HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Liminal]

1 minute ago, zzzNitro said:

Mentioning how redundant this hole thread is has also been said before, every 7-8 pages.

And yet you are not addressing any of the points made.

Loot abilities and boosters should not be taken into account when setting requirements.
With that in mind: 1000 samples are not really doable without hardcore repetitive farming, which DE claim they don't want ("no loot caves").
Ghost clans cannot be downgraded.
The cost is balanced towards 100% full and active clans, which is not the norm at all.
... and many others.

[Helljack84]

19 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

Mentioning how redundant this hole thread is has also been said before, every 7-8 pages.

Yep, you get one special snowflake every 10 pages.

Always with an elitist attitude, always with the exact same words and they can never be bothered to read any of the prior pages or bring forth anything of value.

 

[Justice_Ember]

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

Loot abilities and boosters should not be taken into account when setting requirements.

33 every 2 days means 99 each week, so around 10 weeks for a clan with 50% casual player base, I see nothing wrong with that. Do you want it faster, go hardcore, do you want to stay casual get used to casual timetables.

5 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

With that in mind: 1000 samples are not really doable without hardcore repetitive farming, which DE claim they don't want ("no loot caves").

Thing is, they are doable, just not in 5 minutes after the update.

6 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Ghost clans cannot be downgraded.

Why would they be? If you want smaller clans why not go all the way and ask for no clans at all? And while at that no research cost, hell, let's ask for everything out of the cryopod.

7 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

The cost is balanced towards 100% full and active clans, which is not the norm at all.

And the problem is? that means that less than 30% active should downgrade but over that is still doable with a longer timetable. 

10 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

... and many others.

No, not many more, actually nothing else, this whole thread could have ended when someone said "hey, the logic of a larger clan is to reduce cost so why not have a table that reduces cost for the higher tiers by about 15% at top capacity" but no, people insist on trying to convince others of how terrible DE is and how money makes everything dirty.

[Volinus7]

If there's a button called "Donation" that you can pour plats into it but get nothing in return, I wonder how many people will push it to "support" DE as it has no Skinner's box elements to condition their volition.

[Gamma745]

5 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

33 every 2 days means 99 each week, so around 10 weeks for a clan with 50% casual player base, I see nothing wrong with that. Do you want it faster, go hardcore, do you want to stay casual get used to casual timetables.

That is still dedicated farming, since you have to play Endless Derelict at least once everyday to make it count. Casual players have a lot of other things to worry about when they actually play: Fissures, Kuva Siphons, Syndicate missions, just goofing off. They won't dedicate something just for Mutagen Samples. Some people may only play 1-2 times a week, those times not necessarily in the Derelicts.

So, the calculation could go like this: Each Derelict run net around 20 Samples for a 40-min run, but not everyone can do that. So, 20-min run, which net 10 samples.

50% casual player base, which means each player need 1000 Samples

Derelicts are only gone to maybe once a month, so to get the player required quota, that could mean 100 months.

If at once a week: 100 weeks = 25 months.

That is the Casual timetable you're talking about.

 

5 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Why would they be? If you want smaller clans why not go all the way and ask for no clans at all? And while at that no research cost, hell, let's ask for everything out of the cryopod.

No, Everything on this game does require some effort. But the major difference is that everything else can be farmed semi-passively. The Rare resources may require a little hunting. Then why does this require going to a loot cave with a loot frame with loot boosters to make any reasonable progress?

[BLI7Z]

What I can say... is that as Ivara farming made me hate and get saturated of Spy missions (still don't have that damned BP), the farm for Hema research is going to make me revisit ODS more than I can hope to enjoy... 

I play Warframe to enjoy it, and it also feels like some kind of training for the mind... but when it is more like a job than a training, that's when I log out, I hate it to feel like a job. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 hour ago, BLI7Z said:

but when it is more like a job than a training, that's when I log out, I hate it to feel like a job. 

Indeed.

"Oh my, that was one long annoying work shift. Can't wait to get through this traffic jam to get home and work some more on my unpaid online job!"

Yeah, not gonna happen.

I mean, the moment "fun" online activity starts involving terms like man-hours and such  unironically, one should realize that something is really rotten here. 

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, BLI7Z said:

What I can say... is that as Ivara farming made me hate and get saturated of Spy missions (still don't have that damned BP), the farm for Hema research is going to make me revisit ODS more than I can hope to enjoy... 

I play Warframe to enjoy it, and it also feels like some kind of training for the mind... but when it is more like a job than a training, that's when I log out, I hate it to feel like a job. 

My sympathies for your luck. I enjoyed Spy missions, and managed to get Ivara in about a month. Still, I understand that not many people enjoy it or have similar luck, so I won't say anything about it. I agree with your sentiments, though. Games are supposed to be for having fun, not a second chore.

[Ditto132]

11 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Not really, you can call it that and try to convince people of it, but it's not. Pay to Win means exactly that, by paying you get better stuff, that's not the case here.

Let start with some definitions for "P2W" or "Pay-to-Win".

Quote

Personal definition:

"Pay" refers to purchasing with special/premium currency, either obtained from any means such as buying with real money or through trading.

"Win" refers to some form of progression in the game, be it completing the game, "winning" a round/match/mission, and milestones such as achieving certain amount of resource/affinity/xp/level.

"Pay-to-Win" refers to "paying" so as to "win" by avoiding and/or reducing significant/crucial part of the game elements, which would results in having advantages.

Quote

In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Some critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" or "p2w" games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.

For example, Dota 2 only allows the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a "free-to-play player" will be on the same level as a player who has spent money on the game.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Criticism

Quote

when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months).

source: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=p2w

For Warframe, purchasing weapons with plat gives significant advantages.

• Give slot
• Give Orokin Catalyst
• Possible to bypass MR requirements(e.g. Prime Access)
• Removes the resource acquisition part of the game(i.e. grinding/farming which some people claimed is the meat/crucial of the game).
• Removes the time-gating/waiting factors for the acquisition(i.e. researching time, crafting time).

And from my perspective and using my personal definition.
Player avoided significant/crucial pat of the game elements by buying weapon with plat. (P2W)
Player avoided significant/crucial pat of the game elements by buying relics with plat. (P2W)
Player reduced significant/crucial pat of the game elements by using booster with plat. (P2W)

Personally, I am fine with P2W especially for PvE game, as long as the disadvantages of not "paying" are reasonable.
In this case, Hema research cost is not.

11 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Or you know, contributing to their clans...

Instead of that, it promoted more toxic behaviours such as kicking members deemed as liability, requiring plat entry fee to get into clan, and scams.
The good? Clans that help give out Hema to players for free...

11 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Didn't know Rivens were in market... Also, while meta is hard to diversify there's already more players using weapons because of god rivens.

To be honest, Rivens are targetted at veterans. Rivens contain multiple layers of RNG, and requires lot of time and effort, or plat to obtain the so-called "god" Rivens.
And since Rivens currently could only be obtained from Sortie, there are limited supply and the demands are pretty high, it promote plat circulation and trading, and entice players to purchase more plat which is a good thing for DE. The bad is that Rivens doesn't really fix the root of the issue that lesser used weapons have.

11 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

You realize that a Solo Clan is an Oximoron, right?

I think you meant "Oxymoron"?
I have been called and I have also claimed to be "one-man army" numerous times.
Most of the times in multiple games, I usually carry my friends that happened to have the time to hop in and play games with me.
Nothing wrong with being a solo clan or one-man army like Marcus Fenix slaughtering horde of Locust, just like what Warframe should be.

9 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

Yep, you get one special snowflake every 10 pages.

Always with an elitist attitude, always with the exact same words and they can never be bothered to read any of the prior pages or bring forth anything of value.

I appreciate people who can be bothered to read from the start of the thread and also to try to understand the situation better.

I believe that most people here care a great deal about Warframe, and wanted it to be better and not go in the wrong direction.
It might seems that people who are complaining and wanting the Hema research issue to be fixed, hates DE.
But I am sure that these people have been supportive of DE since a long time and also most likely spent money on Warframe.

People who doesn't really care about Warframe or DE, wouldn't even be bothered with all these discussion in the forum(reading and posting).
They would more likely to just want to avoid the problem and get it done and over with. By it bypassing with plat, ignoring the issue or just quit the game and move on.
They just don't feel attached to Warframe or DE.

"There's no hate without love"...

[-BKB-SamuarJoe]

i hate to see people nagging about hema cost but it is actually easy to achieve, please DE increase it more, 5,000 to 20,000 MutagenSample, make a 'server crash' said all the data regarding current goal hema is resetted :D

[Justice_Ember]

9 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Casual players have a lot of other things to worry about when they actually play: Fissures, Kuva Siphons, Syndicate missions, just goofing off. They won't dedicate something just for Mutagen Samples. Some people may only play 1-2 times a week, those times not necessarily in the Derelicts.

please stop embarrassing yourself.

9 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

does this require going to a loot cave with a loot frame with loot boosters to make any reasonable progress?

No boosters required, just time and a little bit of direction

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

And from my perspective and using my personal definition.

You could've just said you consider it p2w and saved us both the textwall.

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Instead of that, it promoted more toxic behaviours such as kicking members deemed as liability, requiring plat entry fee to get into clan, and scams.

Yeah, the end of the world indeed.

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

To be honest, Rivens are targetted at veterans. Rivens contain multiple layers of RNG, and requires lot of time and effort, or plat to obtain the so-called "god" Rivens.
And since Rivens currently could only be obtained from Sortie, there are limited supply and the demands are pretty high, it promote plat circulation and trading, and entice players to purchase more plat which is a good thing for DE. The bad is that Rivens doesn't really fix the root of the issue that lesser used weapons have.

"Entice" gotta love that word, Rivens made 4 of my friends use their pantheras again. That doesn't serve for statistics but at least for what I see I see a minor success

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

I think you meant "Oxymoron"?
I have been called and I have also claimed to be "one-man army" numerous times.
Most of the times in multiple games, I usually carry my friends that happened to have the time to hop in and play games with me.
Nothing wrong with being a solo clan or one-man army like Marcus Fenix slaughtering horde of Locust, just like what Warframe should be.

Yes, spelling in english changes sorry about that. As for the whole "one-man army" thing, isn't the whole concept supossed to mean you do as much as X number of soldiers? If that's the case why are you struggling with something that can be easily farmed by 10 people? Or medium difficulty for 5 people? And please choose a stand, are you the one-man army that can do the research as easy as 10 clanmates or the victim solo clan that can't do it by himself but doesn't want to play with others?

[Liminal]

17 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

33 every 2 days means 99 each week, so around 10 weeks for a clan with 50% casual player base, I see nothing wrong with that. Do you want it faster, go hardcore, do you want to stay casual get used to casual timetables.
With every one of those people playing every single day, farming 33 samples every single time they log in for over 2 months. That's not really respectful to the player's time. And that is farming.

Thing is, they are doable, just not in 5 minutes after the update.
After 4 years I had 1700 samples. So no, unless you actively farm them, and with loot abilities, preferrably in a full party with a farming composition, it'll take ages to get it if you ever do. What if every item in the game followed suit? How many do you think you could get before they piled up into an unsurmoutable mountain?

Why would they be? If you want smaller clans why not go all the way and ask for no clans at all? And while at that no research cost, hell, let's ask for everything out of the cryopod.
Holy strawman, Batman! That is totally what I said...

And the problem is? that means that less than 30% active should downgrade but over that is still doable with a longer timetable.
And why should they? Just because of one item? How does that benefit the game over having a close knit group of players? When did it become dogma that clans should be at least X% full? Then why do we even have tiers?

No, not many more, actually nothing else, this whole thread could have ended when someone said "hey, the logic of a larger clan is to reduce cost so why not have a table that reduces cost for the higher tiers by about 15% at top capacity" but no, people insist on trying to convince others of how terrible DE is and how money makes everything dirty.
Yeah, many more. And DE is not terrible nor evil, and most people in this thread are not just hating on DE, just voicing their (our) displeasure in this specific instance. Still, nobody can deny how incoherent their excuses are for this.

I'll quote myself from another thread just to bring up most of the stuff I find is wrong with the Hema cost.

On 2/24/2017 at 2:35 PM, The_Doc said:

 

• 500+ MS cannot be gathered by "just playing".
• MS can only be acquired in significant numbers in one tileset, with one enemy faction.
• MS can only be acquired in significant numbers in two mission types.
• DE said they didn't want people playing the same node over and over, yet that is exactly what they make us do here.
• Most clans are not 100% full.
• Most clans are not 100% active.
• Hema costs ~100x more MS than every other item.
• Hema costs ~10x more MS than every other item combined.
• If you disagree with something you shouldn't give them money for it (otherwise you're a hypocrite and you are encouraging them to pull stuff like that again).
• Resource costs shouldn't be balanced around boosters.
• Resource costs shouldn't be balanced around meta farming frames (DE said they never would be but alas).
• Hema could very well end up being a requirement for future research.
• The logic of "let's honor those who already farmed it" is incoherent with every significant change and nerf they've done in the past (and some they did after, like the riven cap).
• Shutting up now would mean everyone could just forget about it, potentially clearing the way for more BS like this in the future.

Apparently the response to all this is "that's the way it is, downgrade and farm already", which doesn't really contribute to the discussion.

[Justice_Ember]

21 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

With every one of those people playing every single day, farming 33 samples every single time they log in for over 2 months. That's not really respectful to the player's time. And that is farming.

No, playing every 3 days a week for less than an hour each day, THAT takes two months. 

23 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

After 4 years I had 1700 samples. So no, unless you actively farm them, and with loot abilities, preferrably in a full party with a farming composition, it'll take ages to get it if you ever do. What if every item in the game followed suit? How many do you think you could get before they piled up into an unsurmoutable mountain?

Cool, after 3 years I had about 70 I put initially on the Hema, then went farming for about two weeks  3-4 days each week about farming about 1 hour, that got me a little over 600 that I ended up contributing. Wasn't hard, just tedious, but I wanted the Hema faster so I did it.

25 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Holy strawman, Batman! That is totally what I said...

Right, no, you said downgrade a ghost clan, how many people you recon would that tier fit? 3 following the trend? 2 in case of alt account? 1 for obvious reasons? How does that not defeat the purpose of a clan?

28 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

When did it become dogma that clans should be at least X% full? Then why do we even have tiers?

Right... Go make a moon clan by yourself then because THAT'S completely logical.

29 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

and most people in this thread are not just hating on DE

How do you call someone actively saying DE entices plat purchases, forces plat usage and punishes non paying players? constructive criticism?

32 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

I'll quote myself from another thread just to bring up most of the stuff I find is wrong with the Hema cost.

Sure go ahead. but you can syntethize everything into "it's too hard for me, make it easier, wah" and yes, I did go there.

[Gamma745]

3 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

please stop embarrassing yourself.

Oh, how am I embarrassing myself? Care to point out what's wrong with my points?

[Volinus7]

Oh please, don't use the word "punish" in a skinnerean system. It's called "Negative Reinforcement" :)

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

Sure go ahead. but you can syntethize everything into "it's too hard for me, make it easier, wah" and yes, I did go there.

LOL. "Hard" he says.

Like maybe YOU should stop embarassing yourself? Lack of basic reading comprehension and meaning of words is not something to show off in public.
No really.

There's absolutely nothing "hard" about farming the samples. As there's nothing hard about just sitting at your keyboard pressing same 3 buttons for hours and hours.
Question is. What's the point? It's not work I get paid for. It's not fun activity either. It's... basically a Cookie Clicker time waster. With 3D graphics I guess, and you don't get more cookies the longer you play or fun events like Grandma Apocalypse.
What you DO get, however, is higher electric bills, sense of your life being wasted for no purpose as well as one of slowly dying on the inside. If you enjoy any of these 3 things... well, good for you. I guess...

[Flirk2]

I'm amazed at the quality of discussion we are getting from Hema advocates.

Same points again and again.

With insults and ''la-la-la, I can't hear you'' kind of arguments...

Take this for example.

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

No, playing every 3 days a week for less than an hour each day, THAT takes two months. 

Sure, let's take an average player and make him:

1) get at least 4 more people (active every day, might I add, which is not average in itself) to join his solo ghost clan to get that mythical 50% participation.

And let's forget that 8-9% top scoring clans couldn't get to half of ''victory tier'' score in the recent event. The goals for which were set exactly for 50% participation!

2) play for two months nothing but ODD in no other way but the most boring ''farming squad'' tentacle meditation.

Let's forget the nerfs that meta-farming squads got in the past and all the ''we want you to play the game, not farm'' talk. All hail Hydroid. Long live the Nekros.

3) ignore the actual topic of the discussion. Which is not the way of getting 5k mutagen samples, but the total insanity of setting prices based on resource stockpiles of players with 2000+ hours in the game.

I get it. When the game was new, and there were no players with 2000+ hours, prices had to be set in a reasonable manner. But why change that now? Are there really that many players who have 2000+ hours?

At this point there just is nothing to add, really.

I didn't see a single reasonable explanation as to why do we need to put about 100 times more effort into things than in the past. All that talk about boosters, farming squads and farming spots... did it ever occur to those people that the same actions could be taken for the old prices? That when comparing time spent on getting research materials for different items you need to take the same methods? That you still need to put almost 100 times more effort to get Hema than you needed for Synapse?

It just feels like a waste of time.

[Volinus7]

32 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

LOL. "Hard" he says.

Like maybe YOU should stop embarassing yourself? Lack of basic reading comprehension and meaning of words is not something to show off in public.
No really.

There's absolutely nothing "hard" about farming the samples. As there's nothing hard about just sitting at your keyboard pressing same 3 buttons for hours and hours.
Question is. What's the point? It's not work I get paid for. It's not fun activity either. It's... basically a Cookie Clicker time waster. With 3D graphics I guess, and you don't get more cookies the longer you play or fun events like Grandma Apocalypse.
What you DO get, however, is higher electric bills, sense of your life being wasted for no purpose as well as one of slowly dying on the inside. If you enjoy any of these 3 things... well, good for you. I guess...

Are there any microtransactions in Cookie Clicker that let you bypass the grinding? No?

See? Warframe is far more advanced lol.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Volinus7

[BLI7Z]

20 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

It just feels like a waste of time.

THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT!

[Justice_Ember]

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Like maybe YOU should stop embarassing yourself? Lack of basic reading comprehension and meaning of words is not something to show off in public.

How clever of you, here have a medal.

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

There's absolutely nothing "hard" about farming the samples. As there's nothing hard about just sitting at your keyboard pressing same 3 buttons for hours and hours.

So the issue becomes the time spent in it? A point I already addressed. 

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

What you DO get, however, is higher electric bills, sense of your life being wasted for no purpose as well as one of slowly dying on the inside. If you enjoy any of these 3 things... well, good for you. I guess...

Maybe you should try a game that's more rewarding then, it feels like you are getting very little from this one.

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

Same points again and again.

Maybe it has to do with how both sides keep exposing the same bs arguments over and over? I already said it, about 40 pages back someone proposed a cost reduction for tier that goes to 15% less resources need in a top tier clan. But apparently that's not enough. Hence the repetitive discussion.

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

I didn't see a single reasonable explanation as to why do we need to put about 100 times more effort into things than in the past.

Alright then I guess I'm way worse at english than I originally thought.

[Justice_Ember]

2 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Oh, how am I embarrassing myself? Care to point out what's wrong with my points?

You are both giving Hema the utmost importance as something that forces you to play a certain way and taking the importance away from it by making goofing off a bigger deal for casual players. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

How clever of you, here have a medal.

Yay. Free medals.

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

So the issue becomes the time spent in it? A point I already addressed. 

Adressed how again? Nekros with no boosters approx gives 1 sample per minute in Derelict. 60 per man-hour per person in the mission. Now let's factor in loading times, going in and out of the mission, etc. With all the average negative factors, we are looking at about 50 per man-hour.
This gives us 10 man-hours per person to score 500 needed for 100% active and donating clan (nice Utopia). Or 100 man-hours for a poor sod in a solo-clan.

So 10-man hours is an alright number to you? Well, if you ain't got no better thing to do in your evenings, be my guest. Just don't expect everyone else to follow suit. Just FYI, most SP games can be beaten in 15 hours. I wouldn't even touch what you can do IRL in 10 hours of free time.

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

Maybe you should try a game that's more rewarding then, it feels like you are getting very little from this one.

Way ahead of you. Having a blast playing Nier:Automata and Overwatch. And modding stuff like Starbound. It's pretty fun and a good exercise for my mind with all the coding and making fancy graphics.
Oh, and my empire in Stellaris is just amazing. Well, stats-wise. Not much to look at sadly. Ahem. Anyway.
So of course, how dare I, some lazy full-time engineering working pleb ask for Warframe to be more reasonable, rewarding and fun to play. It should be totally balanced around people who enjoy doing menial monotonous tasks for hours. That will keep the game healthy and attractive.
Yeah. No.

2 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Maybe it has to do with how both sides keep exposing the same bs arguments over and over? I already said it, about 40 pages back someone proposed a cost reduction for tier that goes to 15% less resources need in a top tier clan. But apparently that's not enough. Hence the repetitive discussion.

Sorry, I am sad to inform you that numbers are not "BS arguments". Numbers are numbers. 15% off of 5k is still 8.5 man-hours in the most optimistic scenario possible.
Your elitist attitude on the other hand falls pretty well within the "BS" category.

2 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Alright then I guess I'm way worse at english than I originally thought.

Nah, just your logic patterns.

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

You are both giving Hema the utmost importance as something that forces you to play a certain way and taking the importance away from it by making goofing off a bigger deal for casual players. 

Just a heads up, in case you are oblivious to one simple fact.
May I remind you that our beloved Samples do NOT drop in normal gameplay be it alert nodes, sorties and whatnot. You either grind for them specifically or you get a fat glorious nothing. Seeing a problem yet? Or should I chew it out some more?

[Volinus7]

Kaioken x100!!!

[Justice_Ember]

@EvilChaosKnight sorry for not quoting I'm on mobile right now.

As you detailed 10 man hours sounds awful, but nobody is saying to get it right away, and that's where I keep going. 

I've funded two clans over 3 years and only colors and research times have kept me working towards a somewhat common goal with clan mates other than helping each other out. There's so much stuff to do in Warframe that unless you are MR23 and hema is the last weapon you need it's hardly a necessity, it's not blocked as content you can get it it just takes longer than any other research. The problem becomes the mentality of immediate reward that many have grown accustomed to. Go check threads and post made by moon and mountain warlords, they all say that over the years a handful of veterans have covered the costs by themselves so when they ask a clannie to donate they are reluctant to.

That's why I keep failing to see the logic behind complaining about this, it's not mandatory to have every new thing right away. It's fine to keep a secondary or tertiary goal in the background while you do literally all the other stuff to do in game.

[Almagnus1]

The Herma research costs need a nerf.

There's other MMOs that have their long grinds nerfed (like FFXIV's relic/anima weapon) after swaths of the population did it the hard way - so nerfing the research costs without cost of compensation isn't without precedence.

Alternative, DE can give the clans that have finished this a cosmetic, or something else that gives the clan bragging rights, but 5k mutagen samples on the item is just absurd.