The whole "It's a free game so stop complaining" people.

[Irorone]

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's because people try to frame the Hema cost as nefarious greed instead of maybe just a bad decision.

The forums have a way of turning everything into some convoluted plot to bleed our pockets, despite the fact that there are much more efficient and direct ways for DE to do so if that was their true intentions.

 

Simply put I don't know DE's intentions.

That said it's not surprising when accusations start to pop up when a certain free acquisition method is literally made minimum ten times harder than anything previously comparable and the plat cost hasn't seen a similar inflation.  Didn't help that DE said the numbers were correct when making fairly broad assumptions on the numbers they said they used to determine the cost.

So is it an intentional cash grab by DE?  Don't know, but the framework is very much there for it to be exactly that.

P.S. I've still seen those same "counterarguments" that I listed thrown even on the purely mathematical posts in that thread and others with different topics.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Irorone

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

What are you talking about? Your comment has nothing to do with what the OP wrote at all.

It's not about whether anyone has invested in Warframe or not.

The OP is calling out people who try to shut down complaints with "it's a free (to play) game" as though that means it is somehow exempt from any criticism.

Free-to-play is just a business model that some companies choose to use for their games, they're not charities, they expect to earn money just the same as buy-to-play or sub-based games, and they can be criticised for their decisions just the same as well.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it.

DE can be criticized, but I have the right call into direct question the mindset of anyone who plays this game on someone else's dime.

It may not be PC or popular or convenient but the mindset of entitlement skews perspective and perception when it comes to expectation.

So does a lack of business acumen when it comes to profits and revenues.

DE is allowing everyone the right to express their criticisms about gameplay, but some are far more valid than others, unpopular as that may be.

So yes, when I see OP's content, I have a right to ask those very salient questions so that I can properly weight said content.

NOTHING is free.  Founders gave it life and those who pay real-world, hard-earned money into it keep it alive and growing.

DE is trying to essentially do 4 things:

1.  Keep paying customers

2.  Attract and turn non-paying customers into paying customers.

3.  Create new revenue streams.

4.  Manage costs.

Some people never intend to put any skin into the game, no matter how good a product DE delivers, but freely put DE on blast when their expectations aren't met.

Edited December 29, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Simply put I don't know DE's intentions.

That said it's not surprising when accusations start to pop up when a certain free acquisition method is literally made minimum ten times harder than anything previously comparable and the plat cost hasn't seen a similar inflation.  Didn't help that DE said the numbers were correct when making fairly broad assumptions on the numbers they said they used to determine the cost.

So is it an intentional cash grab by DE?  Don't know, but the framework is very much there for it to be exactly that.

P.S. I've still seen those same "counterarguments" that I listed thrown even on the purely mathematical posts in that thread.

It probably is greed.

...But I wouldn't categorize it as "nefarious" (or even bad).

DE has an obligation to make money. Their employees can't pay bills or feed their kids with happy feelings.

What truly boggles my mind is the notion that people think they shouldn't have to plug money into a game they like playing.

The best litmus for DE is whether or not players are purchasing the item or not is if you don't agree with the cost or the grind to get the item, don't get it.

Doing anything else ratifies their business decision. 

[SilvaDreams]

And so far after four pages no one has given the validation to why people always use it.

 

In free to play games you either pay with your wallet or you pay with your time.

[Irorone]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

It probably is greed.

...But I wouldn't categorize it as "nefarious" (or even bad).

DE has an obligation to make money. Their employees can't pay bills or feed their kids with happy feelings.

What truly boggles my mind is the notion that people think they shouldn't have to plug money into a game they like playing.

The best litmus for DE is whether or not players are purchasing the item or not is if you don't agree with the cost or the grind to get the item, don't get it.

Doing anything else ratifies their business decision. 

I can understand that they want to get paid.  They are working on the game, pretty hard at various times even.

For all the transparency they're lauded for it's pretty safe to say they don't tell us everything and in some cases it raises ethical questions about them.

Yes DE has made this their livelihood, however that means they need to understand why people are willing to spend money on the game.  First, skins like Grinding Gear Games' Path of Exile they make money through purely cosmetic upgrades in effect not breaching the limits of player power with a wallet prerequisite.  Second wait skipping, this is ONLY tolerated in warframe because the natural waiting times usually aren't insufferable, but when they increase those wait times through RNG and resource hikes people are gonna want to know why.

I don't mind FTP players really.  I know this is gonna sound mildly insane but in a manner of speaking I am one.  Literally the only things I have ever bought with plat were three skin packs (the first DotD skin pack, rhino palatine set, saryn set), I have never once spent plat to rush an item or straight purchase a piece of gear from the cash shop.  Even then the FTP members are important because they don't necessarily stay FTP or through word of mouth they bring other people to the game who in turn might spend money for plat etc.

[Irorone]

8 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

And so far after four pages no one has given the validation to why people always use it.

 

In free to play games you either pay with your wallet or you pay with your time.

Yup but just like with market prices when somebody says something costs ten times more now, regardless of the currency in question, because "I said so" makes that validation much more dodgy in the eyes of many.

At the end of it there's also a third option, don't pay at all.  Literally the only one's hurt by this one are DE.  Just because someone is a FTP doesn't mean they're gonna stay that way.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Irorone

[SilvaDreams]

6 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Yup but just like with market prices when somebody says something costs ten times more now, regardless of the currency in question, because "I said so" makes that that validation much more dodgy in the eyes of many.

At the end of it there's also a third option, don't pay at all.  Literally the only one's hurt by this one are DE.  Just because someone is a FTP doesn't mean they're gonna stay that way.

True, but honestly the requirements for the Hema aren't that bad.

If anything I think the other research was far too easy, my clan would have them done and going within an hour of them being released.

Now people are actually having to put effort into it and they don't like it.

[Irorone]

19 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

True, but honestly the requirements for the Hema aren't that bad.

If anything I think the other research was far too easy, my clan would have them done and going within an hour of them being released.

Now people are actually having to put effort into it and they don't like it.

For certain people it is.  There's a 100+ page thread up right now about that particular subject.

Only because you had most of the requirements stockpiled amongst your clan already.  Others didn't and many had veteran players of well over 1k hours at least in regards to hema.  You can potentially argue that the others were too low but by the same metric I could still say Hema's is unnecessarily massive.

Also you literally just pulled one the things I said is used to shutdown feedback even if math becomes involved.  Even under the most ideal circumstances the resource cost went up by 10x per clan member, many aren't part of such clans and have IRL reasons for not being said "ideally active/populated" clan.  Saying that "people are actually having to put effort into it and they don't like it" is exactly the whitewashing that spawned this thread.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Irorone

[(PSN)Silverback73]

4 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

True, but honestly the requirements for the Hema aren't that bad.

If anything I think the other research was far too easy, my clan would have them done and going within an hour of them being released.

Now people are actually having to put effort into it and they don't like it.

Stop spouting Truth.  Are you insane?

[SilvaDreams]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Stop spouting Truth.  Are you insane?

Nope I am perfectly sane, it's everyone else who is insane! 

[chromaticv1]

2 year-er here. I haven't gave DE a single penny and I have most of the platinum-only things in my inventory,(Accessories, weapons, etc). So yah it's definitely free.

Edited December 29, 2016 by chromaticv1

[Irorone]

Just now, chromaticv1 said:

2 year-er here. I haven't gave DE a single platinum and I have most of the platinum-only things in my inventory,(Accessories, weapons, etc). So yah it's definitely free.

If you do a lot of trading with either people who have purchased said platinum or have done said aforementioned trading with people who purchased plat.

But fair enough there is still the "free" obtaining method of cash items but ONLY if you engage in trading (or get extremely lucky on a devstream plat giveaway).

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's because people try to frame the Hema cost as nefarious greed instead of maybe just a bad decision.

The forums have a way of turning everything into some convoluted plot to bleed our pockets, despite the fact that there are much more efficient and direct ways for DE to do so if that was their true intentions.

 

^this

[Rhekemi]

"It's a free game" is a stupid, non-constructive, and lazy counter-argument to constructive feedback.

That an item is free doesn't shield it from constructive criticism, especially when members can pay for the product if they choose. It's still a product and its developers openly request constructive feedback for it.

"It's a free game" is a nonsense answer, whether those who say it say it seriously or to troll you--it is a nonsense answer.

"You can always stop playing" is closer to a real answer or even "why do you still play the game if you hate it" as it invites the critic to respond with reasons, logic.

"It's a free game" does not and is nonsense. 

That said, "it's a free game" also does not hinder anyone from offering constructive feedback, and creating a topic for it was completely unnecessary.

Simply don't let "it's a free game" deter you if you know what you're saying, why you're saying it, and that other members and DE needs to hear your feedback. Why would it deter you?

If it doesn't (you tell me) then you're only complaining, and this is a meta-complaint about responses you (or others) get, and is therefore still not constructive.

When giving feedback or advice (and when receiving it) confidence within yourself is incredibly important.

Not arrogance, but confidence.

When you make an argument, know the facts and supporting evidence of that argument. Know how you will counter valid counter-arguments. Have a clear purpose and goal for your feedback. Don't make it emotional if you can help it. Offer it constructively, and while you shouldn't get defensive, be prepared to defend your stand and hold your ground if you are right. Also be prepared to cede ground if you have been proven wrong.

Then when people make comments to get under your skin, ignore them, or respond appropriately.

To any offended by this post, my aim was not to offend any of you. I did aim to be quite blunt. Apologies for not offering more tact, in that case.

Cheers.

[Madway7]

11 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Not only is it a free game, you can trade for its premium currency. 

So essentially [all] colors, [cosmetics], catalyst and slots are also free if you want it to be

Targis Prime and all of the other prime accessories can only be bought for cash. Also Tennogen on PC, sure it's community driven, but still, cash only.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Madway7

[(XBOX)Ph4nt0mL0rdX]

Alot of people don't know what legitimate feedback is they just complain about things that would have far more negative consequences if changed and they don't understand that 

[ZeroGenmu]

5 hours ago, chromaticv1 said:

2 year-er here. I haven't gave DE a single penny and I have most of the platinum-only things in my inventory,(Accessories, weapons, etc). So yah it's definitely free.

Agreed, I've played for 2 years also and I've made over 10k in plat just through trading it's definitely free. However I wouldn't have any plat or the cosmetics I wanted if not for the people who actually do pay for this game. They allow platinum to flow through the economy, as well as keep the game alive, so I'm thankful to them as well.

[ChuckMaverick]

16 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ph4nt0mL0rdX said:

Alot of people don't know what legitimate feedback is they just complain about things that would have far more negative consequences if changed and they don't understand that 

That's still legitimate feedback.

Just because people are ignorant of certain aspects of game design (and honestly, you could say that about anyone, even devs) it doesn't invalidate their perspective.

[xLightSwordx]

 Some people use this argument because some people doesn't care about the health state of the game or simply don't want something they like to change, in the other hand when people start to complain and show some constructive feedback I believe they want the game to keep healthy longer and longer, the truth is DE needs money to keep the game alive and they make some decisions that sometimes everybody loves it and sometimes everybody hates it and WE ARE their investidors if they are launching something with poor quality we have the right to complain and if they make anything great,beautiful and stable we should send our appreciations, whining and trying to deconstruct any argument without a proper conversation and brainstorming about it, is just like you said OP is regressive.

 

Ps: sorry for my English I'm not native

[Hypernaut1]

6 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

True, but honestly the requirements for the Hema aren't that bad.

If anything I think the other research was far too easy, my clan would have them done and going within an hour of them being released.

Now people are actually having to put effort into it and they don't like it.

When I started my own clan I was surprised at how easy it was to complete all research solo.

Only forma became a squeeze after a while

[ChuckMaverick]

10 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

When I started my own clan I was surprised at how easy it was to complete all research solo.

Only forma became a squeeze after a while

I agree, and I'd be fine with increasing clan research costs across the board by a moderate amount, rather than ridiculously hiking up the cost for one weapon.

[Wheretheyatdoe]

Warframe? More like Betaframe, like the players

[trunks013]

I understand that the classic line "its a free game so stop complaining" can be annoying from an argument percpective.

But i feel the urge to point out that this false argument almost always come up when non constructive feedback or personal attack occurs. Like a reminder that we can do those super dump arguing both sides. 

Look at steve twitter you will see him answer something like "but its a free game i made for you" but this was an answer at an nasty personal attack from a guy saying the game is bad and he should get fired.

 

Honestly i think its not the first thing to solve. Once the other two would be solved this problem will most likely vanish be itself.

Edited December 29, 2016 by trunks013

[ChuckMaverick]

14 minutes ago, trunks013 said:

But i feel the urge to point out that this false argument almost always come up when non constructive feedback or personal attack occurs. Like a reminder that we can do those super dump arguing both sides.

Except you haven't really pointed it out, just made an unsubstantiated statement.

Do you have sources to back up that claim?

[ArbitUHM]

46 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Except you haven't really pointed it out, just made an unsubstantiated statement.

Do you have sources to back up that claim?

And where are your sources? And the OP's?