should loki be reworked?

[Arniox]

9 hours ago, Mergo537 said:

Because as stated above Loki trivializes most everything in the the game by himself and DE has reworked other frames for their "press 4 to win" kits.

Which Loki compares to with his disarm.

 

he doesn't press 4 to win though. He presses 4 to CC. Just like so many other frames. You could argue that Nyx is the female Loki. Her 4 is extremely similar to Loki. Loki doesn't trivialize anything. He just does a bit of CC and can go invis.

[Arniox]

9 hours ago, Naftal said:

I think Loki needs a nerf in the regard that he can forget about str and use overextended without any downside.

Or alternatively give every frame one power stat they can minimize without any downsides.

 

 

 

lol. Who cares. NYX for god's sake can use overextended and not care about the str downside. There are a couple of other frames who can also do the same thing. Every frame does not need perfect balancing so that every single mod in the game has to both hurt and upgrade. Loki is perfect where he is. Besides, maybe his switch teleport augment, he doesn't need changing. If you argue that Loki is OP. Take a look at Nyx. Nyx can constantly use CC, never get hit, Absorb all damage and scale in 10's of hours in survival if she wanted, she can control the strongest targets and now, she has a passive that makes her even more similar to Loki. And you build them in almost the same way. I use Nyx nowadays for spy missions because she can just CC everyone and you don't have to worry.

 

Oh and one more thing. You talk of overextended like that's the bad mod. What about blind rage on Nidus? Doesn't have any downsides. He get's so much energy back with zen and his 1st. What about Narrow-minded on Trinity? No downsides. In fact, that makes her 2 even more powerful. What about Narrow-minded on Excalibur or Nezha? You can spam their 4th and kill everything like it's no one's business. There are so many frames with such OP powers that become even stronger with mods that put negative stats on. Loki is no different and his powers are not that powerful. And beside's: NON OF LOKI'S POWERS EVEN NEED STRENGTH!

Edited January 2, 2017 by Arniox

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

While those frames do have stats that are negligible, none of them are outright omitted. Strength has zero effect on every ability on Loki. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Tyrian3k]

How about we focus on frames that underperform before we address frames that allegedly overperform?

I don't really see how Loki is overpowered, though. His disarm is powerful, sure, but if they are high level and irradiated, they may kill you with a single stray hit. Without a slow nova on top, these enemies are still very much a threat.

In the end, you will always have combinations of warframes that will be able to handle just about anything in the game, though.

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

3 hours ago, Arniox said:

What about Narrow-minded on Trinity? No downsides.

[ZombieLorde91]

4 hours ago, Arniox said:

What about Narrow-minded on Trinity? No downsides. In fact, that makes her 2 even more powerful.

I'm gonna be the guy to ask but you do know Narrow Minded is the +Duration -Range right? Most Trinity players go for the EV Builds nowadays which has Transient Fortitude (-Duration +Power Strength) and Fleeting Expertise (-Duration +Efficiency) to get ALOT of energy quickly.

[Trichouette]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

They need to make "detected = auto fail" missions.

Yeah great so people would play only ivara and loki for these missions, what's the point ?

Unless raising how used loki & ivara are there is none.

 

[SeriousSkipper]

7 hours ago, Mergo537 said:

But Loki can be invisible forever, with energy siphon you generate the power cost for invisibility faster than you can spend it. And Loki's 4 doesn't need to kill when it pretty much cripples any none boss enemy into basically being a infested charger but with more armor/health which Loki can out run without sprinting. They can't touch him and 99% of the time they can not even see him.

True invisibility doesn't prevent damage but that is where you have to be smart about how you play. Aoe is avoidable if you know what you are doing so it is an none issue, just don't stand there while it is going on and you will be fine. It's really not hard.

Same argument. It seems like I will have to quote myself once again.

Quote

Chroma/Inaros/Wukong/Nidus are immortal, open enemies for finishers, CC them, and don't even need invisibility to survive.

Vauban/Banshee/Frost/Rhino can stunlock rooms of enemies.

Mesa/Mirage/Excal/Saryn can murder everything even before enemies reach your team.

Is a frame that has decent amount of survivability and utility that problematic, that it needs a nerf?

You still die because of eximus attacks that go threw walls, and bombard rockets/normal bullets that were meant for your teammates/rad proced enemies. And no, disarm is not a solution, since every single team kills enemies faster then Loki can disarm, and then you are swarmed with new armed spawns pretty much instantly.

 

7 hours ago, Mergo537 said:

True invisibility doesn't prevent damage but that is where you have to be smart about how you play. Aoe is avoidable if you know what you are doing so it is an none issue, just don't stand there while it is going on and you will be fine. It's really not hard.

Which means that a good Loki player is being rewarded for being good.

If Loki needs a nerf for having survivability+utility, then an augmented Ivara needs to be removed  from the game for having god mode survivability, CC, instakill, huge DPS and utility...

[Nazrethim]

16 hours ago, NobleParadox96 said:

loki scales well into endgame content... don't see the point why he should be reworked since people use him like how he's supposed to work

Decoy: Only shoots&alerts enemies within it's LoS, remainig silent when hidden. Using the ability while aiming to the decoy would cancel it instead of creating another at no energy cost.

Invisibility: Toggle-drain ability.

Radial Dissarm: Now requires clear LoS to work on an enemy.

[(PSN)Akabane85]

There should be no changes on invisibility and radial disarm.

Invisibility will only gives advantages for loki itself, not the mission progressive, a part from spy. Missions that need to defense, invisible is more useless compare to CC. In survival, invisible and melee definitely a great combo, but not enemy scaling, where in end game, able to use covert lethality is much better where enemy has incredible armor. Making it a toggle and energy drain type will kill loki, since after run out of energy, it requires a lot of time to replenish where loki has zero survivability, unlike Ivara, she has invisible bubble, sleep arrow, additional loot and much more bonus than loki when invisibility.

Radial Disarm also perfectly fine. Unlike previous nerfed one button clear 4th, like Ash or Saryn, loki's 4th still need to survive and kills. On medium level, Nova can do better than only disarming. On high end level where enemy has ridiculous long range instant damage, remove range attack from enemies is a huge bonus. Limit enemies affected would kill loki since one enemy with gun is enough to kills entire team instantly. Limit with LoS would also kill loki from behind or a sneaky place.

 

[Mergo537]

16 hours ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Nerf him and make his fans happy. Did even read your post?

Chroma/Inaros/Wukong/Nidus are immortal, open enemies for finishers, CC them, and don't even need invisibility to survive.

Vauban/Banshee/Frost/Rhino can stunlock rooms of enemies.

Mesa/Mirage/Excal/Saryn can murder everything even before enemies reach your team.

Is a frame that has decent amount of survivability and utility that problematic, that it needs a nerf?

You still die because of eximus attacks that go threw walls, and bombard rockets/normal bullets that were meant for your teammates/rad proced enemies. And no, disarm is not a solution, since every single team kills enemies faster then Loki can disarm, and then you are swarmed with new armed spawns pretty much instantly.

 

I have a better solution. Let's nerf Mag. apparently she can kill enemies. That's disgusting and needs to be nerfed. No one has a right to have that much power. /s

 

1 hour ago, SeriousSkipper said:

Same argument. It seems like I will have to quote myself once again.

 

Which means that a good Loki player is being rewarded for being good.

If Loki needs a nerf for having survivability+utility, then an augmented Ivara needs to be removed  from the game for having god mode survivability, CC, instakill, huge DPS and utility...

When have I ever said in any of my posts Loki should be nerfed? All I have said is I would not be surprised if he is reworked at some point.

Since when does rework equal nerf?

Volt was reworked so does that mean he was nerfed into the ground like you are suggesting I want Loki to be?

[SeriousSkipper]

57 minutes ago, Mergo537 said:

 

When have I ever said in any of my posts Loki should be nerfed? All I have said is I would not be surprised if he is reworked at some point.

Since when does rework equal nerf?

Volt was reworked so does that mean he was nerfed into the ground like you are suggesting I want Loki to be?

And did I say that I was arguing against "nerf chances"?

I wasn't even suggesting that you want him to be nerfed, I was referring to OP.
I was arguing against your arguments of Loki being OP.
And speaking of reworks.

Pre-rework Volt's 4 was clearing Draco/LVL40 enemies without any problems, now it's a pretty bad and inconsistent CC ability.

Pre-rework Ash had a 4th ability that was worth using, and now it's a clunkier 3rd ability with higher energy cost.

Pre-rework Nekros had 100% loot drop chance.

Pre-rework Saryn had higher DPS/room clearing ability.

Pre-rework Mag had a place in a team.

I'm not saying that reworks were bad, except for Ash and Mag (I genuinely can't imagine a single situation where she isn't outclassed by everything else), but let's not say that they were perfect and left everyone happy.

Right now there are frames that are crying for a rework, like Hydroid/Oberon. Loki has a place in the grand scheme of things, in contrary to them.

[Mergo537]

9 minutes ago, SeriousSkipper said:

And did I say that I was arguing against "nerf chances"?

I wasn't even suggesting that you want him to be nerfed, I was referring to OP.
I was arguing against your arguments of Loki being OP.
And speaking of reworks.

Pre-rework Volt's 4 was clearing Draco/LVL40 enemies without any problems, now it's a pretty bad and inconsistent CC ability.

Pre-rework Ash had a 4th ability that was worth using, and now it's a clunkier 3rd ability with higher energy cost.

Pre-rework Nekros had 100% loot drop chance.

Pre-rework Saryn had higher DPS/room clearing ability.

Pre-rework Mag had a place in a team.

I'm not saying that reworks were bad, except for Ash and Mag (I genuinely can't imagine a single situation where she isn't outclassed by everything else), but let's not say that they were perfect and left everyone happy.

Right now there are frames that are crying for a rework, like Hydroid/Oberon. Loki has a place in the grand scheme of things, in contrary to them.

You might want to do better at clarifying that then.

Quoting two of your posts that go on to say nerfs are not needed leads someone to believe that is what you are speaking of.

I am not arguing Loki is OP, what I am saying that invisibility in Warframe isn't balanced and needs a rework which in turn means changes to frames that have it as an ability.

When you can stay invisible throughout a mission killing enemies in front of their comrades and all they can do is think "hey what was that?" while standing on top of  a pile of corpses it it needs a looking at.

[SnuggleBuckets]

58 minutes ago, Mergo537 said:

When you can stay invisible throughout a mission killing enemies in front of their comrades and all they can do is think "hey what was that?" while standing on top of  a pile of corpses it it needs a looking at.

I think the issue is AI, the enemies in that case, that the Invisibility mechanics in general need tweaking, not the fact that Loki can stay invisible for long stretches of time.

[SeriousSkipper]

1 hour ago, Mergo537 said:

You might want to do better at clarifying that then.

Quoting two of your posts that go on to say nerfs are not needed leads someone to believe that is what you are speaking of.

I am not arguing Loki is OP, what I am saying that invisibility in Warframe isn't balanced and needs a rework which in turn means changes to frames that have it as an ability.

When you can stay invisible throughout a mission killing enemies in front of their comrades and all they can do is think "hey what was that?" while standing on top of  a pile of corpses it it needs a looking at.

So, facetanking, stunlocking enemies while not being invisible is okay and doesn't need a nerf, but if you shoot them while invisible that's OP? Or just oneshoting them with Mesa while having 90% DR?
BTW, if in case of CC/tanking powers missing a shot is not a problem, hitting a bombard as a Loki and not oneshotting him will actually result in your death, since enemies are aware of you location if any kind of a status procs (bleed/gas procs give them 8 sec visibility of you, and it doesn't matter if you are cloaked), or you use a non-silent weapon. 

 

1 hour ago, Mergo537 said:

You might want to do better at clarifying that then.

You need to clarify better too. First you support someone who wants to nerf Loki, then you say that Loki is probably going to be reworked, and now you are arguing that stealth needs a nerf. What are you even standing for?

[LuckySh0t501]

No.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

Why would we rework him?

you actually need to be good to use loki.

intuition.

battle field awareness.

and quick reflexes.

 

those 3 things are absolutely necessary for loki to remain relevant in end game 

[(XBOX)HenCeption]

 

I've already agreed that Loki just highlights bad things in the game and shouldn't be nerfed but the insinuation that he is hard to play is ridiculous. 

 

[DinendalMinyatur]

Loki is good, leave the poor frame be

 

Also a little bit off topic but another nerf tread?

What is going on with this "nerf this nerf that" trend?

Are we secretly transitioning into Warframe:Prepare to Die Edition^TM?

[NeonNemesis]

Loki isn't that hard to play, most of the Loki players I see only know how to play him by using his 2 untill it's over and then recast it. Occasionally they'll use 4 on longer missions.

However he's way to squishy to survive without invisibility, his kit is made to work with the basis that the enemy doesn't know he's there because if he does, 1 stray shot or 1 AoE at higher levels will bring Loki down.

Try to do 1 of those survival sorties filled with Nullies and Sappings and try to use your invisibility to rescue teammates who are downed nest to 4 nullies accompanied by 5 sappings and 3 techs. Or those infested where the Ospreys are always droping clouds followed by Moas and Toxic ancients.

 

[SnuggleBuckets]

59 minutes ago, DinendalMinyatur said:

What is going on with this "nerf this nerf that" trend?

Are we secretly transitioning into Warframe:Prepare to Die Edition^TM?

I suspect that people are locked in a "multiplayer" mindset when approaching this game, the fact that it is a free to play game as well helps to confuse people and compare it more with other f2p games that are usually competitive multiplayer PvP games. And when they see an imbalance of some kind, it is interpreted as being bad, whereas in normal singleplayer or coop games, balance is treated in a very different manner, and there is a place for imbalanced stuff, usually in favour of players (and progression), tough in some cases in favour of AI (selecting different difficulty settings).

Also because this is a surprisingly huge and multidimensional game, people can get caught on some single aspect and identify that as the defining feature of it, and when the rest of the game doesn't comply with that feature, they see it as being against what the game stands for in their mind. So when you have those sudden jumps in difficulty due to whatever reason, some interpret the difficulty to be part of the games design.
Personally, from the moment I jumped into the game as a newbie and have played it for 1k hours, difficulty was always a secondary thing, the cool stuff, cool warframes and weapons and a variety of tools, being an awesome ninja, fighting huge fights, exploring the weird scifi universe, the different gathering, crafting, spending time on your ship, visiting around hostile and safe havens, playing with my friend, all sorts of different aspects of this game I find to build the whole, the difficulty sometimes serves that, at other times it rubs against most other enjoyment.

[DinendalMinyatur]

2 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

I suspect that people are locked in a "multiplayer" mindset when approaching this game, the fact that it is a free to play game as well helps to confuse people and compare it more with other f2p games that are usually competitive multiplayer PvP games. And when they see an imbalance of some kind, it is interpreted as being bad, whereas in normal singleplayer or coop games, balance is treated in a very different manner, and there is a place for imbalanced stuff, usually in favour of players (and progression), tough in some cases in favour of AI (selecting different difficulty settings).

Also because this is a surprisingly huge and multidimensional game, people can get caught on some single aspect and identify that as the defining feature of it, and when the rest of the game doesn't comply with that feature, they see it as being against what the game stands for in their mind. So when you have those sudden jumps in difficulty due to whatever reason, some interpret the difficulty to be part of the games design.
Personally, from the moment I jumped into the game as a newbie and have played it for 1k hours, difficulty was always a secondary thing, the cool stuff, cool warframes and weapons and a variety of tools, being an awesome ninja, fighting huge fights, exploring the weird scifi universe, the different gathering, crafting, spending time on your ship, visiting around hostile and safe havens, playing with my friend, all sorts of different aspects of this game I find to build the whole, the difficulty sometimes serves that, at other times it rubs against most other enjoyment.

Pretty much this. It's a massive shooter PvE game where you become a ninja to shred your enemies to pieces. But some people with masochistic tendencies tries to force this game into some hardcore strategic/ tactical game hence the reference of Dark Souls in my post. Unless something is game-breaking (As in, one button nuke, a cc that locks down the whole map) there should be no nerfs.

Lets see who got nerfed like that

Saryn:was 4 to win now its pretty interactive

Mag: similiar as above, though still suffering from low levels of energy for a caster.

Ash:Press 4 to watch cutscenes, though i wish his rework could be done better.

Excalibur: One wave of EB was enough to decimate everything stands in its way on whole map. Still EB needs more tweaks

 

Now back to topic. Loki is pretty decent as it is. He's pretty squishy which counters his weakness with stealth. He got a teleport to get out of harms way which works great when you combine it with his 1. 4 is kinda bad due to modding. If you want more duration you gotta sacrifice his range.

Overall he's fine as it is.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

18 hours ago, Mergo537 said:

But Loki can be invisible forever, with energy siphon you generate the power cost for invisibility faster than you can spend it. And Loki's 4 doesn't need to kill when it pretty much cripples any none boss enemy into basically being a infested charger but with more armor/health which Loki can out run without sprinting. They can't touch him and 99% of the time they can not even see him.

True invisibility doesn't prevent damage but that is where you have to be smart about how you play. Aoe is avoidable if you know what you are doing so it is an none issue, just don't stand there while it is going on and you will be fine. It's really not hard.

yes. loki can be invisible in your made up example forever. In the actual game in higher tier content there are enemis that will sap your energy/remove you from it. these enemies get spammed the longer you go in endless. wether or not his 4 "needs" to kill isn't my point. DE nerfed miasma because it killed entire floors without LoS up to high levels without much interaction. DE nerfed peace maker because of the same reason. ashes blade storm was nerfed for similar reasons plus how it behaved with allies. point was his 4 doesn't fall under DE's current nerfing peremiters. I refer you to my last sentence. just because i have the ability to lessen my risk doesn't mean the risk is gone nor does it make it any less of a risk.

Also until you can reply with an argument instead of writing scenarios that really never happen in relevant content I won't be replying further.

[Helljack84]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)HenCeption said:

I've already agreed that Loki just highlights bad things in the game and shouldn't be nerfed but the insinuation that he is hard to play is ridiculous. 

What kind of bad things does it highlight? Cheese? Bad AI*?

True, it's not rocket science, no warframe is.

But please take him to sortie 1 level ranges, you'll be surprised by the amount of things that can end you by accident. Stray bullets, fireballs, AoE spam (eximus sortie any1?), ospreys, fartclouds...the list goes on and it's basically touch it and you're dead.

 

* Can't come up with good strats vs tenno. He enters the room and...oh, you've already died 12 seconds ago. If enemies were smarter the alarms would trigger self destruction.

[(XBOX)HenCeption]

2 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

What kind of bad things does it highlight? Cheese? Bad AI*?

True, it's not rocket science, no warframe is.

But please take him to sortie 1 level ranges, you'll be surprised by the amount of things that can end you by accident. Stray bullets, fireballs, AoE spam (eximus sortie any1?), ospreys, fartclouds...the list goes on and it's basically touch it and you're dead.

 

* Can't come up with good strats vs tenno. He enters the room and...oh, you've already died 12 seconds ago. If enemies were smarter the alarms would trigger self destruction.

 

he highlights the awful AI of melee only units and the stealth mechanics and I have with even an Ok build you can solo all sorties except stuff like interception, defense, and hijack