How the Grineer Helminth Charger makes sense lore wise.

[NeithanDiniem]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

right, I know that description of the infestation. That simply says it effects both organic and inorganic, changing them both. It does not say it transforms organic matter into inorganic armor that wasn't present. It says directly "holds characteristics of it previous forms" hence why chargers, formed from grineer still have grineer armor. No where in that description does it lead me to believe it would create grineer armor on a mutated non grineer.

Considering the incubation chamber provides all needed materials for the development of whatever is within it, it very well would provide any organic or inorganic (metals are in fact a part of your organic structure) materials needed by the growing form. If the form requires Ferrite, it is perfectly capable of providing it.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

32 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

the grineer armor, is no longer armor at that point. it becomes part of the biology of the infested, similar to corpus helmets present on leapers and crawlers. it's now part of the template. this is proven by identical Ancient healers spawning in rapid order after the introduction of a single lorist. one person was incorporated into the infestation, and became many.

I'm familiar with that part of the lore as well, it doesn't state that they are identical. My interpretation based of of the infested description still stands, that inorganic matter it turns pseudo organic and is incorporated in to the infested, but retains characteristics of its previous form. Infestation with grineer armor were grineer and the armor is now part of them. It didn't grow grineer armor looking stuff from other material. The reason we don't see chargers without armor, or with corpus armor, is game mechanics, optimization and keeping the amount of models low. By the lore I think its very realistic to think that the infestation could create a charger from any thing it could transform into that fairly easily, but if it wasn't grineer, it wouldn't have grineer armor looking pseudo organic material, it would have parts matching the inorganic material it absorbed to make that particular unit.

Edited January 5, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius
spelling

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

18 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Considering the incubation chamber provides all needed materials for the development of whatever is within it, it very well would provide any organic or inorganic (metals are in fact a part of your organic structure) materials needed by the growing form. If the form requires Ferrite, it is perfectly capable of providing it.

again, my point is that it wouldn't form those structures, those aren't technically part of the infested units template in my opinion. They are left from incorporating those things and not fully transforming them because inorganic matter retains characteristics of its previous form. I'm not doubting the foundry can feed it ferrite, I'm doubting that the ferrite is required.

[TheChaotic1]

On 1/3/2017 at 8:48 PM, ObviousLee said:

Hi there! Resident Lore-Hound Lee reporting to inform you all of why the Helminth Charger being a Grineer is A-OK, based on the lore.

Very well worded! I was trying to convince others of the very same thing, its why I even started posting tbh. Just tired of the salt.

 

Quote

Where did it get the ferrite?

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None was removed from my inventory and also you are: (CHOOSE YOUR OWN BUZZWORD) A. Using "Mental Gymnastics" to justify B. A fanboy C. Secretly an infested and trying to corrupt us from within and without. D. Not funny why did you type all this.

Its a video game.

Edited January 5, 2017 by TheChaotic1

[METAL_BAWKSES]

So the infestation functions sort of like they Tyranid. Cool stuff.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

again, my point is that it wouldn't form those structures, those aren't technically part of the infested units template in my opinion. They are left from incorporating those things and not fully transforming them because inorganic matter retains characteristics of its previous form. I'm not doubting the foundry can feed it ferrite, I'm doubting that the ferrite is required.

And why would it not form those structures? It has those structures as a part of its biohybrid makeup, and those structures still perform their basic function of protection. Its no different at all from an exoskeleton. Lastly it is in fact a game and we are only explaining how it is possible that this does in fact still fit with the lore we have been provided. Nothing at all about it invalidates anything we know so far in lore. That is the entire point of the discussion. Hell for all we know the incubation chamber enforced the end form of the charger on the growing infested mass within it to get that specific form because that was the specific form encoded within the material in the cyst by Helminth.

Edited January 5, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Volinus7]

In short the infested is something higher than necromorph but lower than zerg.

imo it's still full of plot holes because game doesn't care about what should be spawned lorewise if you base your assumption on that it's not really legit.

[ObviousLee]

16 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

In short the infested is something higher than necromorph but lower than zerg.

imo it's still full of plot holes because game doesn't care about what should be spawned lorewise if you base your assumption on that it's not really legit.

actually, it does. boilers only spawn runners, chargers, and volatile leapers.. brood mothers only spawn maggots. thus the game does indeed care what is spawned. the rest of the "infestation" is spawned off camera as if it already existed there.

Edited January 5, 2017 by ObviousLee

[TheChaotic1]

Why do people hold the incubator to a higher standard then the boiler? You complain about the kubrow egg but discount the enemy that makes it the most clear. The boiler grows BOILS that gestate into a basic infested. Helminth had you grow a CYST that gestates into one of those same basic infested. Yes a kubrow egg got involved, but to make an omelette you have to absorb and repurpose the biomass of a doge/bat.

Edited January 5, 2017 by TheChaotic1

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Why do people hold the incubator to a higher standard then the boiler? You complain about the kubrow egg but discount the enemy that makes it the most clear. The boiler grows BOILS that gestate into a basic infested. Helminth had you grow a CYST that gestates into one of those same basic infested. Yes a kubrow egg got involved, but to make an omelette you have to absorb and repurpose the biomass of a doge/bat.

True, but those enemies are always level 10, so one could argue that those spawned enemies are in a way weak infested that lack the more precise growth of say an ancient or a mutalist moa. However your point still largely stands and is something I brought up before. Its a huge foundation as to why it is possible to grow say a charger from nothing more than infested tissue and surrounding materials.

[TheChaotic1]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

True, but those enemies are always level 10, so one could argue that those spawned enemies are in a way weak infested that lack the more precise growth of say an ancient or a mutalist moa. However your point still largely stands and is something I brought up before. Its a huge foundation as to why it is possible to grow say a charger from nothing more than infested tissue and surrounding materials.

Weak like a level 1 helminth charger? Eh? Eh?

[Volinus7]

18 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

actually, it does. boilers only spawn runners, chargers, and volatile leapers.. brood mothers only spawn maggots. thus the game does indeed care what is spawned. the rest of the "infestation" is spawned off camera as if it already existed there.

There's nothing said that Ancients are unlimited in numbers or they can multiply themselves thus you can see it anywhere in the system.

[NeithanDiniem]

8 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

There's nothing said that Ancients are unlimited in numbers or they can multiply themselves thus you can see it anywhere in the system.

Then explain how they appear on a Grineer asteroid base that has no preexisting infestation on it. If you are insinuating that the infested hitchhiked on a taxi and flew over or jumped out the airlock and floated over then I have some bad news for you.

Edited January 5, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:

And why would it not form those structures? It has those structures as a part of its biohybrid makeup, and those structures still perform their basic function of protection. Its no different at all from an exoskeleton. Lastly it is in fact a game and we are only explaining how it is possible that this does in fact still fit with the lore we have been provided. Nothing at all about it invalidates anything we know so far in lore. That is the entire point of the discussion.

I'm simply stating how I view things, not trying to claim anyone or anything is invalid. My point is that they form a unit from pretty much any available resource, they twist it and merge it into a form that suits them, they copy form and function using available materials. They dont replicate the base materials, of something that isn't there. If they did, the whole "retains characteristics of it previous form" wouldn't be in line with that. Those words specifically explain why infested from grineer still have grineer armor in the mass, to me it doesn't at all suggest that it would grow grineer style armor on an infected corpus or civilian human or anything that didn't have that armor.

Edited January 5, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[Volinus7]

24 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Then explain how they appear on a Grineer asteroid base that has no preexisting infestation on it. If you are insinuating that the infested hitchhiked on a taxi and flew over or jumped out the airlock and floated over then I have some bad news for you.

How then, source? Does it explain why there's limitless supply of Ancients everywhere? Because I don't think there's any sources other than infected lorists themselves.

I think I play enough plague inc. to know how diseases cross countries.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Volinus7

[UncaIroh]

Considering how many patches of infestation we run across on Grineer and Corpus missions, it's a pretty good bet that the entire solar system is in need of a thorough scrubbing to prevent outbreaks.

As for the hivemind thinking of keeping all the vestigial characteristics of the original infested hosts, it's rather inefficient to dedicate biomass on that and shows that the hive mind is either: A. actually infesting grineer and corpus by the thousands or B. inefficient at optimizing its templates.

Either way, I heard that DE is planning to update the Helminth Charger model?

[NeithanDiniem]

5 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

How then, source? 

I think I play enough plague inc. to know how diseases cross countries.

If you know how diseases spread, then apply that to Warframe. Infested typically spreads to locations via spores drifting through space attaching to ship hulls and getting on planet, inside the ship, or on station. This spore begins germinating and spreading before it blooms and the infested growths appear. In game it is described that these places thus have to go through decontamination processes to eradicate the infested growths before it becomes active, something difficult to do in the Grineer asteroid bases. If left be too long the infestation gets out of hand, spreading across the surfaces and breaking down equipment, as well as infecting anyone there. So how then are corpus, ancient, and grineer based infested units all appearing in places where 1 wouldn't be possible to exist and one or both of the others wouldn't naturally be in that location in its uninfested form?

And source? Corrupted Ancient synthesis entry. The female Orokin Lorist was killed 24 hours previous to the event in the entry, and yet multiple copies of her infested form were present on site. 24 hours, and multiple copies. Source.

"A mess of figures shambled forth. These were different, bigger and slower. I could feel my sister in there somehow, it was so strong. The Moas opened fire. I wanted to tell them to stop but how could I? I felt plasma beams burn the creatures and then I felt Remballa heal them. Why? Multiple connections now, I felt her many times over, it didn’t make sense, until it did; she was those things, all of them. They took our fire and kept coming. I felt her, no them, shudder as bullets ripped through flesh and then as flesh was made new again. They were Lorist Infested, my sister the healer, remade as monster and here to kill us."

[Volinus7]

23 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

If you know how diseases spread, then apply that to Warframe. Infested typically spreads to locations via spores drifting through space attaching to ship hulls and getting on planet, inside the ship, or on station. This spore begins germinating and spreading before it blooms and the infested growths appear. In game it is described that these places thus have to go through decontamination processes to eradicate the infested growths before it becomes active, something difficult to do in the Grineer asteroid bases. If left be too long the infestation gets out of hand, spreading across the surfaces and breaking down equipment, as well as infecting anyone there. So how then are corpus, ancient, and grineer based infested units all appearing in places where 1 wouldn't be possible to exist and one or both of the others wouldn't naturally be in that location in its uninfested form?

And source? Corrupted Ancient synthesis entry. The female Orokin Lorist was killed 24 hours previous to the event in the entry, and yet multiple copies of her infested form were present on site. 24 hours, and multiple copies. Source.

"A mess of figures shambled forth. These were different, bigger and slower. I could feel my sister in there somehow, it was so strong. The Moas opened fire. I wanted to tell them to stop but how could I? I felt plasma beams burn the creatures and then I felt Remballa heal them. Why? Multiple connections now, I felt her many times over, it didn’t make sense, until it did; she was those things, all of them. They took our fire and kept coming. I felt her, no them, shudder as bullets ripped through flesh and then as flesh was made new again. They were Lorist Infested, my sister the healer, remade as monster and here to kill us."

The problem is there's nothing said that there are only 2 lorists IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. Even they can multiply themselves through budding there's no way to confirm "genetic copy being sent to another location". 

And no I don't think that ancients spawned everywhere make sense.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Volinus7

[ObviousLee]

45 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

How then, source? Does it explain why there's limitless supply of Ancients everywhere? Because I don't think there's any sources other than infected lorists themselves.

I think I play enough plague inc. to know how diseases cross countries.

how? it's already been explained as for how, but in the interest of making sure i'll elaborate. every tileset barring the void has the potential to become infested due to there being spores visible on each tileset. meaning that the infestation spreads via two methods. Method one would be passive, spore form. as spores spread they adhere to surfaces and begin self replication. once a large enough amount of spores have accumulate and again disperse locally. this is how sections of areas are covered in the infested spores. At this point any organic entity(grineer or corpus) would need only come in contact with said spores to begin the spread of active infested units. with enough time and zero living creatures to spread the infestation, there would still be a great amount of infested mass, but since no outside stimuli is occurring the infested will not respond as there is no need to, similar to how there was never a need for lephantis to damage the structure above itself until you interacted with it by going to that particular derelict.

Method two is active, in that the infested units themselves are actually running amok and spreading the infestation to living targets via physical means(biting, clawing)  as seen by the corrupted ancient synthesis entry. The lora drive using orokin was bitten on the leg and the infestation claimed it in mere seconds. So, since there is outside stimuli for the infestation to react to, we see infested units all over the place attacking anything with a hitbox. These locations initially do not posses ancients, brood mothers and the like. Those units are created on site as the situation requires, dictated by the infestation. Also remember that as far as it's been declared, the point of origin for the ancients was aboard the derelict, not anywhere else. The entry depicts the ancients as something new and not encountered before, yet they were created in less than a 24 hour period. This gives indication of a rapid gestation period as well as the ability to replicate any new information incorporated(provided the information is beneficial enough to warrant use and retention) on a massive scale.

Edited January 5, 2017 by ObviousLee

[NeithanDiniem]

7 minutes ago, TonyWong said:

Considering how many patches of infestation we run across on Grineer and Corpus missions, it's a pretty good bet that the entire solar system is in need of a thorough scrubbing to prevent outbreaks.

As for the hivemind thinking of keeping all the vestigial characteristics of the original infested hosts, it's rather inefficient to dedicate biomass on that and shows that the hive mind is either: A. actually infesting grineer and corpus by the thousands or B. inefficient at optimizing its templates.

Either way, I heard that DE is planning to update the Helminth Charger model?

Probably best set as inefficient design planning, or those vestigial characteristics are given a purpose and that form how has a reason to be formed. As for the charger, DESteve mentioned touching it up, nothing really specific yet.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

The problem is there's nothing said that there are only 2 lorists. Even they can multiply themselves through budding there's no way to confirm "genetic copy being sent to another location". 

the entry explicitly states that the lorist was there on a relief mission and had lost her sister the previous day to the infestation. the entire reason the lorist and dax returned was because the lorist had hope to save her sister, and felt the presence of her sister. it was only after she encountered the ancients for the very first time that she was able to understand that her sister had been overtaken and incorporated within the infestation. the amount of lorists involved in this specific entry which depicts how the infestation functions(as well as trinity prime teaser) is exactly, precisely, undeniably two in number.

Lorists cannot replicate themselves. They were creations of the Orokin for the specific purpose of healing, either in combat or for illness or as this one was, relief missions.

[NeithanDiniem]

8 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

The problem is there's nothing said that there are only 2 lorists. Even they can multiply themselves through budding there's no way to confirm "genetic copy being sent to another location". 

And no I don't think that ancients spawned everywhere make sense.

Did you not read the source? Specifically the part I put in bold that directly tells you that she felt her sister's presence multiple times. Let me post it again...

22 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

"A mess of figures shambled forth. These were different, bigger and slower. I could feel my sister in there somehow, it was so strong. The Moas opened fire. I wanted to tell them to stop but how could I? I felt plasma beams burn the creatures and then I felt Remballa heal them. Why? Multiple connections now, I felt her many times over, it didn’t make sense, until it did; she was those things, all of them. They took our fire and kept coming. I felt her, no them, shudder as bullets ripped through flesh and then as flesh was made new again. They were Lorist Infested, my sister the healer, remade as monster and here to kill us."

MULTIPLE connections now.

I felt her MULTIPLE TIMES OVER.

She was those things, ALL OF THEM.

...

Now take into consideration everything I stated before regarding how the infestation grows and spreads.

Edited January 5, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

27 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

If you know how diseases spread, then apply that to Warframe. Infested typically spreads to locations via spores drifting through space attaching to ship hulls and getting on planet, inside the ship, or on station. This spore begins germinating and spreading before it blooms and the infested growths appear. In game it is described that these places thus have to go through decontamination processes to eradicate the infested growths before it becomes active, something difficult to do in the Grineer asteroid bases. If left be too long the infestation gets out of hand, spreading across the surfaces and breaking down equipment, as well as infecting anyone there. So how then are corpus, ancient, and grineer based infested units all appearing in places where 1 wouldn't be possible to exist and one or both of the others wouldn't naturally be in that location in its uninfested form?

And source? Corrupted Ancient synthesis entry. The female Orokin Lorist was killed 24 hours previous to the event in the entry, and yet multiple copies of her infested form were present on site. 24 hours, and multiple copies. Source.

"A mess of figures shambled forth. These were different, bigger and slower. I could feel my sister in there somehow, it was so strong. The Moas opened fire. I wanted to tell them to stop but how could I? I felt plasma beams burn the creatures and then I felt Remballa heal them. Why? Multiple connections now, I felt her many times over, it didn’t make sense, until it did; she was those things, all of them. They took our fire and kept coming. I felt her, no them, shudder as bullets ripped through flesh and then as flesh was made new again. They were Lorist Infested, my sister the healer, remade as monster and here to kill us."

a) the infested corpus n orokin units appearing on grineer outposts, I see as a result of being a videogame and not having a bunch of models for each unit but with different armor integrated. In much the same way, it would be resource heavy to code infested missions to only spawn infested from that faction and a balancing issue to fight only a portion of units but still have a rounded force. No where in the lore does it suggest that these units all have them same pieces integrated in the same places, making perfectly identical units. The lore does however lead me to believe that it warps any material it can into a form, and because it can use such a wide variety of materials, it doesn't need specific ones. It works with what its got. It doesn't create grineer looking armor for the sake of matching the prototype. The grineer armor is irrelevant to the function of a charger and wouldn't be formed for no reason out of a corpus crewman when this crewman has bits of armor it can use to fit the same function

b) the lorist becoming many ancients is not stated to be perfectly identical ancients, they were all the same functionally, but if say lorist ancient the original had little gold bits of lorist armor, the others dont necessarily have the same. They have traces of features from whatever was used to make them. The reason we see identical ones in game is for the sake of not making a hundred models where one has gotten them by, its resource optimization because its a video game.

c) is what I'm saying solid fact? No. It is opinion, but by what lore we have to go on it is just as valid as your opinion. The only thing supporting your idea over mine, is easily explainable as game optimization

Edited January 5, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[NeithanDiniem]

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

a) the infested corpus n orokin units appearing on grineer outposts, I see as a result of being a videogame and not having a bunch of models for each unit but with different armor integrated. In much the same way, it would be resource heavy to code infested missions to only spawn infested from that faction and a balancing issue to fight only a portion of units but still have a rounded force. No where in the lore does it suggest that these units all have them same pieces integrated in the same places, making perfectly identical units. The lore does however lead me to believe that it warps any material it can into a form, and because it can use such a wide variety of materials, it doesn't need specific ones. It works with what its got. It doesn't create grineer looking armor for the sake of matching the prototype. The grineer armor is irrelevant to the function of a charger and wouldn't be formed for no reason out of a corpus crewman when this crewman has bits of armor it can use to fit the same function

Actually no, it would be incredibly easy to code since DE could have taken shortcuts and made the infested growths on units be cosmetics applied to the original units and solve most of the issue there. Modular design is in fact a thing they have used, recently even, and are fully capable of taking that route. It wouldn't be resource heavy in the slightest to code infested only units at all, its the same exact system they already use to limit spawns. And armor being irrelevant? Its armor, its a protective shell used to cover vital locations. It provides structure with which to support weight by acting as exoskeletal reinforcement. Ive stated this multiple times now, please either find a way to directly refute that properly or at least stop ignoring it outright. Also where are you getting that I stated that the infestation would have grown a corpus out of a grineer? Nowhere did I state that, or anything remote to that. Please stop the nonsense, its silly.

Edited January 5, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Volinus7]

17 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

a) the infested corpus n orokin units appearing on grineer outposts, I see as a result of being a videogame and not having a bunch of models for each unit but with different armor integrated. In much the same way, it would be resource heavy to code infested missions to only spawn infested from that faction and a balancing issue to fight only a portion of units but still have a rounded force. No where in the lore does it suggest that these units all have them same pieces integrated in the same places, making perfectly identical units. The lore does however lead me to believe that it warps any material it can into a form, and because it can use such a wide variety of materials, it doesn't need specific ones. It works with what its got. It doesn't create grineer looking armor for the sake of matching the prototype. The grineer armor is irrelevant to the function of a charger and wouldn't be formed for no reason out of a corpus crewman when this crewman has bits of armor it can use to fit the same function

Exactly. 

If there's a production plant that produces the exact same perfect copy of infested grineer with "exact same armor" I'm quite sure that other factions would be wiped out by their sheer number since it doesn't need host anymore.

And if hive mind can force an infected grineer to morph into an ancient that would be ridiculous.

Budding is a possibility but shared genetic information (+armor information) through psionic network? Leave that to zerg in starcraft.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Volinus7