[Spoilers] Powercreep.. again (Kubrows and Helminth Chargers)

[Chakravikari]

So you want the ONLY decent thing to come out of this worthless infection to be completely removed so that it has absolutely nothing redeeming about it? 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Chakravikari said:

So you want the ONLY decent thing to come out of this worthless infection to be completely removed so that it has absolutely nothing redeeming about it? 

who said get rid of the helminth charger?  OP asked for a buff to kubrows, and a rework of their AI and stat scaling...  He's certainly not the first to justly request these things, and the introduction of the Helminth has only aggravated the situation further.

[JalakBali]

For every post complaining about a new thing being stronger than the previous reigning champion, there's a post complaining another new thing is not stronger than the current reigning champion.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

I think if the shields are removed and the armor slightly bumped up then that'd be a fair trade off. So basically just make it like the Inaros/Nidus of kubrows

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

I think if the shields are removed and the armor slightly bumped up then that'd be a fair trade off. So basically just make it like the Inaros/Nidus of kubrows

except that'd further limit which warframes it's useful with.  It's bad enough that kubrows don't work with most casters because high-end caster builds have few survivability mods, if any.  while it's base stats are higher than other kubrows, it's still relying on your warframe stats for survival. 

[quebirt]

On 12/29/2016 at 1:58 PM, Rush95 said:

Today marks a full week after Nidus was released, which means players who got infected on the 1st day have their cysts fully grown. You can now create a Helminth Charger by draining the cyst on your Kubrow Incubator. The model appears to be the same one used by normal infested chargers and by Phorid, which means it only serves as a placeholder at the moment (this is evidenced by the lack of collar and mismatched Kubrow armors). 

However, once again DE graced us with a direct upgrade to Kubrows instead of a sidegrade. And no, unfortunately it's not a small one. Let's grab a Sunika Kubrow, arguably the damage breed, and let's compare it to a Helminth Charger:

 

Sunika Kubrow, the ''superior war animal bred for ferocity and aggression'' companion, has:

Health: 330 at rank 30

Shield: 270 at rank 30

Armor: 50

Slash dmg: 120.0

Crit chance: 10.0%

Crit dmg: 1.6x

Status: 5.0%

 

Helminth Charger, the ''infested pet bred from the cyst'' companion, has

Health: 590 at rank 30

Shield: 265 at rank 30

Armor: 150

Slash dmg: 304.0

Toxin dmg: 45.6

Crit chance: 10.0%

Crit dmg: 3.0x

Status: 5.0%

 

So yeah, Helminth Charger is better in almost every stat compared to Sunika and to most Kubrows. Granted, Helminth Chargers seem to be fully damage oriented, while Kubrows have different breeds for different purposes (Raksa shields, Chesa fetches, Huras stealths, Sahasa digs, Sunika hunts). But at the same time, aren't Kubrows supposed to be the high damage option among companions? Isn't this the reason why they don't bring as much utility as Sentinels do? The reason why they don't have Vacuum or other neat mods like Guardian? Because at the moment, Kavats' utility seems like the superior option to Kubrows' utillity, and now they got surpassed by damage and tankiness by another Companion pet: Helminth Chargers. Not only that, their A.I. still seems to be the same, which is a funky/glitchy mess. 

At the end of the day, the three companion types (Kubrow-Kavat-Helminth) use mods that are based on our stats, and thus their stat growth isn't as dependent on level as it is on the Warframes we have equipped. However, the stat differences are quite noticeable, making the Kavasa Prime Collar seem worthless, and Kubrows even more inferior. Remember how we were supposed to get some Kubrow changes and buffs to make them more useful? Like that ''pack leader'' attack that Sheldon and Steve shared? We never got any of those. Instead, we got a direct upgrade.

 

TL;DR Kubrows are inferior to Sentinels and Kavats in utillity, and inferior to Helminth Chargers in damage and tankiness. Nobody wants the ''middle point'' (Kubrows) between damage and utillity when they can't do neither as useful or sustainable in combat, especially when Helminth Chargers aren't difficult to get. Kubrows are, at the moment, the Oberon of Pets. 

EDIT: Cleared up the post a bit so it's simpler to understand.

 

Here's the thing though. I doubt they devoted a lot of time to developing this thing (as is evident by all the placeholders and reused AI/Animations). It's a little bonus "thing" that came in with Nidus. They didn't do anything to change the current Kubrow/Kavat, so I don't understand all the "this is anti kubrow" grief. Kubrow DO still have functions that the charger doesn't. Not everything in the game is worth using, and frankly kubrows never really have been anyway. 

[Rush95]

On 1/2/2017 at 6:37 PM, quebirt said:

Here's the thing though. I doubt they devoted a lot of time to developing this thing (as is evident by all the placeholders and reused AI/Animations). It's a little bonus "thing" that came in with Nidus. They didn't do anything to change the current Kubrow/Kavat, so I don't understand all the "this is anti kubrow" grief. Kubrow DO still have functions that the charger doesn't. Not everything in the game is worth using, and frankly kubrows never really have been anyway. 

It's the fact that the Helminth Charger seems to be their first attempt at a useful 'Kubrow' and not the Kubrows themselves that bothers me. They could just buff Pets into a more useful spot instead of releasing more. And then there are people who want Sentinels to be even more useful than they already are. Everytime I read a ''Please buff Sentinels'' or ''Let Sentinels be revived'' post, I just think ''Are these guys serious? It takes away the only thing Kubrows have better than Sentinels, besides tankiness. Not even damage is worth it''.

[ReaverKane]

On 31/12/2016 at 10:23 PM, Vysaek said:

So, a few hours ago my gf and I where trying the new pet and l noticed something mid mission. It seems, because of a reason i dont know about, the charger changes it's size. My gf charger is a bit taller than mine, when i noticed "my-little-tumour" had the tallest size a kubrow can achieve. Size seemed to change with dead again.

Anyone else noticed this? It's a bug or something about the pet se dont know about?

As far as i can tell its gender-based. Male Chargers are larger than Females.

If you're talking about the same Charger changing sizes back and forth, they resize to their opponent when doing finisher moves.

Edited January 5, 2017 by ReaverKane
Forgot a point.

[Darkmatt3r]

What are you asking here actually ?

[Vermitore]

I think Kubrows and Kavats and the Charger should have a genealogy feature. I mean, a maxed out organic should have, say, +30% stats over a sentinel because of the investment involved, and you should be able to breed them to have increasingly better stats until they are maxed out after like, say, 20 generations or something? If you play it right, that is. I think that would be a fair reward taking into account the time and effort invested. Also, stats should be randomised for the first generation within a 40% margin to foster statistical diversity whilst maintaining statistical parity at the same time. It would also add things to do at little extra developmental cost and create an opportunity to pitch plat by reworking an existing feature in an engrossing and competitive way.

[Mak_Gohae]

On 12/29/2016 at 1:58 PM, Rush95 said:

Kubrows are inferior to Sentinels and Kavats in utillity,

This means vacuum, doesnt it?

[Rush95]

6 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This means vacuum, doesnt it?

Unfortunately it doesn't mean just Vacuum, although it does include it. To sumarize:

-Chesa's main feature is Fetch, which can be done by any Sentinel now thanks to Universal Vacuum. Also in a much better fashion due to Kubrow AI.

-Raksa's main feature is Protect, which can be done by any Sentinel thanks to Guardian. It's also instantaneous compared to Raksa's Protect.

-Carrier does Sahasa's job better. Coupled with Vacuum, it overwrites two different Kubrows at the same time.

-Wyrm competes firmly with Raksa's job, due to differences between Crow Dispersion and Howl. Crowd Dispersion works at closer range and with a lower cooldown (knocking back and ragdolling enemies), Howl works at a much higher range but also higher cooldown, while simultaneously making enemies run away.

-Huras does a better job than Shade (credit where it's due); It cloaks a lot better with Stalk than Shade does with Ghost, while offering more damage than Shade's weapon does.

-Sentinel weapons are interchangeable (except Deconstructor) and mod-able (thus being able to deal different elemental procs and addapt to each situation), while Kubrows have to sacrifice their own mod slots to deal more damage and are stuck at melee range with a bad AI. Not only this, it takes a fully forma'd Kubrow to fit in all mods available, while Sentinels require less (around 2 or 3 Formas).

-Sunika is able to focus high value targets mid-fights... which unfortunately can be done by Sweeper/Sweeper Prime's spread with a status build, also equipable on any Sentinel. And now comes Helmith Charger to almost inutilize this breed.

-This isn't really a direct comparison about utillity, but.. resource costs and maintenence, while easy to maintain for Veterans, are a complete ''turnoff'' for players. If they're supposed to be high-level content, gated by time and resources, they don't really reflect that.

 

The only examples I can't give are related to Dethcube (damage), Helios (utillity) and Djinn (unknown to me).. even though, unfortunately, the Sentinels mentioned here already shame almost every Kubrow breed by some margin. I don't want to dramatize how Kubrows are at the moment, but let's be real: Sentinels will always be more used and there's a reason for that besides Vacuum (other type of Sentinels were already used before it was turned into an 'Universal' mod, although in a much less fashion). Now it just seems worse, especially with that A.I. bringing them down. A system to give our pets commands would be a really good step in the right direction, but once again, it's just forgotten content in DE's vast sea of powercreep'd material. I'm not asking for everything to be top tier, I just want Kubrows to get the recognition they deserved (as said by DE themselves) and make them more of a 'choice' and less of a sacrifice (mostly because 'dogs are cute'). Being able to revive our Kubrows and have them tank doesn't mean much to me if all they can do is be a meatshield and ocasionally deal damage (which they barely do thanks to that gruesome AI, even worse compared to the new Helminth Charger's stats and abillities).

Again, not to dramatize, they have a fair amount of use and aren't completely useless (that's not what I'm going for), but they do need serious work if our time and resources are supposed to be worth it.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rush95

[Mak_Gohae]

6 hours ago, Rush95 said:

Unfortunately it doesn't mean just Vacuum, although it does include it. To sumarize:

-Chesa's main feature is Fetch, which can be done by any Sentinel now thanks to Universal Vacuum. Also in a much better fashion due to Kubrow AI.

-Raksa's main feature is Protect, which can be done by any Sentinel thanks to Guardian. It's also instantaneous compared to Raksa's Protect.

-Carrier does Sahasa's job better. Coupled with Vacuum, it overwrites two different Kubrows at the same time.

-Wyrm competes firmly with Raksa's job, due to differences between Crow Dispersion and Howl. Crowd Dispersion works at closer range and with a lower cooldown (knocking back and ragdolling enemies), Howl works at a much higher range but also higher cooldown, while simultaneously making enemies run away.

-Huras does a better job than Shade (credit where it's due); It cloaks a lot better with Stalk than Shade does with Ghost, while offering more damage than Shade's weapon does.

-Sentinel weapons are interchangeable (except Deconstructor) and mod-able (thus being able to deal different elemental procs and addapt to each situation), while Kubrows have to sacrifice their own mod slots to deal more damage and are stuck at melee range with a bad AI. Not only this, it takes a fully forma'd Kubrow to fit in all mods available, while Sentinels require less (around 2 or 3 Formas).

-Sunika is able to focus high value targets mid-fights... which unfortunately can be done by Sweeper/Sweeper Prime's spread with a status build, also equipable on any Sentinel. And now comes Helmith Charger to almost inutilize this breed.

-This isn't really a direct comparison about utillity, but.. resource costs and maintenence, while easy to maintain for Veterans, are a complete ''turnoff'' for players. If they're supposed to be high-level content, gated by time and resources, they don't really reflect that.

 

The only examples I can't give are related to Dethcube (damage), Helios (utillity) and Djinn (unknown to me).. even though, unfortunately, the Sentinels mentioned here already shame almost every Kubrow breed by some margin. I don't want to dramatize how Kubrows are at the moment, but let's be real: Sentinels will always be more used and there's a reason for that besides Vacuum (other type of Sentinels were already used before it was turned into an 'Universal' mod, although in a much less fashion). Now it just seems worse, especially with that A.I. bringing them down. A system to give our pets commands would be a really good step in the right direction, but once again, it's just forgotten content in DE's vast sea of powercreep'd material. I'm not asking for everything to be top tier, I just want Kubrows to get the recognition they deserved (as said by DE themselves) and make them more of a 'choice' and less of a sacrifice (mostly because 'dogs are cute'). Being able to revive our Kubrows and have them tank doesn't mean much to me if all they can do is be a meatshield and ocasionally deal damage (which they barely do thanks to that gruesome AI, even worse compared to the new Helminth Charger's stats and abillities).

Again, not to dramatize, they have a fair amount of use and aren't completely useless (that's not what I'm going for), but they do need serious work if our time and resources are supposed to be worth it.

 

 

Chesa also has disarm. That's a very good ability.

Raksa's AOE fear is not their main ability?Really? Reeeeally?

Sahasa produces loot... how can carrier do that better? It doesnt produce loot.

Wyrm does a knockdown which is good but it doent take out the enemy from a fight as long as Howl does.

You seem to focus on the side things simply to try to make the dogs weaker.

The only Sentinel that i saw is as good as kub in terms of abilities is Diriga.

[Rush95]

15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Chesa also has disarm. That's a very good ability.

Raksa's AOE fear is not their main ability?Really? Reeeeally?

Sahasa produces loot... how can carrier do that better? It doesnt produce loot.

Wyrm does a knockdown which is good but it doent take out the enemy from a fight as long as Howl does.

You seem to focus on the side things simply to try to make the dogs weaker.

The only Sentinel that i saw is as good as kub in terms of abilities is Diriga.

Chesa has Neutralize, a single target abillity that is dependable on their AI and has questionable usage. It feels more like a dumbed down Sunika Kubrow.

Raksa's description states it was made as an obedient and loyal bodyguard equipped with Shield regenerators, only then mentioning their paralyzing fear. Even then, I already stated that it firmly competes with Wyrm, depending on player preference. However, it does have the same old problem that Terrify (from Nekros) had: it makes enemies run away from you in a somewhat slow and random motion.

Carrier increases your ammunition capacity and coverts whatever ammo you pick up into the one you need the most. How is this not more useful than what Sahasa does? It's basically an Ammo Mutation to any weapon you have equipped, which is far more efficient.

I seem to only focus on the things that make the dogs weaker, because unfortunately all they do is bring damage and tankiness. And even their damage is of questionable usage.

If the only Sentinel you see as good is Diriga, you haven't seen how much usage Carrier has been having, or Helios and Wyrm.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Rush95

[Mak_Gohae]

2 hours ago, Rush95 said:

Chesa has Neutralize, a single target abillity that is dependable on their AI and has questionable usage. It feels more like a dumbed down Sunika Kubrow.

what's questionable about it? It disarms ppl just like Loki's disarm. If you have played with that dog you will constantly see units running around with sticks. And they do go after heavies.

Quote

Raksa's description states it was made as an obedient and loyal bodyguard equipped with Shield regenerators, only then mentioning their paralyzing fear. Even then, I already stated that it firmly competes with Wyrm, depending on player preference. However, it does have the same old problem that Terrify (from Nekros) had: it makes enemies run away from you in a somewhat slow and random motion.

So because of the description you will ignore the actual gameplay? Hey, did you know Volt is an alternative to gunplay? Sorry, but this is a weird reason to try to make Raksa into a bad pet.

And, yeah, player preference means that Raksa is not objectively worst, it just means what the person likes for their tactic. Some people do like having the enemies clear the field. You know, the enemies with auras? It's a good idea to keep auras as far from you as you can.

Quote

Carrier increases your ammunition capacity and coverts whatever ammo you pick up into the one you need the most. How is this not more useful than what Sahasa does? It's basically an Ammo Mutation to any weapon you have equipped, which is far more efficient.

Sahasa is not dependent on the loot on the ground. Sahasa produces what you need. Not only weapon ammo but orbs.

Quote

I seem to only focus on the things that make the dogs weaker, because unfortunately all they do is bring damage and tankiness. And even their damage is of questionable usage.

Sorry but when focusing on the shield recharge instead of the howl of a Raksa it's clear that you simply dont like the dogs.

Quote

If the only Sentinel you see as good is Diriga, you haven't seen how much usage Carrier has been having, or Helios and Wyrm.

i didnt say diriga is the only good sentinel. I said that D is the only one that is comparable to the combined abilities of the kubs.

 

[Rush95]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

what's questionable about it? It disarms ppl just like Loki's disarm. If you have played with that dog you will constantly see units running around with sticks. And they do go after heavies.

So because of the description you will ignore the actual gameplay? Hey, did you know Volt is an alternative to gunplay? Sorry, but this is a weird reason to try to make Raksa into a bad pet.

And, yeah, player preference means that Raksa is not objectively worst, it just means what the person likes for their tactic. Some people do like having the enemies clear the field. You know, the enemies with auras? It's a good idea to keep auras as far from you as you can.

Sahasa is not dependent on the loot on the ground. Sahasa produces what you need. Not only weapon ammo but orbs.

Sorry but when focusing on the shield recharge instead of the howl of a Raksa it's clear that you simply dont like the dogs.

i didnt say diriga is the only good sentinel. I said that D is the only one that is comparable to the combined abilities of the kubs.

 

Chesa: It disarms one at a time and has a cooldow, in a game where vast amounts of enemies appear at once, I can't see it having much use or utillity, especially when Sunika can already focus down high priority targets and ragdoll them away.

Raksa: Volt's description is a bad comparison imo, especially when DE themselves have stated that it's a bit outdated. And again, not reading what I actually wrote: what part of ''competes firmly with Wyrm'' wasn't understood? Had I wanted to portray it as a bad Pet I wouldn't mention this at all. Raksa is mildly used compared to other Kubrows, since Huras and Sunika are some of the more preferred ones. And again, it's not the worst, but Wyrm has a lot more tools than Raksa has, making it a better choice. About Howl, the problem is that it makes enemies run somewhat slow and irregularly, which was also a problem with Nekro's Terrify before his rework.

Sahasa: Efficiency isn't just cooldown/loot related. It's also related to how well it works in correlation to gameplay. Sahasa is Carrier counterpart, it creates loot but in a fixed position, in a game where you need to move. The amount of loot it creates will never be as sustainable as the amount that Carrier gives by transforming pickups or multiplying your Maximum Ammo count, especially when Carrier can pull pickups and convert them instantly.

Diriga: My apologies then, I've read wrong. Diriga isn't that much comparable however, both its utillity skills (which is a guaranteed single target stun and an AoE lockdown with a % chance of occuring) can only be compared to Wyrm or Raksa. Any other breed or Sentinel has different purposes.

It's exactly because I love dogs that I'm making this post, but that does not stop me from pointing out their flaws (one of the biggest being their AI). Huras has recognition where it is deserved, but Sunika just got completely flanked by the Helminth Charger. Raksa and Wyrm compete with each other and Chesa/Sahasa cannot compare to Carrier single handedly.