Rhino 8.3: Feedback Thread

[MadMuse]

I can already see two immediate problems:

 

1) Everyone's already pointed out the scaling on iron skin is still very poor and increasing the base values don't really do much. Compared to Ember's overheat this ability costs the same for far less benefit.

 

2) 50% dmg, compare this to Banshee, who gets x5 dmg on painted targets. Granted you need to aim but usually the targets are large and not difficult to hit.

 

I don't understand why so many warframes have very similar abilities but are nowhere near each other in terms of effectiveness.

I really like the lack of a timer now, but still, as it's been said plenty a time before, it does not age well. I'd prefer the old timer, because now Rhino is highly situational. Yes, cheap god mode, but that was at least useful and now IS only works on low level mobs; where it wouldn't matter much, unless you were leveling him, in which case a temporary godmode (especially given his limited energy pool) wouldn't be all that overpowered unless there was a new (I must say BULLS#&$ to the new system) Aura mod that increased energy drops. Regen wouldn't cut it at all. So now, while I am complaining, loudly I hope, I must say, good on you, DE for trying something different, but it doesn't work so well. Please PLEASE revert to the old timer, or at least buff the damage caps so that he can still stay a tank.

 

And in regards to Roar; it's nice too, but again, highly situational, so IMHO it's not allowing flexibility but forcing adaptability. There's a difference. A good player will be able to spot the need for a RAWR and a well placed CC Stomp, but in the case of the old Radial Blast, Rhino was flexible enough to deal with all factions and effectively keep his team alive; especially with no official matchmaking system I can see other than if you're high level and you want to play with like-experienced players, only play high levels. WHICH I might add would make Iron Skin useless and thus the new nerfs (at least how I feel) move Warframe in the wrong direction. But if you lack experience, and being situational, it wouldn't be fun. It'd be frustrating. There needs to be balance between fun and challenge, so I think the only change you needed was to tweak Iron Skin and not take away a very useful desperation attack.

 

Ember will still be best choice for a tanky warframe when it comes to soaking up huge amounts of damage for a long period of time. 1200 damage soak without damage reduce will just pop in a second in T3 void runs vs. elites for example. Ember can stand in a Void laser for several seconds until her shields run out with overheat running.. then the sentinel shield recharge pops and ember still stands. Rhino will die in 3 seconds.

 

Imho give Ember the flat damage absorb in form of a overheat shield and give Rhino the Overheat mechanic (damage reduce) minus the close range damage aura but with the taunt. To really tank you need damage reduction and not a flat damage soak.. especially when surrounded by 10 taunted enemies but that is exactly the place where rhino should be... in the middle of things soaking damage from taunted enemies.

Rhino was at his core, Big Daddy Slaughterfactory. He made Warframe feel less like a space ninja shooter/hacknslash feel more like God of War. It was fun. There used to be a back and forth of Frost vs. Rhino, but now both I feel outclass him. Honestly, with the new Aura mod slots, now you have to decide what to cut because even with 60 mod slots total, you can't mod him with energy/power mods and still use sprint mods to make the most of said power/energy mods.

[Helljack84]

There are two main issues i have with iron skin. The first is the bad scaling, on low to mid tier missions enemies will never even touch your shields and you'll be in godmode wondering why the "squishies" keep running for cover until you meet enemies that make it feel more like aluminium foil skin.

T3 Void Heavies took like 2 seconds to tear trough iron skin, shields, recharched shields and 90% of my health and i found myself running like a squishy (well squishy would've been so dead there) that just didn't feel like a tank at all. So it's godmode reduced to some extra shields in the long run.

 

The second is that i have no clue when it's gonna tear. No bar, no visual effect, no option to recast it when i feel it might reach its limit soon. I could live with not facetanking everything and relying on mobility (as far as iron shoes allow me) or a dodge here and there because the stagger/poison protection makes him the only frame imo that's really suited for (non stealth) close combat. But most of the time it gets teared apart by something that staggers or even knocks me over and then things get bad really fast. Like getting chainstaggered, shield/energydrained and death will follow soon. This hampers very much with the mobile tanking/clobbering things that rhino is supposed to be made for. It doesn't really help my team when i get roflstomped in a pile of mobs and force my squishy teammates out of cover to save my sorry behind.

 

The other skills are ok i guess. The new stomp has a huge aoe and nice damage for a cc ability. Stomp/Roar combo makes killing things easy in a group, downside would be the huge energy costs of this combo.

I'm not so sure about the charge though, of course it should't outperform slash dash damage wise but the knockdown effect feels somewhat lacking.

If it fails to get myself trough a crowd of baddies i always get the feeling that i just wasted energy. Didn't do much testing after the last update but it often failed to get stompy trough these hoards of (ancient) infested.

[inthephonebox]

Why do people insist on referring to IS as godmode? Its not god mode, its tanking. Has no one else ever played a tank in another game. That's what they do! Or more specifically not what they do: take damage! They are there to hold the field, rez, and distract enemies for other characters with better damage output. Its a role, not godmode. There were plenty of equally cheap, if not more so, abilities back when IS was full invuln + timer. Now there is simply no point in using it. Either enemies are too weak for it to matter at all, or they are too powerful for it to last long enough for it to be a benefit. Its just not efficient as it is and hasn't been since its first nerf. At any instance when you'd think IS would be a good idea, using Rhino Stomp or even Charge would be far more practical and energy efficient. They those abilities don't kill the enemies, they'd be too powerful for your IS to last more than a couple seconds anyway. Sure, the original IS could be drawn out far too long with a full continuity mod. I agree there that is was on the OP side simply because of the duration. So why not just shorten the duration?! Why add an abysmally low damage cap on a skill intended solely for soaking up as much damage as possible? Nothing about Rhino makes any sense anymore. He's just the same as every other frame now. 

[Helljack84]

I was just calling it "godmode" because that's simply how it feels at first, especially when you get swarmed by runners and everyone gets blown to kingdom come. A few levels later you'll join the rest of your team...

 

Oh, and i just gave raptor (nm, but doesn't really matter) a try. It was the most f***ed up thing i ever saw and i felt ridiculously squishy.

There was no "tanking" involved, simply impossible, a few hits reduced me and my aluminium foil skin to smithereens.

Thank god there was a Frost. In essence Snow Globe > Rhino. I seriously regret ever wasting a potato on this one and not saving it for Frost.

[Thaumatos]

I'm waiting for Frost's Snow Globe to have a damage cap placed on it. *trollface*

[Mak_Gohae]

I'm waiting for Frost's Snow Globe to have a damage cap placed on it. *trollface*

 

Frost has one ability that scales, Rhino always had 3 abilities that scale.

Needless to say........................... there is a difference here.

[Helljack84]

A few hours later i feel kind of bad for venting my anger here, but it's just so frustrating. I was grinning like a mad person for hours after they tuned him up a bit, but in the end i'll have to run to big daddy frost like everyone else.

During the raptor battle i could still feel somewhat useful by roaring and stomping moas/crewman that came charging at us. But Banshee could've done all that even better.

Squishy Ember has better "cc" by just killing everything around her and while having better absorb capability as well. So after giving it a few tests the abilities aren't super bad but don't shine in any way either because everything rhino can do other Frames can do even better.

I chose this guy because he was supposed to be tanky, but the most squishy Frames (Ember, Trinity) are much better at tanking than the wannabe tanks in this game.

[Thaumatos]

Its like I've kept telling people here, they turned up the difficulty and Iron Skin's measly 1200 points of absorb is shredded in a second.

All the "Its Okay" people are either hanging out in the back with a Gorgon or playing on low-level maps.

[ShadowGhosting]

If you need to forma to use a maxed aura like me, easier to just take out Roar, and put in maxed Rifle Amp. Similar effect with no energy cost.

I know Rifle Amp only applies to your primary. I'm just cutting corners here.

[Inconmon]

Problem with Ironskin:

You can max it to level 3 while while being low level and be invulnerable. As it absorbs the same amount against level 5 and level 70 enemies, it becomes less and less useful.

 

It needs to be based on a specific values that scales. Either mission level or rhino hitpoints. Or be a %-damage reduction.

 

I'd also prefer for it to take armor into account AND be applied after shields, not before. No point of reducing my buff if I have perfectly good shields which regenerate on their own.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Inconmon

[Thaumatos]

Here's a nice idea...how about we change "Iron Skin" to "Iron Will"?

Iron Will:

* Duration 10/15/20 seconds (increases with Continuity)

* Increased shield recharge rate by 200%

* +100% Resistance to knockdown

* -50% Incoming Toxic damage (stacks with mods and increased by Focus)

* Shields constantly recharge while taking damage for the duration Iron Will

Immunity to knockdown and high resistance to toxic damage for a short duration, immunity to damage unless he's taking LOTS of it. He's not entirely immune but he'll be a heck of a lot harder to take down.

On a side note, it would make for an interesting melee fight combined with Retribution.

[Ss3trnks2]

Is it not possible to have it scale based off of the enemies you are fighting?

[Thaumatos]

Is it not possible to have it scale based off of the enemies you are fighting?

They may be able to scale it based on the level of the mission you enter, but it would still run into the issue of becoming less and less effective in endless defense missions.

[Ss3trnks2]

No, why not just have it scale based off of the level of enemies within* a certain radius of rhino?

Edited July 16, 2013 by Ss3trnks2

[Thaumatos]

No, why not just have it scale based off of the level of enemies within* a certain radius of rhino?

I know what you meant but I'm not sure that's possible. It seems too dynamic. This is why percentages work better than flat numbers.

[Jhonrock]

Problem with Ironskin:

You can max it to level 3 while while being low level and be invulnerable. As it absorbs the same amount against level 5 and level 70 enemies, it becomes less and less useful.

 

It needs to be based on a specific values that scales. Either mission level or rhino hitpoints. Or be a %-damage reduction.

 

I'd also prefer for it to take armor into account AND be applied after shields, not before. No point of reducing my buff if I have perfectly good shields which regenerate on their own.

Good points. Against higher level enemies, the Iron Skin doesn't have much use.

 

But i like the way it is now, very much. I don't want to see them change all of it like they did last time. It just needs some adjustments to be more usefull in higher level missions. No more timer, please.

 

Take the armor value into account and apply the skill after the shields are good ideas. Doing that way, Steel Fiber would have some use.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Jhonrock

[thecolin-]

I use to love rhino for his Iron Skin, typed my &#! off to help this topic to get this topic what it wants but I guess they won't... So I start using Stomp and Roar more... I even took off Iron Skin, with a good redirection you are good to go.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I would love some headbutting with ancient toxics, they changed it so, I changed my play style, If they give us the original Iron Skin then I am back baby but for now I guess we gonna have to deal with this...

Edited July 17, 2013 by ColinMcRaeTR

[Ithloniel]

Here's a nice idea...how about we change "Iron Skin" to "Iron Will"?

Iron Will:

* Duration 10/15/20 seconds (increases with Continuity)

* Increased shield recharge rate by 200%

* +100% Resistance to knockdown

* -50% Incoming Toxic damage (stacks with mods and increased by Focus)

* Shields constantly recharge while taking damage for the duration Iron Will

Immunity to knockdown and high resistance to toxic damage for a short duration, immunity to damage unless he's taking LOTS of it. He's not entirely immune but he'll be a heck of a lot harder to take down.

On a side note, it would make for an interesting melee fight combined with Retribution.

 

This is a cool idea.

 

Is it not possible to have it scale based off of the enemies you are fighting?

 

My thoughts too.  While I understand that having it adapt to the enemy you are currently fighting is close to impossible, I think there is a way to get this kind of effect:

• Duration lasts until depleted
• Ignores 400 / 600 / 800 / 1200 damage. This is increased by Power Strength (Focus).
• Cost to equip of 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 which is then halved by the Polarity slot, rounded up.
• Rhino is invincible for the duration but will be stopped early if you hit the damage limit.
• Ignores all crowd control and debuffs such as stuns, poison and energy drains.
• Can be activated while sliding, jumping, forward flipping, wall running or wall clinging.
• Can be used to both block and pass through Corpus laser doors.
• Does not work on Ogris and Torid self-harm damage.
• Using Iron Skin will not stop the health damage you take in the Vampire Challenge of Nightmare Mode.
• ALL INCOMING DAMAGE IS REDUCED BY ARMOR
• ARMOR GETS A 50/100/150/200% BONUS

This way, as Rhino levels and mods, the overall damage being absorbed by Iron Skin will be lower.  The cap of 1200 won't be hit as easily.  This, in essence, is a true tank frame.  It also gives added importance to Steel Fibre for an Iron Skin build.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Ithloniel

[Jhonrock]

• Duration lasts until depleted
• Ignores 400 / 600 / 800 / 1200 damage. This is increased by Power Strength (Focus).
• Cost to equip of 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 which is then halved by the Polarity slot, rounded up.
• Rhino is invincible for the duration but will be stopped early if you hit the damage limit.
• Ignores all crowd control and debuffs such as stuns, poison and energy drains.
• Can be activated while sliding, jumping, forward flipping, wall running or wall clinging.
• Can be used to both block and pass through Corpus laser doors.
• Does not work on Ogris and Torid self-harm damage.
• Using Iron Skin will not stop the health damage you take in the Vampire Challenge of Nightmare Mode.
• ALL INCOMING DAMAGE IS REDUCED BY ARMOR
• ARMOR GETS A 50/100/150/200% BONUS

This way, as Rhino levels and mods, the overall damage being absorbed by Iron Skin will be lower.  The cap of 1200 won't be hit as easily.  This, in essence, is a true tank frame.  It also gives added importance to Steel Fibre for an Iron Skin build.

This! I just had this same idea and come here to share, but you was faster.

Just add specific armor value for each level of the skill, with the last level with a higher armor value, to compensate the damage of higher level enemies.

 

Perhaps something like this would be good:

 

* The Iron Skin will have the same armor value from Rhino's Warframe. Increasing the Warframe's armor would increase the armor of the Iron Skin too (making the Steel fiber mod extremely useful).

* The Iron Skin ability give a % bonus to Rhino's armor (and thus, for itself) of 50/100/150/200. If it is too much (considering the bonus from the steel fiber mod), perhaps 25/50/75/100 (what with max steel fiber would be 135/160/185/210).

 

210% of armor bonus, in total, would give to the Iron Skin an armor value of 465 points. This would reduce the damage to the Skin from 100 points to 20 points, as an example. If before, the Iron Skin would sustain 12 hits of 100 points, now it could sustain 60 hits of this same enemy.

 

 

Well, don't know if the values here are the right ones, but i think that this is the right way to solve the Iron Skin problem with higher level enemies.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Jhonrock

[Iceholder]

Seconding pretty much everything in the two posts above me.
Iron Skin feels really powerful on low and middle difficulty missions, but on the higher difficulties, even with max IS and Focus, I use it for a few seconds and *poof*. Wouldn't even be so bad on the lower end higher difficulties (if that makes any sense) if I had a visual cue that it was about to go down, and could reapply it right before it wore out.

[sIZE=1]..... Though, if I'm completely honest, I think it's mostly the Heavies that give me problems. Heavy Gunner rips off IS in seconds, Napalm/Grenadier rips it off in a couple of blasts, and Fusion Moas..... just nope.jpg[/sIZE]

[Kynian]

Unacceptable. Any hard-cap will always be useless at high levels - a fixed amount of damage absorbed does not scale. Are we going to see the cap increased every time new, harder content is introduced, or can we actually see this skill function properly like Ember's does at the moment.

 

One excellent suggestion I saw was to make Iron Skin act like the Armour stat, but for shields, and simultaneously cause all damage dealt to be dealt to shields [no poison bypass], whereby activating IS would buff your max shields [either a % or flat increase], it would reduce damage dealt to shields [85% reduction at max rank, no focus], and then this effect lasted as long as you had shields left, but shields would not regenerate. Upon reaching 0 shields, IS deactivates and shields are returned to normal at max capacity.

Quoting Notso from the first page, on this one.

This becomes especially aggravating now that U9 is live. Even on non-high tier planets (such as Uranus) enemies are already eating through Iron Skin like it's nothing. Once somehow enemies managed to kill me THROUGH Iron Skin, with me having max IS and over 800 shields, along with over 400 health. Notso's suggestion, of "armored shields" seem to be a really good fix, only, to me, it should also grant full CC and poison immunity for the duration of the skill

As it is right now, he is turning more and more into a tanky supporter than a Tank.

That said, I did like his new kit. Just Iron Skin still needs work on it, rest is fine imo.

[RenegadeSVK]

Quoting Notso from the first page, on this one.

This becomes especially aggravating now that U9 is live. Even on non-high tier planets (such as Uranus) enemies are already eating through Iron Skin like it's nothing. Once somehow enemies managed to kill me THROUGH Iron Skin, with me having max IS and over 800 shields, along with over 400 health. Notso's suggestion, of "armored shields" seem to be a really good fix, only, to me, it should also grant full CC and poison immunity for the duration of the skill

As it is right now, he is turning more and more into a tanky supporter than a Tank.

That said, I did like his new kit. Just Iron Skin still needs work on it, rest is fine imo.

Exactly this. Just 3-4 Grineer at lvl 50 are enough to kill my Rhino WITH Iron Skin on. I can last with Ember (OH on) in the same situation way longer. Iron Skin needs damage reduction and complete immunity to poison. Toxic ancients are currently a big NOPE for me with any frame :P

[Firstookami]

I know how to fix it :

1) Improve steel fiber mod max value to 200% (because 120% is weak)

2) Make IS work like actually but with absorbed dammages cap equal to 150% of your health and your Armor apply to it.

CONGRATULATION \o/

We now have good habilitie who scal with your build

[Oktober]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Rhino the most popular frame outside the starting 3? 

 

I can see them tweaking it again, if not in update 10, then before that, just to keep us happy. 

[Thaumatos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Rhino the most popular frame outside the starting 3? 

 

I can see them tweaking it again, if not in update 10, then before that, just to keep us happy.

Gotta be careful with those statistics. The starting 3 are "popular" because you can't play anything else early on (without spending $$ on plat). The raw data about frame usage is skewed.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Thaumatos