Parkour 2.5, having dodges that matter.

[(PSN)theelix]

This is going to be a very short thread, because I'm sure many people who've been playing the game for a while already understand how the concept I want to speak of is currently "already in the game" or, more accurately, is part of emergent gameplay already. 

 

We need dashes, not rolls. In a game where your movement determines how long you survive sometimes, rolls are a hindrance, and don't even do what they're meant to as effectively as the dash that we have. It's like the Warm Coat of dodges. Not even worth the time because it gives such a minimal effect. 

As far as I've seen, no one actually uses rolls to mitigate damage unless it's from something stupid that halts your progression, like a laser barrier, because they're pretty worthless for that anyway. Everyone uses rolls for the additional speed, and that's why we need dashes, as opposed to rolls. The rolls in this game are unpolished, go far too linearly and too slowly to avoid damage or change enemy accuracy effectively, can't be chained well, and are generally worthless outside of the world of corridor speeding. They don't even properly change your trajectory whilst in air. 

A dash, which we already technically have if you "tablehop"/tap the slide button only long enough to avoid that garbage we call rolling. 

"But since we already have that 'dash' why is this thread being created?" Because that dash also has massive amounts of problems when it comes to movement as well, even though it's still leagues more superior to rolling as it doesn't keep you from firing your weapon, changes enemy accuracy, and is more effective at changing your trajectory in the air as well as allowing you to perform other maneuvers. It's problems are as listed: it looks disgusting when going from side to side. Far less disgusting than side rolls, since you're not breaking your neck and having your head clip through the floor. But it still looks disgusting. Also, these dashes don't have any mitigation or effect ignoring frames, like the ability to pass through laser doors.

I'd like to see the dash take its rightful place as the real dodge of warframe, and be properly implemented by the development team, with animations and mitigations. It would be far more positive for gameplay. 

[Magnar21]

Rolling currently lets you resist knockback/knockdowns, so I use it against the fire eximus units and the like, but not to resist damage. Otherwise, I'd like to see more movement options, and tilesets that support said movement options.

[[DE]Momaw]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but rolling reduces damage taken mid-roll by 75%, before any other forms of mitigation are considered.

That most people don't roll to mitigate damage probably has more to do with the fact that

• Game doesn't teach you about the damage reduction benefit of rolling anywhere (improve tutorial)
• Game defaults to have a dual bind for sprint/roll which is far less practical than using separate binds (improve key binds)
• Game is unbalanced at high levels and 75% damage reduction often isn't enough to save you from death (rebalance high levels)

Edited January 25, 2017 by Momaw

[(PSN)theelix]

50 minutes ago, Momaw said:

I'm not sure if you're aware, but rolling reduces damage taken mid-roll by 75%, before any other forms of mitigation are considered.

That most people don't roll to mitigate damage probably has more to do with the fact that

• Game doesn't teach you about the damage reduction benefit of rolling anywhere (improve tutorial)
• Game defaults to have a dual bind for sprint/roll which is far less practical than using separate binds (improve key binds)
• Game is unbalanced at high levels and 75% damage reduction often isn't enough to save you from death (rebalance high levels)

52 minutes ago, Magnar21 said:

Rolling currently lets you resist knockback/knockdowns, so I use it against the fire eximus units and the like, but not to resist damage. 

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)theelix said:

As far as I've seen, no one actually uses rolls to mitigate damage unless it's from something stupid that halts your progression, like a laser barrier, because they're pretty worthless for that anyway.

I'd like to see the dash take its rightful place as the real dodge of warframe, and be properly implemented by the development team, with animations and mitigations. It would be far more positive for gameplay. 

Yes, I do know that it has mitigations.

This does not change any of the narrative of my thread, and your points are all separate topics that should be addressed individually. This issue is not to be lumped in with them, it's a fundamental of how the game is played and changing this has effects on two of those, not vice versa. Improving keybinds won't make anyone who doesn't use rolls now use them, and it won't change the way people who are using rolls use them any differently. Rebalancing high levels (which is namely reducing burst damage to manageable levels) will still not get people to change using rolls how they do, because the downside to rolling is not being able to change your trajectory for the duration, and being unable to perform some abilities that provide CC. 

It's almost similar to how the Bloodborne community handled dodging in that game. 

 

Dashes were amazing and, while they didn't last as long and I believe had slightly less i-frames in them, used predominantly over their slower, less useful counterpart, the roll. It's actually so bad that I've spent a literal ten minutes during the making of this reply trying to find a roll gif that's not using the Old Hunter's Bone and I can't. They served the exact same purpose, to evade attacks, but one was simply better than the other, and that's the case here.

 

Even simply sliding is better than rolling in this game, because you get the same momentum boost since DE changed rolls to work off your movement speed and friction just like slides, it changes enemy accuracy more effectively and longer than dodging and you can cancel it at any time and stage counter attacks while doing it. 

Edited January 25, 2017 by (PS4)theelix

[Birdframe_Prime]

While I hear what you're saying about dashes in other games being superior to the rolling evasions we have right now, I think you're needlessly complicating the system.

We have side-flips, backflips and dodge rolls in game, all we need to do is improve their speed, not introduce an entire tertiary layer of keybindings to the movement controls that may actually be completely un-necessary if the original ones are improved just a little.

You see, your problems see to hinge, as I see it, on the long animations, the clunky execution and the idea that, somehow, we need an evasion that does not actually help us in traversing the game in the way that the current dodges do. And you seem to want it because you've played a lot of games where the choice between a roll or a dash is decided based on the enemies you're facing and what kind of movements they can make. Except... none of our enemies behave like those games, and we can, in all honesty, evade everything the enemies do apart from firing guns by basically sprinting around them. Another thing is that height is a factor in this game, we can literally out-elevate almost every enemy in this game, and glide around up there for a while to catch our breaths.

See, unlike the games where a dash is implemented, namely RPG style hack and slash (/shooter) games against crowds of enemies (which Warframe can be compared to, I'll admit) Warframe doesn't actually have 90% of the mechanics those games do that make a dash necessary, and the times when a dodge of some description is necessary, it's quite obvious that you would use the roll over a dash anyway.

For example, boss fights, while cinematically made to resemble those of other RPGs, are far more about ranged combat and straight up damage to weak points than they are about finesse, often damage mitigation is taken up by our own abilities instead of by evasion, or by simply standing next to cover and 'peaking' on the enemy at the right time. Those abilities that would actually require a dodge, such as Sargas Ruk's fire blasts, are better mitigated by a roll, and those that seem like a dash would be perfect, like Kela de Thaym's missile barrages, can actually be avoided by regular running and don't need even our tapping the slide button if you're calm about it.

The literal single boss that even looks like they need a dash is Lephantis, and even with one, without damage mitigation frames to that dash you're going to die to the same attacks that would kill you when you're bullet jumping.

And if, as you mentioned, a dash doesn't have any damage mitigation to it, then it immediately becomes necessary to keep our rolling anyway to get through fire blasts from Eximus units and through the laser grids, it would still be tacked onto aerial movement to extend motions and it would still be used for all the same things it is now.

Loosely put, I can't see where a dash would actually be needed in a game where none of the enemies have mechanics that are fast enough to catch us when we don't want them to anyway. Compared to your apparent viewpoint on the matter, I'd say you need to compare Warframe less to an RPG with gun and melee play, and more like a horde shooter with a solid melee and RPG element built into its shootery goodness.

To put it another way, if you're thinking about this game in the terms where you'd need to stop and combat an enemy in the way you would in any other RPG, then you're going too slow ^^

[OkamiA]

I like the roll in particular because it makes Ivara move faster in Prowl. A dash, as of described by the OP, would break the Prowl and she'd be stuck moving at a walking pace all the damn time.

 

With the roll though... "I'm just rollin, rollin, rollin around..."

[EinheriarJudith]

On 1/25/2017 at 3:19 AM, Momaw said:

I'm not sure if you're aware, but rolling reduces damage taken mid-roll by 75%, before any other forms of mitigation are considered.

That most people don't roll to mitigate damage probably has more to do with the fact that

• Game doesn't teach you about the damage reduction benefit of rolling anywhere (improve tutorial)
• Game defaults to have a dual bind for sprint/roll which is far less practical than using separate binds (improve key binds)
• Game is unbalanced at high levels and 75% damage reduction often isn't enough to save you from death (rebalance high levels)

keep up the good work ^_^!!!!

[MotherofHermes]

i think the rolling in warframe is great. but ive played a lot of dark souls so i constantly roll. 

i would like to be able to reload my gun during.

[P0Pz]

I understand your point of view.

But i would add natural stats for it.

Why not add a natural given "evasion" 5/8 from 100. (With a max of maybe 40/45 max?!)

Starting, some frames with 5-8 and others with 15-18 natural evasion points. (15/18 hits from 100 = dodged)

Weak health/armor / offensive frames ~ < more evasion. 

Caster typ frame on other hand should have a enemie fail rate to place successful a skill based damage on you, like "wisdom".

Instead Evasion better call it: "Agility".

For heavy frontier frames, add a dmg block/parry stats. Maybe bind to *if shield* equiped to give a bonus.

The more points the higher the chance enemies fail to hit/place a skill atack on you or block & counter atack enemie.

 

Hmm

Give a player a way to increase stats points. Like every time a frame reach lvl30 you are able to "upgrade" the frame. Which resets the frame back to lvl 1 but unlocks 0,5/1 free stats point. Something like this...you need to play..earn exp and unlock another free to place stats point...

Just a idea 😉

Edited January 30, 2017 by P0Pz