Damage 3.0 and modding 3.0

[Phyrak]

Title.

Both seem to go hand in hand

We have had very little in changes to both that of modding and damage since the release of damage 2.0

A reduction in slots with warframe modding and a gain with the Exilus slots and modding hasn't changed with weapon damage bar some utility mods such as argon scope and body count to change how things play

Perhaps a midground between the two is that of dedicated slots and variations of current mods

Eg.

For warframe

Offensive slots: intensify etc

Defensive slots: vitality etc

Utility slots: rush

Power slots: continuity/streamline etc

Exilus: drift mods

Augment: augment mods

This would allow for mods to be made to be more interesting - be they reactive mods like that of rage, giving energy when wounded or perhaps (an idea for a new mod) power overflow, gain x% power based on max energy - giving the choice of when to use a power or save it for more damage

As for weapons - damage is always wanted over utility, thus dedicated mod slots for such utility mods would mean they would have more of a place rather than being neglected for outright damage save some cases.

As with warframes, new mods can be introduced to balance out such reductions and reward play style

Eg. Head hunter - (at max) +50% damage base, headshots dealing additional 400-700% damage (number depends on balancing)

Do you think we need a modding 3.0?

If serration is considered a long term goal by DE as a way of rewarding players, could dedicated slots be the solution to allow for choices of builds be free-er in the aspect of having a greater selection of mods to use?

Mod wise, this could create a greater and more interesting collection of mods to be introduced to the game, what do you think some of these could be?

Could you see the above example mods in game and being useful?

Perhaps a time for aura's to have a 2.0 too?

As such, this will also improve the new player experience with modding and remove the confusion of initially getting into modding frames and weapons

Thank you for reading,

-Phyrak

Edited January 8, 2017 by Phyrak
Additional information

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

We don't need either, enemies just need to be fixed. Get rid of armor scaling in endless missions and buff weak weapons, simple enough

[Phyrak]

4 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

We don't need either, enemies just need to be fixed. Get rid of armor scaling in endless missions and buff weak weapons, simple enough

Not as simple as it sounds

Armour scaling, as with shield scaling occurs as a tangent

A lot of people like playing against the nightwatch as they seemed to have a balance between one shot (butchers) and not being bullet sponges (napalms), thus creating a more interesting game

Scaling provides some challenge so long as the player can match said challenge - one shots and health ad infinitum are not challenges, that is boring play

Such as with what the latest dev stream discussed in the tweaks to nullifiers

The above suggestions both allow for one to play as they wish whilst keeping progression and long term reward in the way of mods and modding frames and weapons

As such, it may be a little easier to do so rather than looking at every unit in game, base stats and damage and determine which tangent they suit best in as they level in endless missions

[SeaUrchins]

I say make mods bind to the item when they are installed. More grind for the god of grind.

[Phyrak]

7 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said:

I say make mods bind to the item when they are installed. More grind for the god of grind.

I would prefer not to torture noobies as fun as it sounds XD

Though, this does have some merit particularly pertaining to augments

If you like an augment enough, why not bind it to the frame/weapon?

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

16 hours ago, Phyrak said:

Armour scaling, as with shield scaling occurs as a tangent

But why? Shield scaling and health scaling make sense, but the way armor works in the game effectively makes the Grineer bulletsponges starting at 30 minutes or sooner depending on the mission, which isn't fun, unless you like sitting in place and shooting one Napalm for an hour till he dies in this imaginary scenario. Every node has a fixed level they start at, so the enemies in the mission should have corresponding amounts of armor to that level and not infinitely be able to carry more and more armor on themselves.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Modding on Warframes feels pretty balanced aside from auras. Stack strength, lose duration and efficiency. Stack for survival, lose mods space for powers. etc.

Weapons on the other hand have such a dependency on damage mods that utility mods are sidelined every single time. If they want to expand how we mod them they need to separate damage from utility. If I want extra zoom I'm not going to sacrifice 200 extra damage per shot to get it.

So yeah I sorta agree with op. Just not to the extreme of sacrificing my variety for streamlining.

Edited January 9, 2017 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Phyrak]

7 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

But why? Shield scaling and health scaling make sense, but the way armor works in the game effectively makes the Grineer bulletsponges starting at 30 minutes or sooner depending on the mission, which isn't fun, unless you like sitting in place and shooting one Napalm for an hour till he dies in this imaginary scenario. Every node has a fixed level they start at, so the enemies in the mission should have corresponding amounts of armor to that level and not infinitely be able to carry more and more armor on themselves.

Perhaps minor armour in comparison to health

Either way, a tangent is needed akin to the nightwatch

[Phyrak]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Modding on Warframes feels pretty balanced aside from auras. Stack strength, lose duration and efficiency. Stack for survival, lose mods space for powers. etc.

Weapons on the other hand have such a dependency on damage mods that utility mods are sidelined every single time. If they want to expand how we mod them they need to separate damage from utility. If I want extra zoom I'm not going to sacrifice 200 extra damage per shot to get it.

So yeah I sorta agree with op. Just not to the extreme of sacrificing my variety for streamlining.

Variety of modding can be increased but focusing on the dedicated slot

Yes, steps need to be taken as to allow for a balance between everything suggested

The idea here is to create discussion and give sides to those thoughts rarely spoken

[(XBOX)dabkevinhere710]

I like the idea of having 1 extra slot for defense (health , shield, armor) since it would open up space for more builds and anyway most of the time people will only run with one. I could see how this could make too Warframe tanky.

I would also like the utility mod slot. As long as it's nothing that upgrade damage. And is only for movement and or play style.

[Sziklamester]

I am for a skill Tree System instead of mods. If we want a properly working mod System then we need a lot more slots and make those slots to use the said type. For example 12 slot 4-4-4 for damage, utility, defense etc. You can put only a limited amount of mods to each so this can maybe reduce the powercreep and mantain a build variety.

[Phyrak]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)dabkevinhere710 said:

I like the idea of having 1 extra slot for defense (health , shield, armor) since it would open up space for more builds and anyway most of the time people will only run with one. I could see how this could make too Warframe tanky.

I would also like the utility mod slot. As long as it's nothing that upgrade damage. And is only for movement and or play style.

That's the hope

We too often just build for damage or cc

No other utility mods are really put in all that often - thus dedicated slots to allow such things to occur would be very useful. Especially with more interesting foes on the way

8 hours ago, Sziklamester said:

I am for a skill Tree System instead of mods. If we want a properly working mod System then we need a lot more slots and make those slots to use the said type. For example 12 slot 4-4-4 for damage, utility, defense etc. You can put only a limited amount of mods to each so this can maybe reduce the powercreep and mantain a build variety.

Interesting.

Kinda like what they had back in beta

Dedicated slots for a specific purpose will definitively reduce creep and at the same time allow for more creative mods to be introduced like that of simaris' mods

[DrBorris]

This is not the first time something like this has been proposed, and I assume it will not be the last. 

This is the most famous thread where it was detailed, and it is one hell of a topic... 

... Except that DE explicitly called out this thread on a Devstream and said having dedicated slots went against the intentions of what modding should be. I am inclined to agree. 

[Phyrak]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

This is not the first time something like this has been proposed, and I assume it will not be the last. 

This is the most famous thread where it was detailed, and it is one hell of a topic... 

... Except that DE explicitly called out this thread on a Devstream and said having dedicated slots went against the intentions of what modding should be. I am inclined to agree. 

Interesting

One problem of our current modding system is that its a little bland

Its always all out damage with few utility mods applied

If we could gain a balance between them - say x% additional damage for every utility, % added changes with type of mod added

That could be interesting

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

On 1/10/2017 at 5:33 AM, Phyrak said:

Interesting

One problem of our current modding system is that its a little bland

Its always all out damage with few utility mods applied

If we could gain a balance between them - say x% additional damage for every utility, % added changes with type of mod added

That could be interesting

The problem is that it's the players choice. You wanna build only for strength, or duration, etc? Then you do that. I can do just fine by focusing on all attributes at once and not specializing or I can always take an augment. If anything, a dedicated augment slot would be nice

Edited January 12, 2017 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4

[Phyrak]

4 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

The problem is that it's the players choice. You wanna build only for strength, or duration, etc? Then you do that. I can do just fine by focusing on all attributes at once and not specializing or I can always take an augment. If anything, a dedicated augment slot would be nice

Aye

Only ever building for 1 or maybe 2 abilities is a problem

Nidus is basically the only frame that can play all 4 abilities effectively

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

20 hours ago, Phyrak said:

Aye

Only ever building for 1 or maybe 2 abilities is a problem

Nidus is basically the only frame that can play all 4 abilities effectively

That's absolute BS and by far one of the most egregious opinions floating around here. That's a personal problem if you can't use your own frame effectively, 
I for one have no problems combo-ing abilities off each other. What I'm saying is that it's a players personal responsibility to mod as they want or even properly. That doesn't mean the problem is with abilities.

[Phyrak]

44 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

That's absolute BS and by far one of the most egregious opinions floating around here. That's a personal problem if you can't use your own frame effectively, 
I for one have no problems combo-ing abilities off each other. What I'm saying is that it's a players personal responsibility to mod as they want or even properly. That doesn't mean the problem is with abilities.

Perhaps me showing my age in playing this game for so long

Perhap an exaggeration considering the last few reworks removed 4 spamming

Abilities combo-ing is something needed imo

Most frames tend to neglect 1 ability

When was the last time you saw:

Chroma/mesa use 1?

Mirage use 2?

Vauban use 2?

Internal synergy is well needed

As of the last year, such spamming has been reduced - but that doesn't mean there can't be more done to diversify mods and builds in general

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

8 minutes ago, Phyrak said:

mesa use 1?

Mirage use 2?

I've been playing with Mesa and it feels like it's be amazing for snipers or launchers to have one focused shot. Problem is there's no immediate feedback like wow that's something. It's like getting a red crit. Half-hearted woo and it's back to the grindstone. Just needs a visual overhaul. Otherwise Mesa does have synergy. She needs shatter shield to use peacemaker without dying, and peacemaker fills up her ballistic battery. And shooting gallery acts as a personal and team buffer.

Mirage if I weren't so sick of seeing her everywhere I feel like I'd use her in the Kuva Fortress if there were any reason to go there. Though her other moves are kinda outdated as well. Her 3 and 4 could synergize well.

Otherwise yeah I agree. Vauban just feels gimmicky. Bastille is still king and spammy. His fourth lost all purpose when simulor became a thing. Honestly have no idea what they could do with him. Chroma his elemental ward and vex armor work together but feel very redundant. Though I always imagined his 1 and 4 working together because his 4 uses his 1. Mag's crush even though I've found some niche uses for it feels like it was left out of her rework. Atlas I thought enemies that were turned to stone would take more damage from his landslide....I was wrong. Also knocking down those rock-walls of his with landslide with the augment on.

There's so much they could do.

[Hypernaut1]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

 

I've been playing with Mesa and it feels like it's be amazing for snipers or launchers to have one focused shot. Problem is there's no immediate feedback like wow that's something. It's like getting a red crit. Half-hearted woo and it's back to the grindstone. Just needs a visual overhaul. Otherwise Mesa does have synergy. She needs shatter shield to use peacemaker without dying, and peacemaker fills up her ballistic battery. And shooting gallery acts as a personal and team buffer.

Mirage if I weren't so sick of seeing her everywhere I feel like I'd use her in the Kuva Fortress if there were any reason to go there. Though her other moves are kinda outdated as well. Her 3 and 4 could synergize well.

Otherwise yeah I agree. Vauban just feels gimmicky. Bastille is still king and spammy. His fourth lost all purpose when simulor became a thing. Honestly have no idea what they could do with him. Chroma his elemental ward and vex armor work together but feel very redundant. Though I always imagined his 1 and 4 working together because his 4 uses his 1. Mag's crush even though I've found some niche uses for it feels like it was left out of her rework. Atlas I thought enemies that were turned to stone would take more damage from his landslide....I was wrong. Also knocking down those rock-walls of his with landslide with the augment on.

There's so much they could do.

If Mesa's 1 passively stored power, it would be killer. As it is now, its a 4 step process. Activate the ability, store energy, deactivate it, shoot. It should simply be a move where she unleashes passively stored up energy from her primary. Its too easy to forget setting it up for when you need it. Its better to ignore it than deal with the frustration of timing. 

[Phyrak]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

I've been playing with Mesa and it feels like it's be amazing for snipers or launchers to have one focused shot. Problem is there's no immediate feedback like wow that's something. It's like getting a red crit. Half-hearted woo and it's back to the grindstone. Just needs a visual overhaul. Otherwise Mesa does have synergy. She needs shatter shield to use peacemaker without dying, and peacemaker fills up her ballistic battery. And shooting gallery acts as a personal and team buffer.

Mirage if I weren't so sick of seeing her everywhere I feel like I'd use her in the Kuva Fortress if there were any reason to go there. Though her other moves are kinda outdated as well. Her 3 and 4 could synergize well.

Otherwise yeah I agree. Vauban just feels gimmicky. Bastille is still king and spammy. His fourth lost all purpose when simulor became a thing. Honestly have no idea what they could do with him. Chroma his elemental ward and vex armor work together but feel very redundant. Though I always imagined his 1 and 4 working together because his 4 uses his 1. Mag's crush even though I've found some niche uses for it feels like it was left out of her rework. Atlas I thought enemies that were turned to stone would take more damage from his landslide....I was wrong. Also knocking down those rock-walls of his with landslide with the augment on.

There's so much they could do.

Exactly this

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If Mesa's 1 passively stored power, it would be killer. As it is now, its a 4 step process. Activate the ability, store energy, deactivate it, shoot. It should simply be a move where she unleashes passively stored up energy from her primary. Its too easy to forget setting it up for when you need it. Its better to ignore it than deal with the frustration of timing. 

So you want an activated ability to become a passive because you need to click it on and off?

EDIT: Nvm I see what you mean. Click on to store, off to use it. Cutting the click to store part.

Y'know they could make ballistic battery into an ammo version of energy leech. Her peacemakers could use her secondary ammo and you'd restore them using a few well placed ballistic battery shots. Her peacemakers still feel just like her old ones. just you need to quickly deactivate them to reset the reticule. No real downsides except energy use which is only effected by energy leeches.

Energy leeches are another mechanic that need a look at. Besides nullies, they're the real threat to power usage. Though this Nidus type of resource management could see an end to them eventually.

Edited January 13, 2017 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Phyrak]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

So you want an activated ability to become a passive because you need to click it on and off?

EDIT: Nvm I see what you mean. Click on to store, off to use it. Cutting the click to store part.

Good change

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

On 1/13/2017 at 2:39 AM, Phyrak said:

When was the last time you saw:

Chroma/mesa use 1?

Mirage use 2?

Vauban use 2?

Everytime I play as Chroma or with a Mesa/ Chroma? Little known thing about Chroma's 1 is that you are immune to all knockdown. Mesa's 1 is good for spikes of damage and should be running at all times honestly.

That one is honestly the players fault, considering it's a really good ability, perhaps even her most powerful considering all it does. It seems the community just doesn't know how to actually play as Mirage, she's more than HoM

Vauban's 2 is entirely situational

[Phyrak]

3 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Everytime I play as Chroma or with a Mesa/ Chroma? Little known thing about Chroma's 1 is that you are immune to all knockdown. Mesa's 1 is good for spikes of damage and should be running at all times honestly.

That one is honestly the players fault, considering it's a really good ability, perhaps even her most powerful considering all it does. It seems the community just doesn't know how to actually play as Mirage, she's more than HoM

Vauban's 2 is entirely situational

Vauban is in need of tweaking his abilities still imo