Can we please nerf Mirage + Simulor?

[Reifnir]

4 minutes ago, Midrib said:

I'm not fine with a combo that trivialize the whole game, even the small amount of endgame missions we have.

Unless you have rose-tinted glasses permanently glued to your eye sockets, newsflash: Warframe is (and has been for quite some time now) a game about how to better trivialize content. Yes, back in very early days it bore some resemblance to a tactical shooter/slasher. Not anymore, not by a long shot. 

Given how enemy armor, HP and damage output scales, there are two major ways a fight can go: Either you crush the enemy without as much as giving them a chance to say "hi" or you get slaughtered because you did not bring the brand of cheese required for this specific mission. Anything in-between is of little consequence, tbh. We have abilities that negate enemy fire, abilities that allow us to place map-wide crowd control with no diminishing returns, abilities and weapons that literally vaporize armies or kill enemies of any level in one hit, and if at this point you still think Warframe is a game about fairness, skill and tactics (and not a horde-slaying game of kill before you get killed)... Well, think again. 

 

[sidmarks1]

I would prefer to not fail the mission by any means, so just use what you want and have fun doing it.

[Praxxor]

I really wonder what servers you guys play on, I play on any that's populated at the time ( eur, asia, murica) and I see about 2-3 Mirages every week, is it really that much of a problem?

[Date_Terumune]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

What would you have them do, given that they're already in that mission with that primary? Just use their secondary/melee or not use clones, because that's how you want to constrain their gameplay?

It's a PUBLIC matchmaking mission, if you want the ability to control how cell members play then there are also matchmaking options to support that.

Like it or not, most public missions are a race to complete as quickly as possible and get to extraction, that has nothing to do with which frames or weapons people are using. If you're not in affinity range of where the remaining living enemies are, that's on you.

Please explain why 3 should suffer for 1? he can of course use what he wants but making game unplayable for others [just bcos you are in a hurry] is not the way others want to play, how can a newcomer enjoy his own time when "Mirage+Simulor" combo joins up and absolutely ruins his entire experience? if "Combo" player wants to do it as fast as possible, he can take solo and then compete on how fast he does the mission.

 

PUBLIC also doesnt mean that you can barge in and destroy someone's fun, when 3 players ask you to stop, it would be polite to do so [unless you are selfish "tenno-scum"]

 

Like it or not, playing a race should be done solo as you wont get held back by explorers.

[Midrib]

Just now, Reifnir said:

Unless you have rose-tinted glasses permanently glued to your eye sockets, newsflash: Warframe is (and has been for quite some time now) a game about how to better trivialize content. Yes, back in very early days it bore some resemblance to a tactical shooter/slasher. Not anymore, not by a long shot. 

Given how enemy armor, HP and damage output scales, there are two major ways a fight can go: Either you crush the enemy without as much as giving them a chance to say "hi" or you get slaughtered because you did not bring the brand of cheese required for this specific mission. Anything in-between is of little consequence, tbh. We have abilities that negate enemy fire, abilities that allow us to place map-wide crowd control with no diminishing returns, abilities and weapons that literally vaporize armies or kill enemies of any level in one hit, and if at this point you still think Warframe is a game about fairness, skill and tactics (and not a horde-slaying game of kill before you get killed)... Well, think again. 

 

No one said this game was hard, but we don't need to make it easier.

You can crush the enemies without cheese, just because you rely on it doesn't mean its the only way.

If you still think that warframe is a horde shooter that allows\accept nukes with little to no effort, then you must've been asleep the past few reworks

[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, Date_Terumune said:

Please explain why 3 should suffer for 1? he can of course use what he wants but making game unplayable for others [just bcos you are in a hurry] is not the way others want to play, how can a newcomer enjoy his own time when "Mirage+Simulor" combo joins up and absolutely ruins his entire experience? if "Combo" player wants to do it as fast as possible, he can take solo and then compete on how fast he does the mission.

PUBLIC also doesnt mean that you can barge in and destroy someone's fun, when 3 players ask you to stop, it would be polite to do so [unless you are selfish "tenno-scum"]

Like it or not, playing a race should be done solo as you wont get held back by explorers.

I'm not saying that Mirage/Simulor players are right in playing the way they do, or that your playstyle is "better". What I'm saying is that in a public mission it's futile to try and control the way others play.

Someone who speedruns missions will get just as frustrated sitting at extraction waiting for the explorers to catch up.

If you want to control the way the mission goes, choose 'invite only' matchmaking. That holds true whatever your chosen playstyle.

[ograzzt]

Another "They stole my kills! Nerf it now!" thread, how new and original.

How dares this damage dealer frame with high MR locked AoE weapon kill enemies fast and efficiently! 

I'd toned down sound and visual effects of Simulor tho. Constant sounds and vortixes can be annoying.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, ograzzt said:

I'd toned down sound and visual effects of Simulor tho. Constant sounds and vortixes can be annoying.

Other games have the ability to tone down or turn off visual effect and sounds of other party members, that would be a useful addition to Warframe.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Could we please stop fighting amongst each other please?  :/

[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Could we please stop fighting amongst each other please?  :/

As long as people insist on trying to impose their views on others, that's not likely to happen.

Intolerance is the cause of much conflict.

Edited December 5, 2016 by ChuckMaverick

[Reifnir]

18 minutes ago, Midrib said:

You can crush the enemies without cheese, just because you rely on it doesn't mean its the only way.

You see, crushing the enemy already implies cheesy approach. It doesn't matter much if I choose to blast them with Simulor Mirage, shred with Tonkor, stab to death with Covert Lethality+Naramon or chop to bits with red-critting Galatine that heals more than my Warframe's entire HP pool on every hit. They still die and it's still a one-sided slaughter. Different brand of cheese is still cheese. And unless DE decides to take Warframe back to day one with Damage 3.0 people will keep having fun with that. 

 

18 minutes ago, Midrib said:

you must've been asleep the past few reworks

Which ones? Because most reworks accomplished literally NOTHING good. They either made execution more annoying or nerfed the frame in question into the ground. Looking at popular nukers:

Saryn went from "press 4 to win" to "press 1 to win and don't forget to bring Trinity". Big change!

Mesa went from "press 4 and hold the button to win" to "press 4, hold the button and rotate the camera to win". 

Mag got nerfed into the ground and currently has nothing to offer that cannot be done better by other frames. 

Ash went from "press 4 to win" to "press 4 to spend several seconds marking and still win". They just added a crutch. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Reifnir

[Midrib]

13 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

You see, crushing the enemy already implies cheesy approach. It doesn't matter much if I choose to blast them with Simulor Mirage, shred with Tonkor, stab to death with Covert Lethality+Naramon or chop to bits with red-critting Galatine that heals more than my Warframe's entire HP pool every hit as an added bonus. They still die and it's still a one-sided slaughter. Different brand of cheese is still cheese. And unless DE decides to take Warframe back to day one with Damage 3.0 people will keep having fun with that. 

 

Which ones? Because most reworks accomplished literally NOTHING good. They either made execution more annoying or nerfed the frame in question into the ground. Looking at popular nukers:

Saryn went from "press 4 to win" to "press 1 to win and don't forget to bring Trinity". Big change!

Mesa went from "press 4 and hold the button to win" to "press 4, hold the button and rotate the camera to win". 

Mag got nerfed into the ground and currently has nothing to offer that cannot be done better by other frames. 

Ash went from "press 4 to win" to "press 4 to spend several seconds marking and still win". They just added a crutch. 

all the examples you gave are cheesy weapons. We have like 160+ weapons in this game and the only ones you can think of are cheesy powercreeps.

That was the idea of the reworks, Make the execution more difficult rather then nerfing the damage and making the frame unviable. which proves that DE isn't fine with effortless nukes.

 

[ObsidianG]

Guess I am a good guy and mostly play Mirage+Simulor alone or when I want to speed run a mission with my friends.

[ObsidianG]

21 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

 

Mag got nerfed into the ground and currently has nothing to offer that cannot be done better by other frames. 

 

I tend to no agree with that. With a good bubble build + lanka or mara detron clears rooms in seconds. Plus it's good against bosses.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, ObsidianG said:

Guess I am a good guy and mostly play Mirage+Simulor alone or when I want to speed run a mission with my friends.

I don't think I've ever played Mirage + Simulor, but then I rarely play Mirage anyway. I've nothing against her, I just haven't got around to focusing on learning her kit properly yet.

My (silenced) SynSimulor gets used for solo Ivara runs, to top off my energy with syndicate procs while I'm prowling.

[Reifnir]

1 minute ago, Midrib said:

DE isn't fine with effortless nukes.

And that is why they keep adding new weapons (Tigris Prime, Galatine Prime) and mods (Resonating Quake) with even more cheese  into the game.

Good logic right there!

[Midrib]

3 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

And that is why they keep adding new weapons (Tigris Prime, Galatine Prime) and mods (Resonating Quake) with even more cheese  into the game.

Good logic right there!

If they were fine with them they wouldn't have reworked ash\mesa\saryn so yes its a good logic, get over it.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Midrib

[Reifnir]

17 minutes ago, Midrib said:

If they were fine with them they wouldn't have reworked ash\mesa\saryn so yes its a good logic, get over it.

The way I see it, nerfing something only to introduce an even more OP alternative can only indicate one of the following:

1) DE is too sensitive to whiners like you and the topic starter and hush them by nerfing the most obvious "offenders" from time to time. Since Warframe is still a game where OP is the norm, they compensate it by introducing new stuff that makes annihilating the enemy easier still. 

2) DE is split into warring factions that take turns submitting new items and balance changes. One update nerfs something or introduces ideas fit for a tactical shooter, the next one brings more powercreep and "press a button to wipe the room" stuff and the cycle repeats itself.

 

Whichever scenario is more likely, it doesn't seem like Warframe is going to stop being a cheesy, "OP and loving it" game in any foreseeable future. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Reifnir

[Thundervision]

8 minutes ago, Date_Terumune said:

Before you tell me to go solo or with friends, why can this player select solo himself? he doesnt need his team to survive or deal more damage, so... why?

2 cups of greedy milk to Nazrethim and this sir.

 

Sadly, Mirage & Spamulor is the current epicenter of toxicity from both sides: players who use it, players who don't use it but encounter players who use it.

I'll be straight about this.

Playstyle of typical Cancerage with Spamulor is a pretty damn simple:

• it joins, it doesn't care of you or objectives, it casts 1&3 and runs around constantly spamming orbs. Mission type doesn't matter.
• It doesn't use Prism to blind nearby enemies when someone is down, it doesn't use [2] on Corpus Doorways, it does nothing but running & spamming LMB (heck, all those times I politely asked them to detonate Orbs so we could get the cores and datamass -- ignored)
• all they have to care about is not getting killed (and yet Cancerages can't even...).
• Spamulor doesn't require aiming
• Spamulor regens energy
• Spamulor doesn't consume 10 rounds per shot
• Mirage clones and Spamulor orbs are completely broken in terms of dealing damage

And this is the pinnacle of a brain-dead game and I don't get why DE do nothing while their statement regarding Homer's bird is exactly the current mess that's happening with Spamulor and Mirage. Same goes for Vauban/Banshee Ulti augs and Telos Boltace. It encourages things to play the game for you.

This is my experience with 9/10 Cancerages I see, 1/10 Mirages plays with anything but AoE weapon, uses Eclipse augment and Prism (for kills and blind) and actually can into teamplay.

 

...so sad to see so many folks defending & justifying it. There's more than just effortlessly pressing something to kill everything in range you can find and try in WF, no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise.

Inb4 I get accused for something stupid, like something I don't get or don't know:

Spoiler

Glad I hate everything about this space magic-infused stick, from its design and sound to its mechanics.

People saying that everyone has right to play and get fun the way they want are right, however, please, do not forget that it works both ways, folks. And by exterminating everything in range before others players can even react -- or intentionally running in in front of melee-ing players to spam orbs (that's the thing, own experience and flaming chat) -- you're ruining their fun, their desire to play and experience. So don't be those Tenno using the first sentence to justify their selfishness. Amen.

 

As much as I want Mirage + Spamulor combo being balanced out, there's still Telos Boltace. There's still Sonicor/Staticor/Tonkor (now with Multishot Rivens) and now Zarr. If before the problem was about just Mirage being OP with AoE weapons, now it lies between player's behavior and broken synergy with Mirage/Clones and certain weapons. There's also a [2] power which is useless unless you play on Corpus tiles or mod Mirage for Eclipse augment to be useful for others. The current state basically begs you to abuse AoE/Spamulor.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, Midrib said:

You have resulted into insults, Nice job.

I'm fine with combos that are strong but require brain capacity to maintain or do, its not a double standard.

If mirage required atleast aiming in the general direction I would be fine.

All of the stuff you talked about require more setup and effort then Mirage, even if its minimal effort, its noticable.

Maturity? You started insulting me on a forum post, so much for being mature. And again more assumptions, Playing favorites? What favorites? what makes you think that I in anyway supported cheese? I even pointed out that I'm against some of the stuff that you were posting. But its ok, keep insulting and making assumptions.

 

" Call it vendetta or whatever at least im not blind"

Yeah.  because you didn't insult me ever.  Don't play the victim card here.

It is a double standard to defend the very thing you are against.  I've stated this at least twice now with you.  it's no different to have a nyx spam her chaos versus mirage simulor.  Both "trivalize content."  But you defend it anyway.  That's called a double standard.  and as i've already said before you can't factually quantify effort.  And you're using setup to justify the same kind of power.

Technically you started with a mock post.  and then when replying to me directly you called me blind.  Which if anything was the first "insult" being thrown.  So don't act innocent here.  Please tell me where you said you were against anything I posted.  Because unless i'm remembering last night wrong the closest thing I got to that was "I never said irraidating disarm is okay" for someone who's against this stuff supposedly you sure defend it pretty hard.

If you truely are against things that trivialize game content then just say so.  And our entire discussion can be done.  Because that's been the entire problem with your replies to me.  You never made it abundantly clear.  You just continued to state why the combos I said were fine.  Also stop strawmanning.

I gave you a clear cut response on what my point was.  And instead of arguing that point or re explaining yourself you decide to straw man with me.  I can accept that I was brash.  Can you?

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

I like how people seem to gloss over the fact Mirage has Eclipse which is the whole reason that gun does buckets of damage when combined with Hall of Mirrors. 

Only thing I wish would get nerfed is the hell it plays with my frame rate. Is the only thing that bothers me. As a Chroma/Saryn/Valkyr primary, I can keep up damage wise with about anything weapon wise with any Mirage Simular user so I don't get that whole, "I am not contributing, I can't get kills, nuuu my epeen" issue. Even if I am on drakes like Nyx who do not kill I typically do not care. Just stop slaughtering my fps to the point my high speed ammo guzzling guns fire as if they have negative fire rate 

[Cyanidekiller24]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

no just nerf the ammo capacity to 40 shots for the simulor.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, Senpai-Pie said:

I like how all the people who don't want to lose their cheese mechanic have the argument of:

Go Solo

Why don't you go solo instead? You're doing all the killing anyways. You don't need a team Why should everyone else go solo because you don't want to? Or are you that unconfident in yourself that even with cheese tactics you need a team?

Assuming people defending the combo like/want/care for the cheese.  Some of us were making a different point.

Also telling us to go solo means you actually support us telling the people to go play solo if they don't like the combo.

the rest of your reply is just childish nonsense that didn't need to be added.  Telling us "supporters" to go play solo doesn't make sense because we're not the one having an issue here.  Going solo or running with your own team will always be a valid response to anyone who complains about anything happening in a pub match that isn't griefing and is allowed by the normal game design.  This is because the public match is no ones match.  Therefore no one's rules can be superimposed on anyone except for the games rules.  and as far as the game is concerned right now this combo is fine under the game rules.

When you willingly choose to go into a public match you are accept whatever kind of random you get.  That's just the reality.

[(PSN)R_U_I-TUGA]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Coyote_x_Starrk said:

I am sick of getting into missions with Mirage that just spam the Simulor. It sucks every bit of fun that the game can provide. Especially if its a defense mission where there is very little room to do much. I have no choice but to stand around and basically do nothing as the Mirage lazily shoots the Simulor and kills everything. Especially if you are using a Warframe like Inaros, Saryn or Atlas which requires alot of moving around and your enemies staying alive for you to be able to perform your abilities. 

 

 

I am all for making the most of your Warframe and what it can do, but this interupts OTHER peoples enjoyment of the game. 

 

Its just like Mesa before she was nerfed. 

let me guess u dont have mirage and simulor right. and what build u use in your saryn. because evertime a use mine i kill ever enemy and i dont need to move. yesterday i make one defense whith my saryn, and 3 mirages the tree mirage together kill 387 enemys, my saryn only kill 1457.  

[(PSN)R_U_I-TUGA]

and if i use my banshe no one kill nothing