HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Flirk2]

49 minutes ago, Jobistober said:

And you expect DE to take you seriously and do you a favor when you talk to them like this?

No.

After all this time, I don't think there are many people who expect anything from DE.

50 minutes ago, Jobistober said:

Way to take the high road.

Well yes. That was not very polite. But you have to wonder, if you explained again and again and again with numbers, charts and examples why exactly Hema research cost is insane... all to no avail... High road just didn't seem to work.

Can't exactly blame people for trying a different approach.

And yes. Some people hand out Hema blueprints out of that kind of feeling. And after the recent event some people hand out Ignis Wraith blueprints because they did not like how it was set up to make probably 8 out of 10 people in the 10% highest scoring clans ''hardcore registered losers''.

But even if you don't account for DE. They work in mysterious ways, after all... It's hard to stay polite when people come here to state something like ''This is still going on? You would already got it if you farmed. LOL''. Completely disregarding every argument that was made. 90+ pages of discussion basically boiling down to:

-''This grind wall is insane''

-''if you farmed you would get it already''

-''We have it already, it's still insane''

-''if you farmed it you could get it already''

And so on ad nauseam.

Hard to stay polite when your arguments are not countered, but just ignored.

[kaliazane]

6 hours ago, Jobistober said:

And you expect DE to take you seriously and do you a favor when you talk to them like this?

Way to take the high road.

Oh it's been like this from beginning in these complaining threads, it's quite shocking that some people are even attempting to justify such behaviour.

 

[Liminal]

7 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

It's hard to stay polite when people come here to state something like ''This is still going on? You would already got it if you farmed. LOL''. Completely disregarding every argument that was made. 90+ pages of discussion basically boiling down to:

-''This grind wall is insane''

-''if you farmed you would get it already''

-''We have it already, it's still insane''

-''if you farmed it you could get it already''

And so on ad nauseam.

Hard to stay polite when your arguments are not countered, but just ignored.

It's better to just ignore those people though.
When someone doesn't even try to address the points you make and instead just repeat the same unrelated things over and over, they are being disrespectful. Not rude enough to be punished by a moderator, but enough to derail a thread or annoy anybody who's looking for coherent dialogue.

The best course of action is to stop wasting time on them, as the "content" of their posts is worthless.

[Gamma745]

Ok, been reading through this thread and seeing both sides...

(The research cost is insane) >< (You could've gotten it if you've farmed it)

 

What I see is that both sides are already getting too irritated at each other, and almost throwing insults and belittling each other.

 

Personally, I'm think the cost need to be reduced, or at the very least made on even level with the others.

But I can also see the point of making research cost a communal effort. You're in a clan and you're supposed to work (or at least, play) together.

 

So, how about this crazy idea? Instead of reducing the cost for Hema research, raise every other research cost to match! Multiply every other existing research cost in every lab by 100 (I mean, Hema research cost is almost 100 times more than the most expensive item, right?)

For example, the Jat Kittag:

Detonite Ampule : 15 -> 1500

Salvage : 500 -> 50.000

Alloy Plate: 200 -> 20.000

Ferrite: 350 -> 35.000

With that, no more outlier. No more Pac-man like chart. (Although, I realized that most vet probably have thousands of these resources, so it's not that hard for them....)

 

But here's the catch. Make every item in the clan research tradeable. Make it that even people who don't have a clan can still get the items in question.

Because the way I see it, the argument for those who defended the Hema cost is "kick the inactive" "Downgrade your clan". It's basically saying "Forget the casuals and inactive and only accept those who can play very frequently. Casuals and barely actives shouldn't be in a clan and shouldn't have a clan."

This way, a clan is made by only those who are willing to sink time into the cost, and those who probably only play once every two weeks can get it from them.

 

I realize this idea is actually counter-productive, since it will lock out those casuals from the new upcoming Kingpin system DE want to release.

 

I would like to see both sides respond to this crazy idea. How about it?

Edited April 7, 2017 by Gamma745
Additional thoughts.

[DoomFruit]

4 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

So, how about this crazy idea? Instead of reducing the cost for Hema research, raise every other research cost to match! Multiply every other existing research cost in every lab by 100 (I mean, Hema research cost is almost 100 times more than the most expensive item, right?)

For example, the Jat Kittag:

Detonite Ampule : 15 -> 1500

Salvage : 500 -> 50.000

Alloy Plate: 200 -> 20.000

Ferrite: 350 -> 35.000

With that, no more outlier. No more Pac-man like chart. (Although, I realized that most vet probably have thousands of these resources, so it's not that hard for them....)

That is a very bad idea. For reference, my mutagen sample count, after 4 years of gameplay, is 2.5k. At my current rate, I would have to play the game for 8 years to get enough to research the hema on my own. It'll take 8 years to accumulate 5k mutagens, so 0.8 years (or just over 9 months) to get 500. This means that a completely full clan would have to spend 9 months to get each item.

One item every nine months. That's terrible. And it's the best-case scenario for your situation.

Edited April 7, 2017 by DoomFruit

[Gamma745]

3 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

That is a very bad idea. For reference, my mutagen sample count, after 4 years of gameplay, is 2.5k. At my current rate, I would have to play the game for 8 years to get enough to research the hema on my own. It'll take 8 years to accumulate 5k mutagens, so 0.8 years (or just over 9 months) to get 500. This means that a completely full clan would have to spend 9 months to get each item.

One item every nine months. That's terrible.

I understand that, but try telling it to those people who said "I can got 200 in one run, ezpz".

[low1991]

Question: is the mutagen sample increased (as per patch?) or unchanged?

Gotten 12 sample from 1 40mins ODS. (Estimated ETA for 500 sample = 500/12sample* 40mins/60mins an hr = 27.7hours)

On my case, where my clan basically given up. that's 100k worth of samples. That's 5,540 hours. (~1 month of endless ODS farming to 40mins).

Has the estimation per 500/per player increased?

[Flirk2]

6 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

So, how about this crazy idea? Instead of reducing the cost for Hema research, raise every other research cost to match! Multiply every other existing research cost in every lab by 100 (I mean, Hema research cost is almost 100 times more than the most expensive item, right?)

So you want to swap inconsistent insanity for consistent one?

If you are in a clan with everything researched and not going to even try thinking how much effort would prices like that take...

Let me tell you what a change like that will do.

It will end the formation of new clans. Plain and simple. There is no point even trying. I tried to make and alternate account and start a solo ghost clan just to experience the research. The most annoying bottle neck on it were mutagen samples. Even before Hema. Then Hema happened, and that account got abandoned. Because there is just no way for an average solo ghost clan to get Hema researched and still enjoy the game to any extent.

Now, Hema is a ''grind wall'' of epic proportions.

Your suggestion to build a ''grind city'' around it in order for Hema to not stand out... That's an endgame right there and then.

Basically it'll effectively remove research as an element of the game. A new player who wanted to get all the research done was looking at spending quite a few more than 70 hours average total play time. Yet, you could get the research done in 300, maybe 500 hours of play time without boosters or trading until Hema happened.

Make every item like Hema and there will probably be 1 new clan that would be able to do it. And it would be a ghost clan consisting of people with more than 2k hours each. 

But even those... I strongly suspect won't even try to fund all those researches that will take 100 nitain or 100 tellurium instead of 1...

[Gamma745]

4 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

So you want to swap inconsistent insanity for consistent one?

If you are in a clan with everything researched and not going to even try thinking how much effort would prices like that take...

Let me tell you what a change like that will do.

It will end the formation of new clans. Plain and simple. There is no point even trying. I tried to make and alternate account and start a solo ghost clan just to experience the research. The most annoying bottle neck on it were mutagen samples. Even before Hema. Then Hema happened, and that account got abandoned. Because there is just no way for an average solo ghost clan to get Hema researched and still enjoy the game to any extent.

Now, Hema is a ''grind wall'' of epic proportions.

Your suggestion to build a ''grind city'' around it in order for Hema to not stand out... That's an endgame right there and then.

Basically it'll effectively remove research as an element of the game. A new player who wanted to get all the research done was looking at spending quite a few more than 70 hours average total play time. Yet, you could get the research done in 300, maybe 500 hours of play time without boosters or trading until Hema happened.

Make every item like Hema and there will probably be 1 new clan that would be able to do it. And it would be a ghost clan consisting of people with more than 2k hours each. 

But even those... I strongly suspect won't even try to fund all those researches that will take 100 nitain or 100 tellurium instead of 1...

Okay, that's the opinion of the (the cost is insane) side. I would like to hear those who defended the Hema research now...

 

Just to be clear, that post is meant as a sarcastic jab to those who think that level of grind is reasonable.

(You can grind Hema in just a few day, right? Clan research is supposed to be a communal effort and long term goal, right?)

[ChuckMaverick]

7 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

So, how about this crazy idea? Instead of reducing the cost for Hema research, raise every other research cost to match! Multiply every other existing research cost in every lab by 100 (I mean, Hema research cost is almost 100 times more than the most expensive item, right?)

A more reasonable idea would be to reduce the Hema costs by a factor of 10, and increase all* other research costs by a factor of 10.

That way all of them require a non-trivial amount of effort, but none are excessive.

(* Note: There are some other research outliers that should have their costs increased by less than a factor of 10, or only for some materials.)

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

A more reasonable idea would be to reduce the Hema costs by a factor of 10, and increase all* other research costs by a factor of 10.

That would still be a grind wall of Hema proportions.

about 500 mutagen samples needed to research Bio Lab without Hema.

A solo ghost clan would be even worse off if is was 5000 for everything and then 500 more for Hema.

If you look at the research cost you can clearly see the pricing model that was used before the inflation started. Every research in a solo ghost clan needed no more than 1 hour of concentrated farming without boosters. It was reasonable. It made sense in the light of 70 hours of average total play time. It kept farming resources for research at a level where a player won't get bored of it enough to go play something else.

It also kept progression at reasonably fast level. And that's important. Almost anyone with only 2 or 3 MR-giving items missing from their profile can confirm...

Adding a 10x multiplier to the grind won't make the situation better.

[Liminal]

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

A more reasonable idea would be to reduce the Hema costs by a factor of 10, and increase all* other research costs by a factor of 10.

That way all of them require a non-trivial amount of effort, but none are excessive.

(* Note: There are some other research outliers that should have their costs increased by less than a factor of 10, or only for some materials.)

Maybe, but they'd also need to make research materials drop from their respective factions instead of specific planets, it's the only way to give fieldron, detonite and mutagen samples the same value.

[Gamma745]

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

A more reasonable idea would be to reduce the Hema costs by a factor of 10, and increase all* other research costs by a factor of 10.

That way all of them require a non-trivial amount of effort, but none are excessive.

(* Note: There are some other research outliers that should have their costs increased by less than a factor of 10, or only for some materials.)

But that would still decrease the cost, and those Hema defenders would still say foul.

29 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Maybe, but they'd also need to make research materials drop from their respective factions instead of specific planets, it's the only way to give fieldron, detonite and mutagen samples the same value.

That would be one of the best way to handle the resource distribution, or the lack of balance thereof. It would mean a little overhaul of the resource drop table, a replacement of the missing resource when the research material is taken out.

[Gamma745]

6 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

If you are in a clan with everything researched and not going to even try thinking how much effort would prices like that take...

Let me tell you what a change like that will do.

It will end the formation of new clans. Plain and simple. There is no point even trying. I tried to make and alternate account and start a solo ghost clan just to experience the research. The most annoying bottle neck on it were mutagen samples. Even before Hema. Then Hema happened, and that account got abandoned. Because there is just no way for an average solo ghost clan to get Hema researched and still enjoy the game to any extent.

You know, I also have another idea to make it "fair":

All existing clan would have all of their research cancelled. The resources contributed would go to the clan vault, obviously. But every clan would have to start over from scratch, old or new, with the new cost. No one would be put at an advantage.

 

But that it just especially cruel. And since this is a joke idea...

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I bought the hema with a 50% off coupon...got a riven which gives 100% status chance. Its still mediocre...needs a full auto secondary function. Farm more or buy it...but plz quit ur blubbering.

[Gamma745]

1 minute ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

- ... - Farm more or buy it...but plz quit ur blubbering.

Sure! I'll just farm it some more. Considering the rate I get Mutagen Sample by playing, I should be able to get it in 2037. No problem there!

[Flirk2]

13 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

All existing clan would have all of their research cancelled.

With every single clantech item removed from every single player along with respective MR points.

Now that would be fair...

9 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I bought the hema with a 50% off coupon...got a riven which gives 100% status chance. Its still mediocre...needs a full auto secondary function. Farm more or buy it...but plz quit ur blubbering.

If you didn't bother to read the actual complaints, why does the very fact that people are complaining bother you?

Edited April 7, 2017 by Flirk2

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Because its not a big deal. Making a mountain out of mole hill.

[Justice_Ember]

People refusing to accept logic is what this thread stagnant. everything comes down to 500 mutagen mass per player IF 100% active full membership, from there on it deteriorates, so people with 10% or less see an insane grindwall while others closer to those numbers won't see it that way. 

There are issues that everyone knows about for a long time but either refuses to acknowledge or just doesn't care, and that is veteran players completing researches by themselves, dojo weapons should be a clan effort not a guarantee. And that's what the Hema was, a research that made people WORK TOGETHER (or jump clans).

IMO more weapons should have insane grindwalls, but also higher tier clans should get some benefit, even if little, and there's a whole other bunch of stuff that needs to show up. But yeah, is not about complaining or not, is about

1. Is your clan in the right tier?
2. How good is your clan balance when it comes to contributions?

[Flirk2]

10 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

everything comes down to 500 mutagen mass per player

Which is the same amount of every other research in the Bio Lab combined in a solo ghost clan.

You can ignore the problem. But saying a minimum 10x increase in grind is a good thing... I don't know how to respond to that.

11 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

IMO more weapons should have insane grindwalls,

Effectively barring new players from making new clans.

Like the existing grind is not enough.

All that ''veterans this'' and ''veterans that'' is such a strange argument in a game where 70 hours is an average total play time.

How can anyone think that some players having a lot of resources is a just cause for price inflation is beyond me.

I was talking with a clan mate that has 2.6k hours in the game. He told me that he had 600k endo. To which I responded that my ''end game'' at the moment is to gather 1M cryotic, and I'm at 712k at this point. He said he has about 70k.

Now imagine the price reevaluation based on player stockpiles.

Prime mod costing about 200k endo to max because someone has 600k, and Sibear costing 300k cryotic to build because I have 700k.

Sounds fair to you?

So called ''veterans'' are irrelevant. Few people stay for that long. If you want to give them something to do, add about 1k ''challenges'' like that ''revive 1000 allies''.

Setting up a system where 2k hours of play time is a requirement will not improve anyone's experience.

[Justice_Ember]

54 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

everything comes down to 500 mutagen mass per player IF 100% active full membership, from there on it deteriorates, so people with 10% or less see an insane grindwall while others closer to those numbers won't see it that way. 

Which is the same amount of every other research in the Bio Lab combined in a solo ghost clan.

You can ignore the problem. But saying a minimum 10x increase in grind is a good thing... I don't know how to respond to that.

I guess Bolding and Underlining it wasn't enough to clarify how important that IF was... Please read again considering the whole sentence instead of taking me out of context.

55 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Effectively barring new players from making new clans.

Barring new clans to get everything right away you mean, again, collective effort is the idea behind a clan.

57 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Like the existing grind is not enough.

Actually so far only the Hema has made people NEED to work together or a lot longer, so yeah existing grind wasn't enough.

At last but not least, if you want everything handed to you just say it, no need to invent statistc and make up bs economics. 

[Liminal]

1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Because its not a big deal. Making a mountain out of mole hill.

"No big deal" is an opinion. We've presented several facts which you are ignoring. Therefore you are not contributing to the thread.

Either engage in a coherent discussion or just don't bother with this thread... "but plz quit ur blubbering."

[Flirk2]

20 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

Barring new clans to get everything right away you mean, again, collective effort is the idea behind a clan.

As it is, you need to spend quite a bit of time if you were to fund the research even without the Hema.

''Right away'' that you are talking about is in the 2 - 3 months of playing almost exclusively towards research. Forma gear? Forget it. Every room in the dojo needs a forma.

Build stuff just to get MR points? Not for a solo ghost clan. MR 12 is what you are aiming for. Everything else resource wise will go for building dojo and research.

If you have not tried it yourself, you can't exactly feel the grind.

Now consider 10x increase. 2-3 months of ''right away'' x10 means 2-3 years of ''not right away''. How many people do you know that are up to such a commitment?

20 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

Actually so far only the Hema has made people NEED to work together or a lot longer, so yeah existing grind wasn't enough.

If you would just read the thread, you would see what ''working together" looked like. People get invited into a clan, contributing, then thrown out, for example.

And those who did work together? I don't remember any one person that said: ''Thank DE for the opportunity to run Derelicts for hours! We missed it badly''.

The closest thing I saw is ''At least it gives us something to do'' And that, IMO, is not a reaction a game developer should seek.

20 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

At last but not least, if you want everything handed to you just say it, no need to invent statistc and make up bs economics.

How nice of you to call everything I posted ''invented statistic and bs economics''. Do you have actual counter arguments to the points I made? No? Then kindly find some.

FYI.

http://steamspy.com/app/230410

Playtime total: 68:31 (average) 04:31 (median)

How about that for ''invented statistics''...

I won't even start with your ''bs economics'' statement. Too angry at the moment.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Flirk2

[Jobistober]

40 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

"No big deal" is an opinion. We've presented several facts which you are ignoring. Therefore you are not contributing to the thread.

Either engage in a coherent discussion or just don't bother with this thread... "but plz quit ur blubbering."

Actually, it's more of a perspective than an opinion, which I believe he's just trying to get y'all to see from his point of view, but whatever...

At this point, no one is contributing anything new to this thread. All the facts and numbers and spreadsheets have been posted ad nauseum. There's nothing left to contribute. The point has been made, the facts presented, but DE is not budging. Now everyone is sour because Space Mom and Dad have put their foot down and said no. After 3+ months, 100 pages and 2500 replies, this thread is the equivalent of a ^(blubbering) teenager saying they hate their parents because they didn't get their way. Time to move on.

[Ditto132]

17 hours ago, The_Doc said:

It's better to just ignore those people though.
When someone doesn't even try to address the points you make and instead just repeat the same unrelated things over and over, they are being disrespectful. Not rude enough to be punished by a moderator, but enough to derail a thread or annoy anybody who's looking for coherent dialogue.

The best course of action is to stop wasting time on them, as the "content" of their posts is worthless.

Wanted to ignore, but these people are pushing Warframe into the wrong direction and making things worse.

34 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

How about that for ''invented statistics''...

Since he claimed that those data as "invented statistics", he probably won't even bother looking at those data and facts to understand the situation, and remain in delusion.