should loki be reworked?

[Helljack84]

11 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

On your max range, balanced strength/duration, max basestat/ possibly power management build as you need to approach enemys 100% of the time to even substain your invisibility.

 

BALANCING ACT. NO FRICKIN OVER THE TOP NOTHING CAN EVER HARM RESULTS WITH RANGE AND DURATION.

Nah, just max range and rage, super easy to sustain, invisibility is just icing on the cake while I instagib stuff. 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Helljack84

[Vermitore]

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

Actually because a generalize change to CC without observing how each skill works does not include how CC is factored into various frame skillset. Avalanche CC is far different than MPrime and Disarm, do you adjust it based on that? No, you look at it on a skill by skill basis and how the skill functions in the frame's kit.

Disarm isn't fine because Mprime exist, Mprime isn't fine because Vortex/Bastille exist. This is the same reasoning that happens with every press42winframe rework

Why nerf EB when Miasma is still a thing? Why nerf Miasma when Bladestorm still exist? Now it's current iteration is "Why nerf bladestorm when WOF is a thing".

You fail to understand that i say all of them are at fault however all of them should be looked at individually. This thread is for Loki, which should get a rework because his skillset is unbalanced. The OP outright asks for suggestion on how to balance loki while still keeping him in a good place for his fans and is met with complete disdain. 

With every rework thread there will always be someone who argues the frame being discussed is fine. No matter what. Also people will always complain about change, always forum outrage are a standard.

You don't honestly expect me to offer suggestions as to how to balance Loki when I am of the opinion that Loki is balanced at present, right? And no, in a way none of them are at fault. The enemy scaling system is simplistic, the endless mission implementation is simplistic. No matter how much you try, in the absence of any change to the game's most fundamental core, the only way to balance the difficulty curve is to concoct dubious tactics which will be deemed to be cheese. But that's alright. We're talking about a game with indefinite scaling. There will never be complete balance as long as that is the case, merely balance in relation to a specific point or an area along the difficulty curve. It's the nature of the beast.

[SeriousSkipper]

14 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Actually because a generalize change to CC without observing how each skill works does not include how CC is factored into various frame skillset. Avalanche CC is far different than MPrime and Disarm, do you adjust it based on that? No, you look at it on a skill by skill basis and how the skill functions in the frame's kit.

Disarm isn't fine because Mprime exist, Mprime isn't fine because Vortex/Bastille exist. This is the same reasoning that happens with every press42winframe rework

Why nerf EB when Miasma is still a thing? Why nerf Miasma when Bladestorm still exist? Now it's current iteration is "Why nerf bladestorm when WOF is a thing".

You fail to understand that i say all of them are at fault however all of them should be looked at individually. This thread is for Loki, which should get a rework because his skillset is unbalanced. The OP outright asks for suggestion on how to balance loki while still keeping him in a good place for his fans and is met with complete disdain. 

With every rework thread there will always be someone who argues the frame being discussed is fine. No matter what. Also people will always complain about change, always forum outrage are a standard.

Okay.
You are saying that Disarm shouldn't be permanent.
Why?

[Buzkyl]

10 hours ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Okay.
You are saying that Disarm shouldn't be permanent.
Why?

Why because disarm doesn't just force enemies into melee, it removes some enemies special abilities outright.

• Bombards, Gunners and Napalms aren't going to use their slam attack.
• Techs will not deploy their ospreys
• Arson and Frost Eximii won't use their special abilities
• Fusion Moas won't deploy their drones when low on HP.

And ingneral, melee enemies are much easier to deal with than ranged.

And as an ultimate, that's fine. However for it to be permanent is going way to far. Disarm also has no LoS checks.

For the power it has, Disarm should have a duration on enemies like all debuffs. 

[SeriousSkipper]

16 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Why because disarm doesn't just force enemies into melee, it removes some enemies special abilities outright.

• Bombards, Gunners and Napalms aren't going to use their slam attack.
• Techs will not deploy their ospreys
• Arson and Frost Eximii won't use their special abilities
• Fusion Moas won't deploy their drones when low on HP.

And ingneral, melee enemies are much easier to deal with than ranged.

And as an ultimate, that's fine. However for it to be permanent is going way to far. Disarm also has no LoS checks.

For the power it has, Disarm should have a duration on enemies like all debuffs. 

Okay.

Why everything you have cited above is a bad thing?

[KingNoobsta]

2 minutes ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Okay.

Why everything you have cited above is a bad thing?

^x2

[Buzkyl]

3 minutes ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Okay.

Why everything you have cited above is a bad thing?

I never cited it as a bad thing for the ability. It cited it because the abilities make these permanent which is a bad thing. Care to explain why permanently stripping enemies of abilities is ok?

Edited January 5, 2017 by Buzkyl

[KingNoobsta]

3 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

I never cited it as a bad thing for the ability. It cited it because the abilities make these permanent which is a bad thing. 

but why is that a bad thing ? 

 

 

[SeriousSkipper]

5 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

I never cited it as a bad thing for the ability. It cited it because the abilities make these permanent which is a bad thing. Care to explain why permanently stripping enemies of abilities is ok?

Don't get me wrong. I was asking why something being permanent as an ability was a bad thing.

I don't know, I see enemies getting permanently killed, their armor being permanently stripped.

Why is that a bad thing?

[Buzkyl]

1 minute ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Don't get me wrong. I was asking why something being permanent as an ability was a bad thing.

I don't know, I see enemies getting permanently killed, their armor being permanently stripped.

Why is that a bad thing?

 

[SeriousSkipper]

4 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

 

I think you forgot to type an answer.

Or something just didn't render on my end?

 

EDIT: Checked HTML elements in the console. Clearly No answer.

Edited January 5, 2017 by SeriousSkipper

[KingNoobsta]

Do u have a point about "why permanent stripping them off the abilities isnt good ?" 

don't get me wrong as well. I'm just asking why u feel it should be changed. 

[Buzkyl]

11 minutes ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Don't get me wrong. I was asking why something being permanent as an ability was a bad thing.

I don't know, I see enemies getting permanently killed, their armor being permanently stripped.

Why is that a bad thing?

 

Okay let me abit more carefully

Disarm permanently debuffing enemies isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, when you take into account that disarm doesn't just Force enemies into melee and it shuts down abilities permanently, that is when the skill begins to become unbalanced.

Take these 2 points.

• If Disarm forced enemies into melee combat while still having them retain special abilities. That would be more acceptable. Even if the effect is permanent, you can argue that enemies still have a way to fight back because they have their abilities.
• If disarm forced melee and shut off abilities for a set time, that too would be acceptable. Because while it is powerful it is temporary, so enemies still have a chance to fight back after the effect ends.

However disarm is both permanent and it shut's down enemy skills whiles also forcing them into melee. It does too many things at once to be considered balance.

 

Armor being stripped also isn't the same as being disarmed. Removing armour makes enemies  EHP much lower. It does not lower their offensive prowess or ability to kill you. Disarm does. Hopefully you see my point here.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Buzkyl

[KingNoobsta]

4 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

 

Okay let me abit more carefully

Disarm permanently debuffing enemies isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, when you take into account that disarm doesn't just Force enemies into melee and it shuts down abilities permanently, that is when the skill begins to become unbalanced.

Take these 2 points.

• If Disarm forced enemies into melee combat while still having them retain special abilities. That would be more acceptable. Even if the effect is permanent, you can argue that enemies still have a way to fight back because they have their abilities.
• If disarm forced melee and shut off abilities for a set time, that too would be acceptable. Because while it is powerful it is temporary, so enemies still have a chance to fight back after the effect ends.

However disarm is both permanent and it shut's down enemy skills whiles also forcing them into melee. It does too many things at once to be considered balance.

 

Armor being stripped also isn't the same as being disarmed. Removing armour makes enemies  EHP much lower. It does not lower their offensive prowess or ability to kill you. Disarm does. Hopefully you see my point here.

 

Why would it be more acceptable ? Wasnt each warframe supposed to have a special ability to ACE it against others ? Also don't the enemy respawn ? Is the Disarm without Range ? 

[SeriousSkipper]

Just now, Buzkyl said:

 

Okay let me abit more carefully

Disarm permanently debuffing enemies isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, when you take into account that disarm doesn't just Force enemies into melee and it shuts down abilities permanently, that is when the skill begins to become unbalanced.

Take these 2 points.

• If Disarm forced enemies into melee combat while still having them retain special abilities. That would be more acceptable. Even if the effect is permanent, you can argue that enemies still have a way to fight back because they have their abilities.
• If disarm forced melee and shut off abilities for a set time, that too would be acceptable. Because while it is powerful it is temporary, so enemies still have a chance to fight back after the effect ends.

However disarm is both permanent and it S#&$s down enemy skills whiles also forcing them into melee. It does too many things at once to be considered balance.

 

Armor being stripped also isn't the same as being disarmed. Removing armour makes enemies  EHP much lower. It does not lower their offensive prowess or ability to kill you. Disarm does. Hopefully you see my point here.

 

Okay.

Since the whole purpose of the game is limiting offensive/defensive abilities of the enemies (and It's a fact that literally every ability/weapon does has the the same purpose), what's wrong with that? 

 

Honestly, with 20% Loki usage I've never noticed that disarmed enemies don't use their abilities, since I was concentrated on disarming the next LVL100 Tech that was coming with bunch of new eximuses to back him up, and most of previously disarmed enemies were dead in 10 seconds. I'm not sure making them still available to enemies is even going to change anything. Wiki doesn't mention anything about enemy abilities either. I'm confused.

[KingNoobsta]

1 minute ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Okay.

Since the whole purpose of the game is limiting offensive/defensive abilities of the enemies (and It's a fact that literally every ability/weapon does has the the same purpose), what's wrong with that? 

 

Honestly, with 20% Loki usage I've never noticed that disarmed enemies don't use their abilities, since I was concentrated on disarming the next LVL100 Tech that was coming with bunch of new eximuses to back him up, and most of previously disarmed enemies were dead in 10 seconds. I'm not sure making them still available to enemies is even going to change anything. Wiki doesn't mention anything about enemy abilities either. I'm confused.

More : http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Loki/Abilities

In case someone else wants to read it too. 

 

 

[-_Highlander_-]

:( No Loki is at his best 

 

No need to adjust rework or nerf

 

Loki has already an nerf Duration on invisibility its now 31 sec max instead of the 45 sec early days

 

its time community is stopping with this nerf this nerf that 

 

Create new mechanics, new idea's that we all happy with :) 

 

Spoiler

You know asking for Nerfs is asking for backfire ,, breaking down everyones gameplay only for you're own good

 

[DatDarkOne]

Wow. I'm a little bit confused on the reasons listed for wanting Disarm to be temp. Mainly because the enemies can still kill you while disarmed. That and there are some enemies where disarm isn't even effective on them. Melee enemies come to mind. Then there is the thing where most enemies don't live long anyway around Tenno. It kinda becomes a moot issue. Heck it's one of the main reasons half of my frames aren't duration builds.

Again, I'm not a Loki player but dang if I'm not seeing something that looks like nitpicking. I just can't see any situations where disarm being permanent is a bad thing or gamebreaking issue. This is just my opinion.

Edited January 5, 2017 by DatDarkOne
spelling

[Serafim_94]

15 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Wow. I'm a little bit confused on the reasons listed for wanting Disarm to be temp. Mainly because the enemies can still kill you while disarmed. That and there are some enemies where disarm isn't even effective on them. Melee enemies come to mind. Then there is the thing where most enemies don't live long anyway around Tenno. It kinda becomes a moot issue. Heck it's one of the main reasons half of my frames aren't duration builds.

Again, I'm not a Loki player but dang if I'm not seeing something that looks like nitpicking. I just can't see any situations where disarm being permanent is a bad thing or gamebreaking issue. This is just my opinion.

What's really funny is that duration addition won't change a single thing. RD is already spammed like no tomorrow - because new enemies keep coming into the fold. Or to refresh radiation proc.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Serafim_94

[Sasquatchias]

Personally I think Loki should get a Duration tied to his Disarm ultimate so that he can't make units entirely useless for the rest of their lifespan, but rather he and his teammates instead have a window of opportunity to lower the threat and take them out before they get their ranged weaponry back.

 

Other than that I don't think anything else should really be touched, though I wouldn't mind seeing his stealth get some sort of limitation like Ash and Ivara have (Ash being the low duration, Ivara being unable to run without canceling it), though not exactly like what they have (something different that allows Loki to keep his playstyle but prevents him from being an invisible murder chopter.)

[Vermitore]

7 hours ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Personally I think Loki should get a Duration tied to his Disarm ultimate so that he can't make units entirely useless for the rest of their lifespan, but rather he and his teammates instead have a window of opportunity to lower the threat and take them out before they get their ranged weaponry back.

 

Other than that I don't think anything else should really be touched, though I wouldn't mind seeing his stealth get some sort of limitation like Ash and Ivara have (Ash being the low duration, Ivara being unable to run without canceling it), though not exactly like what they have (something different that allows Loki to keep his playstyle but prevents him from being an invisible murder chopter.)

See Serafim_94's remark below.

8 hours ago, Serafim_94 said:

What's really funny is that duration addition won't change a single thing. RD is already spammed like no tomorrow - because new enemies keep coming into the fold. Or to refresh radiation proc.

Completely agree there. Loki's astonishingly poor scaling with Strength naturally means that he can completely ignore that stat, as the entirety of his kit was built around range, duration or a combination of the two (and obviously efficiency, depending on whether range or duration is dominant). He is not a primary damage dealer, he has not the capacity by himself to deal staggering amounts of damage. Loki in organised play is merely a facilitator. In solo? In solo you can take Zephyr shrugging off all projectile damage forever or Inaros or something and literally walk past enemies emptying entire magazines at you to little effect. The only advantage that Loki has over everyone, literally everyone else is when it comes to clearing Spy missions quickly. Ivara can actually do it better with Infiltration, but she's also slower, so there you have it.

I also don't understand why frames cannot excel at specific things more so than other frames.

[SeriousSkipper]

8 hours ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Personally I think Loki should get a Duration tied to his Disarm ultimate so that he can't make units entirely useless for the rest of their lifespan, but rather he and his teammates instead have a window of opportunity to lower the threat and take them out before they get their ranged weaponry back.

As Serafim_94 noted, disarm being spammed more then Invisibility is already a problem.

8 hours ago, Sasquatch180 said:

though I wouldn't mind seeing his stealth get some sort of limitation like Ash and Ivara have (Ash being the low duration, Ivara being unable to run without canceling it)

Except Ash has a stun on cast of Smoke Screen, which saves him in a lot of situations and Ivara has infinite  invisibility.

 

I'd rather see changes how enemies react to invisible enemies.

Edited January 6, 2017 by SeriousSkipper

[KingNoobsta]

16 hours ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Personally I think Loki should get a Duration tied to his Disarm ultimate so that he can't make units entirely useless for the rest of their lifespan, but rather he and his teammates instead have a window of opportunity to lower the threat and take them out before they get their ranged weaponry back.

 

Other than that I don't think anything else should really be touched, though I wouldn't mind seeing his stealth get some sort of limitation like Ash and Ivara have (Ash being the low duration, Ivara being unable to run without canceling it), though not exactly like what they have (something different that allows Loki to keep his playstyle but prevents him from being an invisible murder chopter.)

well why is one warframe being compared to others. And talking about Loki Invisibility- Its has been nerfed already to 30 sec. And now a few want disarm nerfed with reasons like "making it acceptable" or  "he can't make units entirely useless for the rest of their lifespan". Loki is useful on High level Sortie Kuva/Lua Spy or rescue mission. The enemy respawns and has unlimited number as compared to 4 revives a Tenno has. 

[EpicBred]

Loki is too powerful, along with nyx. Radial disarm with its augment is the strongest ability in the game: complete crowd control, infinitely scaling damage, because the enemies fight each other, and kind of defensiv, because you have to be stupid to get hit by disarmed enemies. And if you combine this with invisibility or decoy, enemies wont even try to hit you. (Same with nyx's 3 + 4.) People call it powercreep if you want to buff anyone else like chroma, who cant do anything in late endgame (if youre oneshot you cant build up armor, also this buildup has a cap). The community says loki and nyx are fine. They are broken and seriously need to get nerfed.

I already talked about that in this topic:

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by EpicBred

[Serafim_94]

5 minutes ago, EpicBred said:

Loki is too powerful, along with nyx. Radial disarm with its augment is the strongest ability in the game: complete crowd control, infinitely scaling damage, because the enemies fight each other, and kind of defensiv, because you have to be stupid to get hit by disarmed enemies. And if you combine this with invisibility or decoy, enemies wont even try to hit you. (Same with nyx's 3 + 4.) People call it powercreep if you want to buff anyone else like chroma, who cant do anything in late endgame (if youre oneshot you cant build up armor, also this buildup has a cap). The community says loki and nyx are fine. They are broken and seriously need to get nerfed.

I already talked about that in this topic:

 

Please tell us all about amazing overpowered infinitely scaling damage Loki possess. Please, tell us more.

 

He is perfectly in line with most other premier CC frames, like Nyx, Nova, Vauban, Frost. Even less popular frames, like Hydroid or Zephir, can lock maps down just as good as he can (though they make headshots impossible). The only issue with him is augment, that, IMO, takes too much of a spotlight away from Nyx. That augment may, just MAY deserve rework based on that fact. That's about it.