HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Gamma745]

11 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

You decide. Your idea.
Not sure if you saw these and other clan related posts, see if it helps, add/link them if you want.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/744013-hema-final-word-no-mutagen-drop-or-cost-change/?page=88#comment-8494684

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/744013-hema-final-word-no-mutagen-drop-or-cost-change/?page=90#comment-8521286

 

Hmm, I'll think about it. The basic point of your table is, larger clan could use a little "discount" to the clan research, right? I'll link it as well along with my idea.

That being said though, where should I post it? Here?

My idea seems kinda counterproductive to the initial post and concern.

[Ditto132]

31 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

My idea seems kinda counterproductive to the initial post and concern.

The "research upgrade" idea still need more refinement before posting, from the look of it. It would have the same issue with the Ignis Wraith and The Pacifism Defect event.

Regarding my "discount" idea, it is because larger clans should have more leeway and some form of benefits.
Otherwise, there are not much benefits and reasons to upsize your clan and to be in a larger clan.
Larger clans are harder to manage, higher research costs, lower participation rate compared to smaller clans.
I mean, see how many people suggesting larger clans to downsize...

The idea is so that larger clan have the benefit to be able to fulfill the research cost with lesser effort with highly active clan compared to smaller clan with similar participation.
And the larger clan wouldn't be heavily penalized as much due to lesser participation and encourage clan to maintain at least 10% active which is equal to Solo Ghost clan.

Personally and based on my experience, "balancing" different level of clan tier by linearly scaling doesn't make much sense.
"500 Mutagen Samples per person" just doesn't scale properly for large gap, similar to those old warframe abilities.

[ChuckMaverick]

The rewards for the "research upgrade" option would need to be something other than a slot plus a potato.

Slots, potatoes and forma are some of the biggest plat sinks (and therefore money makers) for DE, you can't give those out for free without replacing that lost income somehow.

It is an intriguing idea though, worth some more exploration.

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, Ditto132 said:

The "research upgrade" idea still need more refinement before posting, from the look of it. It would have the same issue with the Ignis Wraith and The Pacifism Defect event.

Regarding my "discount" idea, it is because larger clans should have more leeway and some form of benefits.
Otherwise, there are not much benefits and reasons to upsize your clan and to be in a larger clan.
Larger clans are harder to manage, higher research costs, lower participation rate compared to smaller clans.
I mean, see how many people suggesting larger clans to downsize...

The idea is so that larger clan have the benefit to be able to fulfill the research cost with lesser effort with highly active clan compared to smaller clan with similar participation.
And the larger clan wouldn't be heavily penalized as much due to lesser participation and encourage clan to maintain at least 10% active which is equal to Solo Ghost clan.

Personally and based on my experience, "balancing" different level of clan tier by linearly scaling doesn't make much sense.
"500 Mutagen Samples per person" just doesn't scale properly for large gap, similar to those old warframe abilities.

Yeah, my idea would probably aggravate two problems that are existing: Plat fee to join clans and Clan ninjas (people who join just to get stuff and leaves)

The discount idea makes more sense, but like you said balancing the large gap around the tiers is just hard to do. Honestly speaking, large clan should get some benefits other than able to host more people. But right now, I have no idea what that should be (well, other than the clan tier discount you mentioned).

 

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The rewards for the "research upgrade" option would need to be something other than a slot plus a potato.

Slots, potatoes and forma are some of the biggest plat sinks (and therefore money makers) for DE, you can't give those out for free without replacing that lost income somehow.

It is an intriguing idea though, worth some more exploration.

Well, that's why I said I'm against giving it a slot, mainly because it's too exploitable. You still need a slot to get the items.

Funny how you said that slot, potato and forma are biggest plat sinks in the game. I don't think we can get definite data on that, since that is DE financial secret. But I can understand why that would be the case.

Thanks for the support. Really appreciate it.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Gamma745

[Dabluechimp]

My biggest problem with this, is that I fear that DE is getting greedy and focusing more on the money than the quality of the game content
warframe is obviously a F2P game so they need some sort of income, but there is a line between need and greed
and I think we all know how that ruins games
Looking at you EA

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, Gamma745 said:

Funny how you said that slot, potato and forma are biggest plat sinks in the game. I don't think we can get definite data on that, since that is DE financial secret. But I can understand why that would be the case.

Well DE confirmed as part of Rebecca's 'pop quiz' during PAX Australia that the 3-forma bundle was the best selling item in the market, the potatoes and slots are just a logical extrapolation of that.

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, Gamma745 said:

Yeah, my idea would probably aggravate two problems that are existing: Plat fee to join clans and Clan ninjas (people who join just to get stuff and leaves)

The discount idea makes more sense, but like you said balancing the large gap around the tiers is just hard to do. Honestly speaking, large clan should get some benefits other than able to host more people. But right now, I have no idea what that should be (well, other than the clan tier discount you mentioned).

It is very difficult to have a robust system that deal with integrity issues well.
Things such as:

• AFK leechers in mission (sometime you just want to help out friends)
• Trolling (Switch Teleport, Worm Hole, Banish, choosing to extract at the last second in Defense)
• Keysharing (Relic prevent this but also no more carrying/helping out friends)

Large gap cause issues if not handle properly. You would have "all these nerf this and that weapon" because they seem OP at lower level or with specific setup and tactic.
That is why I don't think that Riven mods are a good solution to encourage lesser used weapons, since it widen the gap.
Another thing to note is that newer players almost unable to catch up with the veterans.

29 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Well DE confirmed as part of Rebecca's 'pop quiz' during PAX Australia that the 3-forma bundle was the best selling item in the market, the potatoes and slots are just a logical extrapolation of that.

Might be one of the reasons why Pandero and Tenora come with no polarity at all.
But I think it is ok, since veterans have some forma and those weapons are fun and worth the forma. DE can earn from players buying forma too.

Personally, I believe that slots are the most brought, since forma can be gotten from prime farming and potato from invasion and Gift from the Lotus during devStream.
Maybe slot purchases didn't show up as an option because it is directly purchased and not considered an item.
And there is the Tennogen and comestics...

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

On 4/7/2017 at 3:23 PM, Ditto132 said:

What logic is that?
So players should go do more boring farming when they get bored?

Don't use any meta, loot frames, and boosters.
Then tell me what a piece of cake the research is.

Why not use them? I know for a fact you've got them. They are super easy to obtain.

[Flirk2]

12 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Joining someone else is still considered team play. You still look for groups and organizing. I thought we're talking about solo play there.

What I meant was a solo player could either use non-endless void keys at about the same rate as a solo player can use relics now... but with hefty credit reward for every key used, which is totally missing in the new relic system...

Or he could join someone who has the keys he needs. And it didn't matter if his group would be full as far as rewards go. You could team up with 1 other person, use 1 key and get the same drops as in a full team.

That's not even starting with the endless mission types.

Even solo, even if you would go only for one rotation C at a time... there were still 2 or more prime parts per mission on average.

Now 1 relic 1 loot item. Sometimes it's a forma blueprint. So to go ''ducat farming'' you need to go ''relic farming'' first. Not get one survival key and stay in a mission for an hour, rolling for loot a whooping 12 times. You now need to farm 12 relics if you were to try and get 12 prime parts.

Spending about the same amount of time in relic farming missions that you would spend in the old void feels quite a bit less rewarding. Seeing as you never get credit rewards from opening relics, and relics themselves drop at lower than 100% drop rate.

In short, I remember feeling less disappointment from not getting the stuff from the old void, than I feel disappointment from getting the stuff from the new relic system. Strangely enough, when the item I seek eventually drops, I don't feel overjoyed, like I did in the old void.

Might be me. I know some people like the relic system more. But I know as well that I'm not alone in feeling like this.

12 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Or are you saying that the keys were dropping more frequently in rotation B and C compared to Relics?

Keys dropped 100% from rotation B of any excavation.

Now on Hieracon you get 50% for Neo on B and 77.44% for Axi on rotation C.

The end result? You get slightly more relics than you got keys in the long run.

But sometimes you can finish a 2k cryotic run with 2 or 3 relics to show for it.... That's 10 ''relic'' rotations.

Now compare to the guaranteed 5 keys. Even if all of them were non-endless... you still could host 5 void missions with them. Getting from 5 to 20 void mission rewards for your group (depending on if you go solo or with others, and how many others)  and an opportunity to spare 3 people from key farming.

What's more, you could do a 300 cryotic excavation as a group. And then use the keys you got. Let's say you got a non-endless key? You still could roll for loot 4 times.

Now? Well, you get to 300 cryotic and half the time you don't get a relic. Then you get to 400, with a 1/4 chance to not get a relic as well. And even if you get a relic? Your group can only roll for loot 4 times, but you'll get only 1 thing with those 4 relics you, as a group, got.

And if you solo, you won't even get to chose. 1 relic - 1 loot roll. And how long will you need to stay in excavation to get that relic will depend on your luck.

What's more, there are precious few missions that give lith and meso relics with a drop chance of more than 50%... And not even one that is high enough level to get anything else.

Funny enough, it's still ''raining relics'' more than it's ''raining mutagen'', if you remove the loot abilities and boosters from consideration.

12 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

But I can suggest a small advice: use the time you farm ducat fodder to farm traces as well.

There is no other option... You know you can't get traces from endless fissures if you are not opening relics, right?

Just think about it.

Oh, and if you solo an endless fissure, you won't get enough reactant to actually open the relic half the time, as the spawns and drop rates are too low... And every rotation the reactant counter is reset.

12 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

I agree on that. When the relic system removed leechers, they also removed the ability for people to carry their friends.

Funny how I never had a problem with ''leechers''. The keys kept piling up, so I had no problem with using mine.

Those people who joined a ''key share'' without a key were strange indeed. I mean, there were always ''H something something'' in the recruiting with no strings attached.

Try to find a ''H something something, bring any relic'' now...

11 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Reduce the Hema research cost. Make it even with other research so that solo clan can afford it with reasonable time.

 

But for those who want to go the extra mile, give the clan an option to "upgrade" their research. For an extra cost, maybe like the current Hema cost (You know, counted with full clan and optimal condition), the clan can make the lab give fully crafted weapon with a catalyst installed, instead of just a blueprint. Those who wanted to just get the weapon are not locked out, but those who put some (okay, a lot of) effort are rewarded with something extra for their trouble. I'm kinda against it giving a slot as well though, since that is easily exploitable.

I think the sensible option would be cosmetics. Skins that you could research by the same way color research works.

Could make a Hema research worthy price on it. People who need a resource sink would still do it.

And every time there is a new weapon skin introduced to the market, and old one could be made into a research.

Could even implement a ''research data sample'' like pigments, but that would get dropped in missions like spying, interception and mobile defense as an added mission reward only when the research is started. With higher level missions giving more of them.

10 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

So a Ghost clan getting everything from scratch in about 3 months is not right away? and times 10 with the same amount of people? why?

Because research times and research trees that need one thing researched to start with the next. And build times for dojo. But you'll never know how long it actually takes until you try for yourself.

10 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Woah, hard hitting numbers from an official source, oh wait, right, sorry your angriness, you were right all along.

Well, I see.

If you don't have any counter arguments, only general distrust in the sources I base my arguments on, than I won't even try to persuade you anymore.

Not that I had much hope from the start... Lost it on about page 20 of this thread...

Edited April 10, 2017 by Flirk2

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

In short, I remember feeling less disappointment from not getting the stuff from the old void, than I feel disappointment from getting the stuff from the new relic system. Strangely enough, when the item I seek eventually drops, I don't feel overjoyed, like I did in the old void.

Might be me. I know some people like the relic system more. But I know as well that I'm not alone in feeling like this.

Well, I know some people do miss the old void, I won't try to argue which one is better or worse. Each system has it's own pros and cons.

 

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

Keys dropped 100% from rotation B of any excavation.

Now on Hieracon you get 50% for Neo on B and 77.44% for Axi on rotation C.

Okay, a quick browse on the Wiki history shows this is true. Won't argue with that.

 

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

There is no other option... You know you can't get traces from endless fissures if you are not opening relics, right?

Just think about it.

Oh, and if you solo an endless fissure, you won't get enough reactant to actually open the relic half the time, as the spawns and drop rates are too low... And every rotation the reactant counter is reset.

Um, yes you can. You're welcome to try it if you want. You don't get any Prime parts, but you can still get traces provided you collect enough reactant.

And, not being able to get enough reactant, maybe at the higher levels. I occasionally play endless fissure alone (granted it's mostly Lith and Meso tier, since that is where most of my relic is) and able to get prime parts on each rotation. Haven't tried much on Axi, so I'll assume you're talking there.

 

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

Try to find a ''H something something, bring any relic'' now...

Yeah, I think I only saw someone post that once ever since SotR. Haven't seen any since.

 

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

I think the sensible option would be cosmetics. Skins that you could research by the same way color research works.

Could make a Hema research worthy price on it. People who need a resource sink would still do it.

And every time there is a new weapon skin introduced to the market, and old one could be made into a research.

Could even implement a ''research data sample'' like pigments, but that would get dropped in missions like spying, interception and mobile defense as an added mission reward only when the research is started. With higher level missions giving more of them.

Cosmetic, huh? as in skin specific for the weapon researched? Yeah, that could be a good idea. ChuckMaverick said that built-in potatoes could cause problems.

Old weapon skin turned into research, I assume you're talking about existing weapons skin such as the Gemini Nikana skin? Or are you talking about the new ones introduced through the clan? If it's the former, wouldn't it reduce plat sale for the skin? And a lot of the skins available from the market are not even for research weapons. If it's the latter, I'm kinda confused about your wording.

"research data sample" on top of the extra cost, huh? To make it that people actually put some effort? Well, that is what they want, so I won't judge them.

[Justice_Ember]

2 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Because research times and research trees that need one thing researched to start with the next. And build times for dojo. But you'll never know how long it actually takes until you try for yourself.

Assuming I didn't, classy. One thing are research trees another is wanting to have a bigger clan than your active player base allows, A Ghost clan can get everything in under 3 months with 5 active players over MR15, and that's a short &#! time for 50%.

BTW I tried finding the source of steamspy, as well as other sources, there's nothing that's even remotely reliable. But that's besides the point, what matters is avoiding leechers, oversizing and how many players can cover up for others, those 3 points should help in making a decision on who stays on a clan and who gets booted as well as what size should the clan really be.

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, Gamma745 said:

You don't get any Prime parts, but you can still get traces provided you collect enough reactant.

Once per mission. If you don't have a relic on one rotation, you won't get anything from the next.

You can do trace farming without relics on non-endless and at the end of the endless run. But not an endless trace farm as far as I know.

I'll test that once more, but I'm pretty sure there were no changes to it.

1 hour ago, Gamma745 said:

If it's the former, wouldn't it reduce plat sale for the skin?

Well, having weapons research in dojo doesn't reduce their market value.

Why skins would?

Especially since you could put an insane price tag on them, and you can't trade them.

And you can put any skin as a research. Why not?

Though clan tech skins for clan tech weapons and maybe even frames would really entice some effort from more people.

59 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

A Ghost clan can get everything in under 3 months with 5 active players over MR15, and that's a short &#! time for 50%.

Short? Wow. For a clan with half the people in it?

You seem to think people live forever.

3 months is a long time. Especially for getting things that others already got. There is a reason most people join clans and not start their own.

And well, if you did try, and still think it's too fast, then your view of appropriate speed of progression in the game is not a common one.

Not many people are ready to sink as much time and progress as slow as you seem to think they should. People have lives outside of the game. And if they don't progress in the game fast enough, they lose interest. Why else there would be so many ''I have everything and nothing to do. I'm bored. Give me some endgame content'' threads? Making progress slower would just remove the ''have everything'' part, and get straight to ''I'm bored''.

I think putting a hundred and a half challenges in game and forgetting about the need to expand them with every update was a mistake by DE. There could be so much more, yet you end up with nothing but MR-related ones quite early in the game. Those could be stretch goals. Because there could be quite a lot of them made quite cheaply, spread out and giving a sense of progression.

Not hiding a sub-par burst rifle behind a mountain of mutagen samples (and openly assuming an utopian 100% clan participation), or setting event goals in the assumption of 50% participation, and not adjusting them even when by the end of it that goal was achieved by only 2 moon clans.

I mean, if ''victory tier'' was done in the assumption of 50% participation, than when 10% highest score margin ended up being less than half of that, is it not clear that one can't expect 100% participation at all?

It's the same 10x(sanity) clan multiplier they implemented with Hema (assuming 100% of possible members will contribute for the research, and not 10%, like before).

And if you look at how much you needed to do the event mission to get anything... It's about 10x (previous events). (same as with 500 mutagen sample for each instead of 50 for each of the 10% contributing members)

Edited April 10, 2017 by Flirk2

[Justice_Ember]

2 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

You seem to think people live forever.

Well, if you are a dragonfly 3 months would be a lot. In a game were you can max out after a month of constant playing I really don't see a problem with taking the time to build your own stuff. But you may be right tho, I may be the odd one out, so for now I'll step off this thread.

[ChuckMaverick]

2 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

And if they don't progress in the game fast enough, they lose interest. Why else there would be so many ''I have everything and nothing to do. I'm bored. Give me some endgame content'' threads? Making progress slower would just remove the ''have everything'' part, and get straight to ''I'm bored''.

I don't agree with this, at least not as you've worded it; progressing too fast or too slow both lead to problems with player retention, the ideal place for your game to be is the sweet spot where players consume content at roughly the same rate as developers release it, with a 'catch-up' mechanism for newer players.

If lots of players are complaining that they have nothing to do, it's a sign that your current content is being consumed too quickly, and you need to do something to either increase your content output (which costs money) or slow down players' progress.

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

In a game were you can max out after a month of constant playing I really don't see a problem with taking the time to build your own stuff.

A matter of options.

If you take your time? More power to you.

If the game takes your time? Not many people appreciate that.

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

 progressing too fast or too slow both lead to problems with player retention,

Yes. But it's a matter of how much is ''too much''?

I, for one, don't think that 3 months of playing till getting a desired item is fast. I think it's too slow, especially if you consider how many items there are to desire.

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

If lots of players are complaining that they have nothing to do, it's a sign that your current content is being consumed too quickly,

Again, not necessary too quickly. And not because of complaints.

Only people who already put in more than 200 hours are complaining about having nothing to do. And in almost any other game it would be a given.

What, I think, Warframe suffers from in that department is the ''MMO RPG'' label that people stick to it quite often. It's not an MMO and it's not an RPG. It has it's own niche. And, quite frankly, people who make complains about ''not having anything to do'' should lay off the game and wait for a massive update. Because they just overdid it. And it's normal.

That's why I think that having a grind wall like Hema is especially harmful. Sure, it gives those who don't have anything else to do something to spend their time on.

But on the other hand it can place a hard to explain wall before people who still have things to do. As the weapon doesn't unlock a level 100+ planet with new set of missions. It's just another weapon with a strange reloading mechanic that can get you killed in the right circumstances and can heal you in the other set of circumstances.

And from there someone who still has half the arsenal to try out can think: ''And how long will it take them to add a few extra grind walls? What exactly am I signing up for?''

On the other hand we have quite a few people who, while they have nothing else to do in the game, see this grind wall and think: ''I got my share of ODD when Ember Prime Blueprint dropped there. And still have nightmares from trying to get a Nova part on ODS. Is 3k mastery points worth the hassle?''

And then either buy the thing (which while good for DE in short term doesn't do anything but giving them those 3k mastery points for those players), or grind it out in an optimal manner, then proceed to complain some more about not having anything to do.

That's why I can never quite get what all those people that defend it with ''it's just another weapon'' are trying to say? If it's ''just another weapon'' then why is it so expensive? And if it's supposed to ''give veterans something to do'' than it fails miserably. As what it offers is something already present in the game and doesn't get much love - derelict resource farming.

So people who start to play won't benefit from Hema, and people who already played a lot won't get anything new from farming for it either. What's the point then? Why ruin the flow of progression with the dam made of mutagen samples?

Edited April 10, 2017 by Flirk2

[Gamma745]

7 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Once per mission. If you don't have a relic on one rotation, you won't get anything from the next.

You can do trace farming without relics on non-endless and at the end of the endless run. But not an endless trace farm as far as I know.

I'll test that once more, but I'm pretty sure there were no changes to it.

Well, I didn't know about that. Maybe some testing is needed. The more you knew...

 

7 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

And you can put any skin as a research. Why not?

Though clan tech skins for clan tech weapons and maybe even frames would really entice some effort from more people.

By this, you mean put a new research for an existing skin in the appropriate labs? For example, the forest camo skin in the Tenno lab.

And I assume by Clan tech skin you mean an entirely new skin for the correlated items?

[Darizuka]

I just bought Nidus Pack

:B

so I has Hema since day 1~

[ScribbleClash]

2 hours ago, Darizuka said:

I just bought Nidus Pack

:B

so I has Hema since day 1~

Wow, thanks for sharing that you're rather part of the problem, than discussing solutions.

About the topic, even though this discussion seems to be futile: As long as equivalents are available, locking things behind long term targets isn't too harmful. Even considering the Hema as not a big problem, means we got to make it clear that this has to be the exception and that DE should not go down the road of exclusivity (e.g. Ignis Wraith BP), as this may drive out more players, rather than make it more enticing to be active.

[Ditto132]

19 hours ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Why not use them? I know for a fact you've got them. They are super easy to obtain.

Why keep using boring meta?
You know Tonkor, Mirage+Simulor are also super easy to obtain and low requirement. Why other players are pissed off and complaining about cheezy, meta gameplay.
Why DE discouraged these types of cheezy, meta gameplay. Nerfing those meta weapons, removing beam in Akkad and now encourages meta for this Hema research?

I am not totally against meta, and most of the time I call it synergy.
That doesn't mean the standard should be set based on it.
Being able to use meta/synergy and boosters are considered bonuses, not the norm.
You would be rewarded for meta/synergy and using boosters, but you should not be punished and penalized for not doing so.

16 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Assuming I didn't, classy. One thing are research trees another is wanting to have a bigger clan than your active player base allows, A Ghost clan can get everything in under 3 months with 5 active players over MR15, and that's a short &#! time for 50%.

BTW I tried finding the source of steamspy, as well as other sources, there's nothing that's even remotely reliable. But that's besides the point, what matters is avoiding leechers, oversizing and how many players can cover up for others, those 3 points should help in making a decision on who stays on a clan and who gets booted as well as what size should the clan really be.

Being a solo Ghost clan, it took me more than 3 months(6-12hrs per day) to get almost everything researched except for color pigments and a few Bio Lab researches.
New researches are being added while I was trying to catch up.
And being a solo Ghost clan, I avoided leechers, oversizing and doesn't need to and have no one to boot. Not to mention that booting anyone in Ghost clan doesn't help in downsizing nor reducing the cost.

So that is not really applicable to Ghost clan.
Regarding active-ness of a clan, 20-30% would be more appropriate.

The gap between players are very large.
Some players could spent 6 hours or more per day while others only 1-2 hours.
Some players can contribute more and even carry friends while others unable to do so and at times would need friends to help out.
Some players started out long time ago and are veterans while others have just recently joined.

Setting the bar too high such as basing on 50% or 100% active is just ridiculous and straining to all players.
Those players who could contribute more and help make up for some of their friends, are no longer able to do so without much strain.
While players that are already having issue with contributing, made worse and being seen and labeled as liability.

These resulted in bitterness for players who farmed while waiting for new contents and stockpiled/prepared for rainy days and for friends, because of unreasonable cost.
While their normal and casual players and friends, suddenly see the huge grind wall and quit the game, leaving their veteran friends to tank the full cost and fend for themselves. And because their friends quitted, it make the game more boring and meaningless to play.

16 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Making progress slower would just remove the ''have everything'' part, and get straight to ''I'm bored''.

14 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I don't agree with this, at least not as you've worded it; progressing too fast or too slow both lead to problems with player retention, the ideal place for your game to be is the sweet spot where players consume content at roughly the same rate as developers release it, with a 'catch-up' mechanism for newer players.

If lots of players are complaining that they have nothing to do, it's a sign that your current content is being consumed too quickly, and you need to do something to either increase your content output (which costs money) or slow down players' progress.

I agree with @Flirk2. Making the progression too slow would push some players into totally avoid that progression branch as if that content didn't exist.
It is not really "I have everything and I'm bored", it is more of "I have everything I wanted/interested and I'm bored".

I have friends that are only like MR 6-12, and already claiming that they experienced what they wanted and are bored.
As for me, I have most of what I wanted and bored, because friends not logging in, quitted or in different time-zone(friends that I met and played with during my 12hours per day and sleeping only a couple hours).

I avoided playing Kuva and getting Riven mods, didn't play Raid and Conclave at all.
I trying to stop being OCD and avoid scanning because I am very pissed off at the broken Codex and realizing it is meaningless and not being rewarded.
I didn't play Sortie unless my friends invite me to join them, since it took ~30-45mins and usually disappointed with the reward.
I stopped playing and searching for Syndicate medallions, ever since I lost my can opener(Telos Boltace).

Now, I usually only play a few alerts when I see one, login and play 1 or 2 20mins survival and log off.

As for player retention, 2 major factors:

• enjoyable skinner-box
• friends to play with, help out or compete with

Without friends, the game becomes a meaningless grindy single-player game, with no one to play with, compete with, interact with, no one to show off your fashion frames and no points in grinding and playing.

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, ScribbleClash said:

About the topic, even though this discussion seems to be futile: As long as equivalents are available, locking things behind long term targets isn't too harmful. Even considering the Hema as not a big problem, means we got to make it clear that this has to be the exception and that DE should not go down the road of exclusivity (e.g. Ignis Wraith BP), as this may drive out more players, rather than make it more enticing to be active.

Locking things behind long term targets can actually be harmful, especially if the reward is not much and not worth the effort and time investment.

How many players are willing to play/grind invasion missions to help out in the Construction Progress to unlock the "Boss" event, with possibility of mediocre rewards. 

On 06/04/2017 at 5:08 AM, [DE]Drew said:

Invasion Changes & Fixes

• Accelerated the Grineer/Corpus Invasion schedule. Downtime between attacks is now 12-24 hours instead of 24-48. 
• Increased the amount of Construction Progress earned when an invading faction raids an opponent’s node.

Therefore, it is best to set the Hema resource cost to be at least on par with the Javlok and Ferrox research. In fact, it should be lower due to the scarcity of Mutagen Samples.
The Mutagen Sample drop chance is lower than Detonite Ampule and Fieldron Sample, although they have the same rarity in their respective planets.

[Gamma745]

-snip-

Edited April 11, 2017 by Gamma745
Never mind, didn't read that carefully

[(PSN)Silverback73]

21 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Well, I didn't know about that. Maybe some testing is needed. The more you knew...

 

By this, you mean put a new research for an existing skin in the appropriate labs? For example, the forest camo skin in the Tenno lab.

And I assume by Clan tech skin you mean an entirely new skin for the correlated items?

All for this.  Creates demand.  Creates distinction.  Non-statistical.

[Aoden]

There's a fairly simple explanation as to why DE has taken a no change stance on the Hema research.

It makes money.

If people want the Hema badly enough, they'll seek out clans that have it unlocked, or use platinum to purchase it directly.

They may do something if there's enough feedback, though at this point it looks like they're content with how things are. Currently, claiming they want to respect the effort of others is slightly insulting, considering they've never given it that much thought before this.

[Ditto132]

On 14/04/2017 at 9:06 AM, Aoden said:

They may do something if there's enough feedback, though at this point it looks like they're content with how things are.

I believe that there is enough feedback, at least more than Limbo or Octavia threads.
There are 2 mega thread regarding this issue:
The previously locked 178 pages:

and currently this 95 pages.

To people that feel that it is bashing the dev. No, it isn't, we just want the issue to be resolved in a reasonable manner.
DE is awesome but mistakes are almost unavoidable.
I understand that time is needed to solve this issue, but most importantly, it should be resolved nevertheless.
Not to mention that there are quite a number of viable proposed suggestions.

On 14/04/2017 at 9:06 AM, Aoden said:

Currently, claiming they want to respect the effort of others is slightly insulting, considering they've never given it that much thought before this.

Personally, I feel that basing resource cost based on long time veteran player stockpile does not respect those effort.
Time and effort are spent on farming those resources, some farmed in preparation for new contents.

[Ditto132]

On 11/04/2017 at 10:43 AM, Gamma745 said:

By this, you mean put a new research for an existing skin in the appropriate labs? For example, the forest camo skin in the Tenno lab.

After pondering a few days, some things to consider:

• Does it contribute to clan affinity?
• Skin can be purchased with plat from market or exclusive to research?

Since I am not really a fan of comestics, only like a few comestics, rest of the comestics are not really my style.
Players who enjoy/purchased lot of comestics/skins would probably contribute more and better ideas than me.