lets look at Nezha shall we? for the sake of this we shall ignore augments since rhino has been around for longer and has more of them

Rhino: Rhino's 1 carries good CC for cheap, fast animation times and is cheap since it is a 1. Rhino's 2 is a VERY strong ability due it its cheap cost, scaling, and ability to ignore status and such. Rhino's 3 is a very strong all purpose damage buff where as other buff frames (Like Banshee) can be a bit more circumstantial, this buff is helpful to both rhino and his team. Rhino's 4 is a fairly well scaling ability that gives CC and finisher options with decent animation speeds. So in summary Rhino's 2, 3, and 4 are all very good abilities and his 1 is good enough for a 1, he brings CC,survivability, and damage buffs in a single frame and can do it all in 1 build fairly easily.

 

Nezha: Nezha's 1 is nice if you like going fast and can remove status from allies (pretty helpful), out side of the extra mobilty it does very little. Nezha's 2 tosses out a low damage chakram that can restore some health (scales off of power str so it can heal a decent chunk of health) in a small area, the chakram can be activated again to teleport which is cool, but not all that helpful given Nezha's innate mobility. Nezha's 3 is a worse base and scaling version of Rhino's 2 with small CC on it, but it has a rather long cast time which has gotten me killed more then once both during simulacrum testing and real mission testing (thanks to nullifiers and bombards). Nezha's 4 is yet again a worse version of Rhino's 4, less then half the duration and a good bit less range with annoying cast animations on the up, and down for the spears, Nezha's 4 can also be useless vs infested thanks to ancients. So in Summary 2 of Nezha's abilities are worse versions of Rhino's with bad animation times (which natural talent can only fix so much) which leave Nezha's 1 & 2 which are both good enough for what they are thanks to the mobility and slight supportive effects. Nezha does bring CC, survivability, and minor supportive roles but Rhino does it better, the only real way Rhino loses is mobility, if you wanta go fast then Nezha is great but for long haul high challenge missions Nezha is just outclassed by a frame that already existed. This is all before you take into account Augments which make Rhino;s key ability, Iron Skin, MUCH stronger and easier to use.

I dunno if anyone brought this up (not going to weed through all the pages), but Nezha 'does' have one thing over Rhino.  Added team support with her his warding halo augment.  (Basically being able to give your allies all the warding halo effect.)

Edited December 5, 2016 by achromos

[Thebel]

3 minutes ago, achromos said:

I dunno if anyone brought this up (not going to weed through all the pages), but Nezha 'does' have one thing over Rhino.  Added team support with his warding halo augment.  (Basically being able to give your allies all the warding halo effect.)

 

Ftfy

[(PSN)forChristsake]

7 minutes ago, achromos said:

I dunno if anyone brought this up (not going to weed through all the pages), but Nezha 'does' have one thing over Rhino.  Added team support with her warding halo augment.  (Basically being able to give your allies all the warding halo effect.)

I did. I just don't like that you can't cast it on dogs and cats (and it's hard sometimes to cast on your own sentinel), but I'm a fan as of recently. 

[[DE]Danielle]

Hey guys, about 2 pages of posts were removed for derailing the thread. Please keep on topic. Thank you. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

False. If I play with you repeatedly, and notice that you tend to leave your paddle near the top of the screen, then I will start sending the ball to the bottom of your screen as much as possible. That is meta.

It is meta, but @DatDarkOne is just as correct as you are in this case as well.

Meta= Most Effective Tactic Available.

Any tactic can be the meta and, as such, no single tactic or approach is if they are all even.

...This game doesn't enjoy that degree of balance though. Some stuff does work better but may not necessarily be fun or challenging to all.

That said, I think it's a shame players are derided because they choose to do what's most fun for them as opposed to what's others think is most effective.

At the end of the day, this game is supposed to be about fun and there are as many definitions of fun as there are players. Each opinion should be respected equally provided they aren't hurting others.

You want to gimp your frame and setup and beat the odds for fun? Do it.

You want to twink your frame and setup allowing you to cakewalk through the challenge for fun? Do it.

As it stands, if the items and frames in the game were more closely balanced to each other this would be a non-issue as fun and competency would, conceivably, play larger roles (as they should).

 

 

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That said, I think it's a shame players are derided because they choose to do what's most fun for them as opposed to what's others think is most effective.

At the end of the day, this game is supposed to be about fun and there are as many definitions of fun as there are players. Each opinion should be respected equally provided they aren't hurting others.

You have summed it up very nicely and neatly.  +1000 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Meta= Most Effective Tactic Available.

Meta actually means using outside information to adjust your strategy.

5 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

this game is supposed to be about fun

Winning is fun.

[Rakosta_Kai]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Meta actually means using outside information to adjust your strategy.

 

What you are calling a "strategy" is actually a tactic... The two aren't the same.

What you and others call "Meta" is just new school for the word strategy. Your description is kinda ironic as meta actually means "self referential". Etymology FTW.

15 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Winning is fun for me

 FTFY

Simply put, merely winning is not the only definition of, or path to, fun.

 

[(PSN)AirJordan73]

I've been playing warframe since it started on PS4 3 years ago. I've seen the 'meta' change a bunch of times, pretty much with every patch the meta will change based on what gets a nerf/buff or whenever a specific mod comes out or gets 'discovered' as being secretly op. The game is supposed to be about having fun, whether its running missions with friends, or duking it out in PvP to see who the best tenno is. 

If you feel like playing a certain frame, no matter whether other people find it good or not, play it. I've seen many things that are considered bad, but they work. All that matters is the person playing that specific frame or using that specific weapon. Everyone considered the MK-1 Braton or the Skana to be the 'worst' weapons in the game but people stuck with them, 6 forma, even more and they take them through nightmare trials etc. Play with whatever you want.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

What you are calling a "strategy" is actually a tactic... The two aren't the same.

What you and others call "Meta" is just new school for the word strategy. Your description is kinda ironic as meta actually means "self referential". Etymology FTW.

 FTFY

Simply put, merely winning is not the only definition of, or path to, fun.

 

Meta gaming actually means using info from outside of the game to make decisions, such as laying down a counter for something you see a player always do.  

I know the differencebetween a strategy and tactic and meant what I said.

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Meta gaming actually means using info from outside of the game to make decisions, such as laying down a counter for something you see a player always do.  

I know the differencebetween a strategy and tactic and meant what I said.

This is my understanding of the terminology as well. For example, in Magic the Gathering, if players are mostly playing goblins it would be metagame to put cards in your deck that are useless against other players who don't use goblins but all but required against the particular goblin build. In effect, while the game hasn't changed, what has become popular or is seen as the most effective or efficient by some players' opinion, changes and warps what players do in the game. Usually, as the metagame becomes more accepted by players, the game itself is warped around this concept so development might put explicit tools for players to defeat popular player choices. Sometimes, metagame situations occur due to the game pushing players towards them like Gnashers in Gears of War; or Trinity in our Trials like Law of Retribution; but most often these situations are from players identifying what works best for them, and in the collective, following suit. In competitive games, this often creates something of an arms-race between developers and players as players identify what seems to be the best choice for them and play nothing else because they want advantages, and developers trying to nerf or buff things based on this perceived popularity. In these cases, the metagame has come full circle and popular player opinion becomes true and part of the game proper and is addressed either by nerfing it, and pushing players to a new metagame or by buffing it and making the metagame the actual state of its balance. Its an a situation that developers always need to be wary of honestly.

[(PSN)Mistawang69]

CAN I PLEASE GET MY PSN WARFRAME ACCOUNT MIGRATED TO PC SERVERS ANGRY NERD HERE HI

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mistawang69 said:

CAN I PLEASE GET MY PSN WARFRAME ACCOUNT MIGRATED TO PC SERVERS ANGRY NERD HERE HI

When and if a migration happens again, I am willing to put money down that PS4 to PC will never happen.  I'd suggest making the switch now.

Also, wrong topic, thread and sub-forum. 

[(PSN)Puckish_Rogue125]

On 12/3/2016 at 3:19 PM, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Not necessarily, but I think you haven't played enough to know how he's viable, and you surely don't have nearly as much knowledge as I've learned with my roughly 700 hours of experience using Oberon. Not that you'd need nearly that much, but I think you still need to learn more than you have, if you don't know that he's viable.

I think im starting to see why ppl seem to get on you about this...

[Volinus7]

"Test condition" differs for each person.

Extreme? 20 lvl140 napalms or 5 lvl140 sentients or 5 lvl140 bursa or lvl140 juggernaut. no items no covers.

Moderate? 20 lvl140 bombards or 20 lvl140 nullifiers. no items no covers.

Easy mode? 20 lvl140 heavy gunners

beginner mode? melee enemies.

 

ps. I always use extreme condition as my standard.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Volinus7

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

"Test condition" differs for each person.

Extreme? 20 lvl140 napalms or 5 lvl140 sentients or 5 lvl140 bursa or lvl140 juggernaut. no items no covers.

Moderate? 20 lvl140 bombards or 20 lvl140 nullifiers. no items no covers.

Easy mode? 20 lvl140 heavy gunners

beginner mode? melee enemies.

Those can work well for general tests, but there are many other factors in missions, like long-term energy economy and eximus effects. I've used Oberon solo against level 200+ enemies though.

Not quite level 200, but here's a rather unfortunate clip of a glitch disabling my melee attacks against some really high level enemies. The poor decision to go on level 300s spawn killed me at round 24 though.