The need for AI placeholders in PvP

[(XBOX)Tylers Legend]

1 hour ago, Kierlak said:

 

A person shouldn't be rewarded Conclave standing for fighting players they they far outskill (or out cheat).

 

Teshin also says "The biggest fish attracts the hungriest predators" I hope, some day, it will be true.

[Sirabot]

Matches are too long. pacing is bad. Rewards for time investment are very bad. Most time is wasted waiting for matches to start. One day I spent 4 hours trying to do conclave. I managed to get 3 matches. All of which I lost. That sure sounds like something I'll gladly do again. Conclave is dead to me.

[CarrotSalad]

When i had a clan in the past we used to practice rotations, formations and battle patterns against bots. Imo its a neccesity in a team based PVP game *if it wants to be taken seriously*.

It doesnt matter if its too easy or too hard. Whats important is you go in and out with a good and fun experience. Going up against other humans removes allot of control DE has to ensure the experience is good/fun. Because theres always bad humans who will want to spoil everyones fun.

It's especially scary when i see storys like the one in overwatch lately where players were intentionally ddos'ing competitors to get an advantage.

[Rek_Colyks]

I actually really like the idea of bringing AI into conclave.  My experience has been that it's actually fun to play against AI in PvP scenarios.

[EmptyDevil]

3 hours ago, Kierlak said:

 

A person shouldn't be rewarded Conclave standing for fighting players they they far outskill (or out cheat).

I'm sorry, but that is the dumbest thing I've read all day. You really think that justifies adding a way for the Crutch Brigade to cheese and invalidate the Conclave? Just stop. 

A better change is to add another scaling factor to XP. Players that are more skilled will get the standard values you see now when killing players with less skill/rank/ETC. Players that manage to kill someone with more skill/rank/ETC than them will get a hefty bonus for doing so. A person's conclave rank could probably even be visible with a symbol by their name, so those "hungriest predators" know who the "biggest fish" are.

As for cheating(which happens very rarely), that applies to everything in the game. Why should someone be rewarded at all, if they are just going to macro Telos Crutace and run through a tile? Yes, using macros can possibly get you banned.

[Kierlak]

1 hour ago, EmptyDevil said:

I'm sorry, but that is the dumbest thing I've read all day. You really think that justifies adding a way for the Crutch Brigade to cheese and invalidate the Conclave? Just stop. 

A better change is to add another scaling factor to XP. Players that are more skilled will get the standard values you see now when killing players with less skill/rank/ETC. Players that manage to kill someone with more skill/rank/ETC than them will get a hefty bonus for doing so. A person's conclave rank could probably even be visible with a symbol by their name, so those "hungriest predators" know who the "biggest fish" are.

As for cheating(which happens very rarely), that applies to everything in the game. Why should someone be rewarded at all, if they are just going to macro Telos Crutace and run through a tile? Yes, using macros can possibly get you banned.

 

So you don't think players should get rewarded for killing bots that don't challenge them, but they SHOULD get rewarded for killing players that don't challenge them.

 

And yes, I really do think there needs to be an easy way to cheese conclave standing, because PvP in this game is putrid. Those of us who just want a few of the cosmetics should not have to literally suffer to get them. Both sides would win, really, we get our handful of cosmetics and the turbo nerds don't have to worry about non pvpers clogging up their bullet jump aimbot parties. It's win-win.

[(PSN)Radek-98]

8 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

And yes, I really do think there needs to be an easy way to cheese conclave standing, because PvP in this game is putrid. Those of us who just want a few of the cosmetics should not have to literally suffer to get them. Both sides would win, really, we get our handful of cosmetics and the turbo nerds don't have to worry about non pvpers clogging up their bullet jump aimbot parties. It's win-win.

No its not because PvP cosmetics is what makes us dedicated PvP'ers stand out. They should add bots but that DO NOT award any standing because that just rip out the PvP theme and just make it an extension of PvE. The reason they suffer is because they are out of their conform zone and its easier to whine about it than actually getting good at it. We all started the same way and yet here we are. They are not forced to get the so precious skins nor play Conclave, if you don't like it then stay away and pretend that it doesn't exist.

[Heckzu]

15 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

So you don't think players should get rewarded for killing bots that don't challenge them, but they SHOULD get rewarded for killing players that don't challenge them.

I don't see where you're getting this idea from. The person you quoted offered a suggestion for a way to make it very rewarding to face someone better than themselves, not the other way around.

15 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

And yes, I really do think there needs to be an easy way to cheese conclave standing, because PvP in this game is putrid. Those of us who just want a few of the cosmetics should not have to literally suffer to get them. Both sides would win, really, we get our handful of cosmetics and the turbo nerds don't have to worry about non pvpers clogging up their bullet jump aimbot parties. It's win-win

In this scenario, whether or not you suffer is entirely your choice.

Spoiler

 

I have all of the Conclave cosmetics. Did I suffer? No. Did I initially like PvP? No, I was one of those people very against the idea back before DE first implemented PvP. 

So how did I get everything without suffering despite not liking PvP? Simple, I realized I was complete garbage so I played Conclave to get better at the game, obtaining the Celestia Syandana first in order to motivate myself by keeping its flames lit. After that, I gradually got better at the game and began enjoying it, and before I knew it I had all the cosmetics.

 

If you feel that you're suffering when you attempt to earn the cosmetics, then just don't try to earn the cosmetics. If DE releases a prime accessory pack with cosmetics you want, but you can't afford to spend $50, what do you do? You simply don't buy the accessory pack.

[Kierlak]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)TheKiller9805 said:

They should add bots but that DO NOT award any standing because that just rip out the PvP theme and just make it an extension of PvE.

 Then you support making non challenging players not worth any standing and non-counting for challenges too, right? They are just as harmless as bots, maybe even moreso, so why should you get anything out of killing them?

[Kierlak]

6 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

I don't see where you're getting this idea from. The person you quoted offered a suggestion for a way to make it very rewarding to face someone better than themselves, not the other way around.

 

You and I both know that the people I am talking about will never kill any of the hardcore PvPers. The skill gap (and cheat gap) is simply too wide to ever be bridged, so it doesn't matter how much more they are worth, they are in no danger.

 

13 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

If you feel that you're suffering when you attempt to earn the cosmetics, then just don't try to earn the cosmetics.

 

Or, the cosmetics could just be put on the market as well, and we wouldn't have this dilemma

[(PSN)Radek-98]

17 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

Then you support making non challenging players not worth any standing and non-counting for challenges too, right? They are just as harmless as bots, maybe even moreso, so why should you get anything out of killing them?

Because we don't get to choose whom to kill do we? Unless that person has some kind of honor code that he/she doesn't kill people with less skill and by comparison you mean that Conclave veterans should't get standing for killing almost everyone in Conclave because they are so few. We kill the first person thats on sight and thats it. Heres the different between bots and people however low skilled they are, bots are programmed to act to a specific way depending of the situation and knowing the AI in here, they are not very smart, players in the other hand, are people that think the same way as we do so their behavior may be different and not very predictable.

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

Just now, (PS4)TheKiller9805 said:

Because we don't get to choose whom to kill do we? Unless that person has some kind of honor code that he/she doesn't kill people with less skill and by comparison you mean that Conclave veterans should't get standing for killing almost everyone in Conclave because they are so few. We kill the first person thats on sight and thats it. Heres the different between bots and people however low skilled they are, bots are programmed to act to a specific way depending of the situation and knowing the AI in here, they are not very smart, players in the other hand, are people that think the same way as we do so their behavior may be different and not very predictable.

dont forget the ai in the game is terrible 

[Heckzu]

21 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

 Then you support making non challenging players not worth any standing and non-counting for challenges too, right? They are just as harmless as bots, maybe even moreso, so why should you get anything out of killing them?

Players learn and get better. Bots don't.

10 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

You and I both know that the people I am talking about will never kill any of the hardcore PvPers. The skill gap (and cheat gap) is simply too wide to ever be bridged, so it doesn't matter how much more they are worth, they are in no danger.

Most players don't play 1 v 1. This means that even if a player is bad, they still have a chance of finishing off a much better player who had previously engaged another player. And in the event that the bad player does, then such a suggested reward system might help that player earn standing at a decent rate despite the skill differences.

12 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

Or, the cosmetics could just be put on the market as well, and we wouldn't have this dilemma

Why don't you also ask for raid Sekharas , Stratos Emblems, and Prime Accessories to also be available on the market for plat?

[Kierlak]

52 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

Why don't you also ask for raid Sekharas , Stratos Emblems, and Prime Accessories to also be available on the market for plat?

 

I'd be fine with all that to be available on the market. I'm not the kind of person that wants something to be kept exclusive just because. PvPers get the cool looking PvE stuff, and vice versa. Everyone wins.

[Heckzu]

19 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

 

I'd be fine with all that to be available on the market. I'm not the kind of person that wants something to be kept exclusive just because. PvPers get the cool looking PvE stuff, and vice versa. Everyone wins.

How are Conclave cosmetics unjustifiably exclusive? Players who have them earned them. PvP players get PvP stuff. PvE players get PvE stuff. Players that play both get both. But you want PvE-only players to get hard earned PvP cosmetics for no effort? How self entitled can you be?

[Kierlak]

11 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

How are Conclave cosmetics unjustifiably exclusive? Players who have them earned them. PvP players get PvP stuff. PvE players get PvE stuff. Players that play both get both. But you want PvE-only players to get hard earned PvP cosmetics for no effort? How self entitled can you be?

 

They are unjustifiably exclusive because they are locked behind the most cancerous part of the game. A section of the game so universally hated, that even with all those cosmetics as bait, it has something like sub-2% participation. Nothing should be locked behind something that completely despised by the playerbase.

[TheScytale]

27 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

They are unjustifiably exclusive because they are locked behind the most cancerous part of the game. A section of the game so universally hated, that even with all those cosmetics as bait, it has something like sub-2% participation. Nothing should be locked behind something that completely despised by the playerbase.

Conclave isn't your cup of tea, and there's nothing wrong with that. But stop coming up with some secret code of honor for developers as to what rewards to put behind what part, whether you see it as cancerous or not. Raid rewards are made for raids, archwing rewards are made for archwing, sortie rewards are made for sorties, conclave rewards are made for conclave. You might as well ask for Rivens, Nitain or augments to be on the market.

[Stormdragon]

4 hours ago, Kierlak said:

They are unjustifiably exclusive because they are locked behind the most cancerous part of the game.

That's your opinion. I've found PvE way more cancerous than PvP thanks to miramulors, WoF embers, Macro'd Telos Boltace and other press 1234 to win builds and cheesy setups that encourage being afk instead of actually playing the game. And even if I did agree with youe point, having some gorgeous cosmetics locked behind a cancerous mode only increases the reasons for them tostay exclusive since not any player and their momma will be going inside there, so those doing it deserve to get something for it. I also hate archwing, but in order to get atlas I had to fight the jordas golem over and over again; and I didn't come to the forums asking for it to become available through conclave sanding instead, nor you will see me doing something like that for the arcanes or the sekhara obtained from The jordas veredict because I understand that It's my choice not touching the content gating said items.

4 hours ago, Kierlak said:

ction of the game so universally hated, that even with all those cosmetics as bait, it has something like sub-2% participation

I agree that the conclave community is small, but it's growing over time; however, I'd like to see where those numbers come from and how long has it been since they were shown.

4 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Nothing should be locked behind something that completely despised by the playerbase.

As you said, It's a bait to encourage players to go and try PvP; making them obtainable out of it would simply defeat their purpose.

Stop being so self entitled, If you want arena shooter against some bots there's always Rathuum (it even uses one of the conclave maps!)

[Kierlak]

6 hours ago, -----LegioN----- said:

I agree that the conclave community is small, but it's growing over time

 

It's microscopic. I don't really know if it's actually growing or not, but lets just assume it is. How many of those players adding to the conclave 'community' actually want to have anything to do with PvP? How many are just suffering through it to get some cosmetics, and will then instantly leave it and never return the microsecond they have whatever they came for, and will hate it EVEN MORE than they did before? Does that sound like a healthy community to you?

 

7 hours ago, -----LegioN----- said:

As you said, It's a bait to encourage players to go and try PvP

 It's failing, miserably. Even with bait, it's overwhelmingly hated and ignored because conclave is bad PvP at it's core. As soon as you are forced to exit recruit conditioning, the meta is full on baboon aids, players know this, and they shun it as hard as they can.

[-_Highlander_-]

Yes please implement this as fast as possible .. 

Waiting on matchmaking now is the same as seeing my time flying by whlie the event isnt staying long , and i still need the ornament 

thanks for this event DEvs so far so good now the rest 

People dont stay after beeing killed once and left instant no way to go :(

So pls yes add the AI to the Quick steel event or not .. maby an future thing idk

i just wanna have my ornament 

[Stormdragon]

19 hours ago, Kierlak said:

It's microscopic. I don't really know if it's actually growing or not, but lets just assume it is. How many of those players adding to the conclave 'community' actually want to have anything to do with PvP? How many are just suffering through it to get some cosmetics, and will then instantly leave it and never return the microsecond they have whatever they came for, and will hate it EVEN MORE than they did before? Does that sound like a healthy community to you?

Most of the players interested only on cosmetics don't even bother to join the community on the discord server, a small but healthy community were newcomers are free to ask for any kind of advice and expect a proper answer from more experienced and top players (And if they did, they would most likely end staying since it's an amazing place to hang out) I guess they simply play and "suffer for being forced to play conclave in order to get skins that promote this mode" instead of looking for advice... after all they don't even care about the mode, why would they bother to get good?

The whole conclave community may be microscopic when compared to the 26 millions of registered L-users, but it doesn't take away the fact that it's growing anyways.

19 hours ago, Kierlak said:

It's failing, miserably. Even with bait, it's overwhelmingly hated and ignored because conclave is bad PvP at it's core. As soon as you are forced to exit recruit conditioning, the meta is full on baboon aids, players know this, and they shun it as hard as they can.

The amount of players doing the QS pseudo event if they want nothing but the rewards, and players doing conclave only for the skins you pointed before whispers "success!" The hate comes mostly from the inability to adapt their mindsets from "i'm the god on this battlefield" to "I'm just another fighter in this arena" since the pve gameplay doesn't need any kind of skill other than getting a decent build and set-up a proper team in order to succeed.

Funny thing is, you most likely have never or rarely played out of RC, since most players there understand that what you're calling meta is actually myth and that every weapon and warframe is fit for different purposes and play styles in a game mode that, unlike pve, is actually balanced.

And btw, you're showing even further lack of information since you're not even forced to leave RC. (Even tough players should be forced out of there after getting certain experience to prevent them from ruining the actual newbies)

Edited February 8, 2017 by -----LegioN-----

[Kierlak]

6 hours ago, -----LegioN----- said:

after all they don't even care about the mode, why would they bother to get good?

 

Well, that's exactly it: We do not care about Warframe PvP in the first place. It's just a cancerous hoop we are forced to jump through if we want some skins. We want it over and done with so we can leave and never come back.

 

6 hours ago, -----LegioN----- said:

The amount of players doing the QS pseudo event if they want nothing but the rewards, and players doing conclave only for the skins you pointed before whispers "success!"

 

Dead lobbies everywhere. It's actually impossible to do CTC challenges, no matter the time of day. That definitely means that the numbers of people doing conclave for the skins is REALLY low, because if there were a lot of them, there wouldn't be all these dead lobbies.

 

6 hours ago, -----LegioN----- said:

Funny thing is, you most likely have never or rarely played out of RC, since most players there understand that what you're calling meta is actually myth

 

Right, so I just imagined all those nonsense bulletjump aimglide 1 shots from bows and sniper rifles. Look, I get that you want to defend your PvP, but don't go denying reality to do it.

 

6 hours ago, -----LegioN----- said:

And btw, you're showing even further lack of information since you're not even forced to leave RC.

 

Then tell me the secret code to turn mine back on, because it turned itself off without consulting me first.

[Witchydragon]

10 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Well, that's exactly it: We do not care about Warframe PvP in the first place. It's just a cancerous hoop we are forced to jump through if we want some skins. We want it over and done with so we can leave and never come back.

Same. The only reason I play the game is to get skins, that's why I spent so much money buying skins. Conclave skins, however, can't be bought. I don't want to play Conclave to get skins, I just want to get skins, please let me get them without having to jump through hoops like playing with other people, doing special event missions, or going to Tennocon. All these needless "gameplay experiences" are not worth the effort to get the exclusive skins. I can buy everything else in the game: slots, warframes, the Hema, weapon skins, syandanas, mods, prime parts, but not Conclave skins. Consistency is key. They were consistent in making the PvP event focused on cheese and repetition like every other event in the past, why can't they be consistent in their monetization strategies.

 

/s

Edited February 9, 2017 by Witchydragon
/s for clarity

[Heckzu]

5 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

Same. The only reason I play the game is to get skins, that's why I spent so much money buying skins. Conclave skins, however, can't be bought. I don't want to play Conclave to get skins, I just want to get skins, please let me get them without having to jump through hoops like playing with other people, doing special event missions, or going to Tennocon. All these needless "gameplay experiences" are not worth the effort to get the exclusive skins. I can buy everything else in the game: slots, warframes, the Hema, weapon skins, syandanas, mods, prime parts, but not Conclave skins. Consistency is key. They were consistent in making the PvP event focused on cheese and repetition like every other event in the past, why can't they be consistent in their monetization strategies.

It was actually difficult for me to make out whether or not this is satire. 

If it is, it needs a "/sarcasm" at the end.

[Kierlak]

11 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

Same. The only reason I play the game is to get skins, that's why I spent so much money buying skins. Conclave skins, however, can't be bought. I don't want to play Conclave to get skins, I just want to get skins, please let me get them without having to jump through hoops like playing with other people, doing special event missions, or going to Tennocon. All these needless "gameplay experiences" are not worth the effort to get the exclusive skins. I can buy everything else in the game: slots, warframes, the Hema, weapon skins, syandanas, mods, prime parts, but not Conclave skins. Consistency is key. They were consistent in making the PvP event focused on cheese and repetition like every other event in the past, why can't they be consistent in their monetization strategies.

 

/s

 

Good work beating up that strawman. Gameplay experiences need a particular something in order for them to be acceptable to a playerbase.

 

21 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Well, that's exactly it: We do not care about Warframe PvP in the first place. It's just a cancerous hoop we are forced to jump through if we want some skins. We want it over and done with so we can leave and never come back.

 

Why do we not care about Warframe PvP in the first place?

 

Because it isn't fun. If it was actually fun, there might actually be a non-microscopic number of people playing it.

 

Why isn't it fun?

 

Because there's no matchmaking. You are, in almost every single game, forced to fight people you have no business being forced to fight.

 

Why is there no matchmaking?

 

Because there aren't enough players to support a functioning matchmaking ladder.

 

Why aren't there enough players?

 

Quote

Because it isn't fun.

 

If PvP were actually fun, and you were fighting against people roughly your own skill level, most (not all, but most) complaints against it would go away. The vast majority of players in this game are fine with grinding things out, unless that grind goes over the line. Hema goes over that line. Mesa goes over that line. Conclave goes over that line.