HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Naskoni]

6 hours ago, iDEBz said:

20 Waves solo with a double resource booster with a non looter frame. 7 drops.

http://imgur.com/zpRmaMy

I rest my case.

Such rain! Much wow!

[Naskoni]

6 hours ago, MobyTheDuck said:

I like how Steve said he wanted to change something but the other devs dug their heels about it.

You know, the problem with using other people as meatshields, is that it doesnt works against nukes.

Well, Steve said they will look into it, then they did look into it, saw how many Hemas and Niduses sold for plat, decided they wanted to repeat this success on consoles as well and instead of doing something about it left everything as it was as it was working precisely as they were hoping it would. And it certainly wouldn't have worked if the console players saw that either the mutagen samples research price was reduced or the samples dropchance was increased on the PC around the Glast Gambit release on consoles.

[TheZathel]

I just wanted to chime in on something I never quite understood - where the hell does damage to social clans come in here? If you're a social clan you should not go on purging spree because you can't research a single weapon without putting any effort at all. If you do, you're not a social clan, you're starting to get hardcore. That kinda means you lied to people who joined it and you're kicking casual players to satisfy your cravings. Basically, you want the cake and eat it too.

Not to mention that if you can't motivate other clan members to put in bare minimum of effort (I have about 70 days played total - I have 500 samples, never did many Derelict runs and I crafted most of my mutagen masses) to get the research done in a reasonable timeframe, it's either a sorry excuse for a community or just a wrong community for you - go find a collective of people who treat the game as seriously as you do.

You would think, from all this incessant month-long screeching and whining fiesta that they locked up temporary access to significant content update like a new gamemode or cinematic quest behind a sacrifice of 10 vaulted prime sets per player that has to be refreshed weekly.

[Marasago]

The more time passes the less sure I am even an eventual reversal of the costs would make me trust DE again. The scandal IMHO is not that there's an item with higher requirements than others. Of course the raw costs are outrageous, as has been proven numerous times - but the true scandal is that DE thinks it okay to introduce arbitrary high costs and resorts to outright lying to justify those.
Previously, as was my impression, there was some sort of community between devs and players, even though DE always did test the waters and did add ever grindier stuff step by step, but in the end everything (hm, let's say almost) more or less balanced out.
But now they've begun to develop against the players in order to maximise income and the way they keep reacting towards feedback betrays that this is their new developmental philosophy. They put their foot down and tell us to suck it up. Well. The way I see it that's not the right basis for a continued customer-developer relation.

[ChuckMaverick]

6 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

You would think, from all this incessant month-long screeching and whining fiesta

Really? Nice to see you're keeping the discussion civil and constructive. /s

If you'd actually read the thread then you'd see that several of the people arguing that the costs are too high have already completed the Hema research, and that number will only increase over time, but it doesn't make the costs any more reasonable.

[TheZathel]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Really? Nice to see you're keeping the discussion civil and constructive. /s

If you'd actually read the thread then you'd see that several of the people arguing that the costs are too high have already completed the Hema research, and that number will only increase over time, but it doesn't make the costs any more reasonable.

I was referring to dozens of threads about this created daily here and on Reddit, often wildly exaggerated and over-dramatic in tone and content. I'm just calling the things as I see them.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, TheZathel said:

I was referring to dozens of threads about this created daily here and on Reddit, often wildly exaggerated and over-dramatic in tone and content. I'm just calling the things as I see them.

No, you're characterising whole argument against the Hema costs as an "incessant month-long screeching and whining fiesta" and ignoring the many thoughtful posts and valid arguments being put forward.

Sure, there are exaggerated and over-dramatic posts (on both sides of the argument), but that's generally the case with any forum debate and shouldn't distract from the core issues being discussed.

[DoomFruit]

3 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The idea is for a collective team to research, but you either accept the consequences of being alone or you start questioning the clanmates you have, go directly to them and ask, "in the folowing month (30 days), how many mutagens you farmed and placed on the research?" if they say none then just kick them out, not even having the patience or the effort to play 10 minutes, jesus christ, that's not playing the game, that's laziness.

Each passing day reduces the grind for hema (daily) or extends the ammount of time you have to gather the resources, we are aproaching the numbers where if someone doesn't have hema researched then there is a serious activity or management problem in the clan.

Pretty much everybody in my clan is outright refusing to fund the hema. We don't have it, we likely never will have it. Not when the costs are so ridiculously high.

"Activity or management problem" implies that me and my clanmates exist solely to farm extremely large quantities of resources. No. We're in this clan together because we're friends. If we play the game, it's because we find it fun.

We do not find sitting next to a defence pod in the exact same tile with the exact same squad loadout clicking the exact same buttons in the exact same place for upwards of 20 hours to be fun. The clan leader's not going to start kicking less active members out, because friends don't do that to friends. No, when this stops becoming fun, we don't start kicking our friends out, we all go find something else to do. And then we tell everyone who asks that this game has stopped becoming fun and has turned into an enormous grindfest, and that they should stay well away from it.

[TheZathel]

Just now, ChuckMaverick said:

No, you're characterising whole argument against the Hema costs as an "incessant month-long screeching and whining fiesta" and ignoring the many thoughtful posts and valid arguments being put forward.

Sure, there are exaggerated and over-dramatic posts (on both sides of the argument), but that's generally the case with any forum debate and shouldn't distract from the core issues being discussed.

And you're putting words in my mouth since maybe, deep down, you know that those arguments are none of the things you claim them to be. Truth stings, you know?

[Naskoni]

4 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

I was referring to dozens of threads about this created daily here and on Reddit, often wildly exaggerated and over-dramatic in tone and content. I'm just calling the things as I see them.

And what do we call people that don't read any of those threads, never understand what their actual purpose is and simply drop some random crap 50 pages later stating obvious things addressed 20+ times in said threads as if they discovered the wheel and thus enlightened the filthy, ignorant masses with their Augustine presence?

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, TheZathel said:

And you're putting words in my mouth

I'm quoting your own words, so please explain how I'm doing this.

[TheZathel]

1 minute ago, Naskoni said:

And what do we call people that don't read any of those threads, never understand what their actual purpose is and simply drop some random crap 50 pages later stating obvious things addressed 20+ times in said threads as if they discovered the wheel and thus enlightened the filthy, ignorant masses with their Augustine presence?

Wow, you took it up a notch - not only putting words in my mouth, you're adding declaring what I did and didn't do! Discussion such civil, much enlightened, wow.

[TheZathel]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'm quoting your own words, so please explain how I'm doing this.

I said I was referring to multiple exaggerated and panicky threads, specifically and you're still claiming I made this as a general blanked statement for every thread about the issue and I'm dismissing the argument wholesale. Especially since in my initial post I addressed ONE of the issues without ever referrign to my opinion on viability of other aspects of this problem.

You either have problems with reading comprehension or you're so incensed and dug into your stance on this that you attack any dissenting point of view regardless of anything, in any way you can.

[Naskoni]

Just now, TheZathel said:

I said I was referring to multiple exaggerated and panicky threads, specifically and you're still claiming I made this as a general blanked statement for every thread about the issue and I'm dismissing the argument wholesale. Especially since in my initial post I addressed ONE of the issues without ever referrign to my opinion on viability of other aspects of this problem.

You either have problems with reading comprehension or you're so incensed and dug into your stance on this that you attack any dissenting point of view regardless of anything, in any way you can.

 

28 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

incessant month-long screeching and whining fiesta

I think our reading comprehension is fully functioning. Your sorry excuses about blanket insulting everyone that think the Hema research costs are BS, on the other hand, are not.

 

[AnarchyChan]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)DancesInShadow said:

Oh come on... Ghost requirements is 5k Mutagen mass.

shhh, what are you doing? Knowing DE it can be true

[TheZathel]

3 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

 

I think our reading comprehension is fully functioning. Your sorry excuses about blanket insulting everyone that think the Hema research costs are BS, on the other hand, are not.

 

Aaaand you're back where you started - with putting words in my mouth, this time also claiming they are excuses. I'm not responsible for your inability to correctly comprehend and contextualize written English.

[ChuckMaverick]

6 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

I said I was referring to multiple exaggerated and panicky threads, specifically and you're still claiming I made this as a general blanked statement for every thread about the issue and I'm dismissing the argument wholesale. Especially since in my initial post I addressed ONE of the issues without ever referrign to my opinion on viability of other aspects of this problem.

Then you picked an odd place to post your comment, as I went back through a couple of pages of this thread and couldn't find anything that I would consider "screeching and whining". Why not make your post somewhere it actually applied?

6 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

You either have problems with reading comprehension or you're so incensed and dug into your stance on this that you attack any dissenting point of view regardless of anything, in any way you can.

You've clearly not been following this thread or you'd have seen that I call out BS arguments on both sides of the debate, I've even been accused of white-knighting for DE on a couple of occasions.

[TheZathel]

Just now, ChuckMaverick said:

Then you picked an odd place to post your comment, as I went back through a couple of pages of this thread and couldn't find anything that I would consider "screeching and whining". Why not make your post somewhere it actually applied?

You've clearly not been following this thread or you'd have seen that I call out BS arguments on both sides of the debate, I've even been accused of white-knighting for DE on a couple of occasions.

Well it was you that instead of addressing my argument, focused on getting into a S#&$fit about my personal expression of how I perceive the debacle. Not even whole expression, just a small part of it - which, admittedly, I could have worded better.

[(XBOX)DancesInShadow]

5 minutes ago, AnarchyChan said:

shhh, what are you doing? Knowing DE it can be true

I said nothing! I dunno what you're talking about.

[Naskoni]

1 minute ago, TheZathel said:

Aaaand you're back where you started - with putting words in my mouth, this time also claiming they are excuses. I'm not responsible for your inability to correctly comprehend and contextualize written English.

"Let me not read anything posted in this thread (because I'm that special), post some random crap basically calling everyone posting in said thread incessant screechy whiners and then post even more random crap calling people illiterate because I'm always right and my insults are actually simply ´calling things as they are´ and ´truth stings so you are salty´!"

[AnarchyChan]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DancesInShadow said:

I said nothing! I dunno what you're talking about.

I've pointed your misspell

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, TheZathel said:

Well it was you that instead of addressing my argument, focused on getting into a S#&$fit about my personal expression of how I perceive the debacle. Not even whole expression, just a small part of it - which, admittedly, I could have worded better.

Fair enough, and to address your original point...

The damage to social clans comes about because by setting Hema research costs at a level that some social clans see as unattainable, it could appear that DE are implying that social clans are not viable or desired.

It's also at odds with comments made by Rebecca during the podcast following last week's Devstream, where she stated that efforts would be made to ensure all clans could participate in the upcoming 'investigation' feature, even solo ghost clans.

My take on it is that DE were genuinely trying to get the balance of 'friction' right and provide some incentive for even veterans to buy the Hema with plat, or be faced with some real in-game effort to obtain it for free. But they didn't fully think through the effect it would have on different types of clans, and rather than addressing that mistake have chosen to double-down with their misguided comments about 'honouring' clans who have completed the research, despite copious examples of other occasions when they have done the exact opposite.

[TheZathel]

9 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Fair enough, and to address your original point...

The damage to social clans comes about because by setting Hema research costs at a level that some social clans see as unattainable, it could appear that DE are implying that social clans are not viable or desired.

It's also at odds with comments made by Rebecca during the podcast following last week's Devstream, where she stated that efforts would be made to ensure all clans could participate in the upcoming 'investigation' feature, even solo ghost clans.

My take on it is that DE were genuinely trying to get the balance of 'friction' right and provide some incentive for even veterans to buy the Hema with plat, or be faced with some real in-game effort to obtain it for free. But they didn't fully think through the effect it would have on different types of clans, and rather than addressing that mistake have chosen to double-down with their misguided comments about 'honouring' clans who have completed the research, despite copious examples of other occasions when they have done the exact opposite.

Thank you!

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced though... on several points. Two (well, one, in two aspects) I can properly formulate offhand.

First, I might be nitpicking here, but technically "unattainable" here is just a matter of perception of people who are used to instant gratification. Which seemed to be the name of the game generally, excluding singular cases like Vauban Prime or Hema. From publisher and developer perspective, such things are not really beneficial overall. They want things to take time and effort to obtain, and not only to push plat-based sales. Which brings me to the second point...

Expectations. Why should a social clan, whose players put in, say, tenth of time and effort (combined - lets say maybe half the time but they don't focus on optimal farming compositions, for example) what a hardcore dedicated clan puts in should obtain new content in comparably similar time frame? Why do they feel entitled to access to entirely optional weapon on the same basis? 5k base mutagen sample cost is not an insurmountable obstacle. It's not trying to obtain an item that does not drop in the game anymore, to give a slightly exaggerated example. It requires base minimum of coordination and community effort. Doing an ODD or ODS run every other day (with a nekros and hydroid) for half an hour would quickly add up in the long run. The problem is that for some, "long run" is a dealbreaker... but they still want the shiny.

Well, unless you think playing for an hour three times a week is hardcore. I'm not sure we can compromise on this point though.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, Naskoni said:

And what do we call people that don't read any of those threads, never understand what their actual purpose is and simply drop some random crap 50 pages later stating obvious things addressed 20+ times in said threads as if they discovered the wheel and thus enlightened the filthy, ignorant masses with their Augustine presence?

Let's try and focus on message and not messenger.  It's hard sometimes when we are all so passionate.

On a positive, complementary note:. +111 for "Augustine Presence."  Skillful prose appreciation ftw.

As to concerns about Social clans, my clan, Dark Aura, convened a quick, impromptu meeting in chat and formulated a game plan and common sense approach.

Clan unity was most important via individual choice, but those who wanted to focus on the Hema research were empowered to do so.  Many of our more enthusiastic members went on a recruiting spree.

Farming is encouraged but absolutely NOT required and we don't want members doing it to the detriment of a fun clan/Warframe game experience.

You won't be ostracized if you aren't grind-focused.  You won't be seen as "enabling the trend" if you DO grind or buy the Hema.

Unlike the forums, no divisiveness IN OUR DOJO.  Clan unity and fun > Hema implications.

It will probably take us 3-6 months. 

 

[toafarmer]

Man, I'm impressed with all the work the 2 or 3 whiteknights are putting into answering all the posts of the other dozens of people. Your efforts won't change anyone's mind nor the fact that the cost is obviously broken, but hey...