Riven re-rolls are slot machines and I find it troubling

[AerinSol]

I do love how a DE employee hasn't already addressed us that they know of our concerns are at the least talking aboot it.

[ChuckMaverick]

13 minutes ago, SerionSerian said:

more different dispositions. some weapons now get with the strong disposition a huge buff to the already strong stats. not that i dont like it. but also some "weak disposition" get strong stats. may 7 or 9 dispositions for finetuning. some older weapons are still totally useless (who wonder, that are lowlevel-weapons. may it should be still like that).

The three disposition descriptions that you see in the UI (Strong, Neutral and Faint) are a simplification of the actual dispositions that weapons have which range from 0.5 to 1.55 currently.

 

[MokutoBunshi]

On 2/10/2017 at 6:59 PM, k05h said:

I have been seeing rivens in the trading post that go for 1000-2500 plat. I can barely imagine how someone feels that sells for these prices. This price also shows other players that they have to get into the rng of daily sortie, the dedicated farming of kuva and the re-rolling over and over again until they hit the god-riven jackpot.

I have friends with real life gambling addictions. And everything about rivens reminds of that. Rivens do use the same mechanics as slot machines do. When you insert more money in the form of paid boosters you can do more re-rolls in a shorter amount of time because you get more kuva. After each re-roll you wait for the plat jackpot instead of the money jackpot on slot machines. And doing this over and over again does count as conditioning for your brain the same way as slot machines. From what I see there is only short way from here to real life gambling addiction.
 
I think the whole mechanic of rivens does push the wrong buttons for those that are susceptible for gambling. Warframe was a game for completionists and collectors before we had rivens. Now I feel it turns into a very unhealthy direction.

"I have friends with real life gambling addictions. And everything about rivens reminds of that. Rivens do use the same mechanics as slot machines do. When you insert more money in the form of paid boosters you can do more re-rolls in a shorter amount of time because you get more kuva. After each re-roll you wait for the plat jackpot instead of the money jackpot on slot machines. And doing this over and over again does count as conditioning for your brain the same way as slot machines. From what I see there is only short way from here to real life gambling addiction."

 

Your right, thank god there is burnout.

This does need a change.

 

]\'[

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, AerinSol said:

I do love how a DE employee hasn't already addressed us that they know of our concerns are at the least talking aboot it.

The Feedback section of the forum is for communicating with DE, not the General Discussion section.

[(PSN)ElementalLeaf]

On 3/14/2017 at 3:06 PM, Azamagon said:

Oh geez, where to begin, indeed...

Before we start, check my first post in this thread (it's the first reply in the thread). That's the gist of how I'd like to tweak Rivens, more or less.
Back to your response:

So, removing most of the RNG from Rivens would defeat their purpose, eh?

1) The purpose of Rivens are to spice up old weapons. To make them useful again without the need of tampering with the weapons themselves, to allow for both a tiering and sidegrade system to coexist. It's a brilliant idea really.
HOWEVER, if the main PURPOSE of Rivens was that they are all about 100% RNG (Note; I'm not oppposed to SOME of the RNG, as you can tell from my first post in this thread), then that'd mean they'd just be intended malicious content (exactly as the OP is trying to claim with their gambling-esque nature) all with DE trying to milk money via plat etc.

About the RNG itself;
First - Yes, RNG is partly what makes Rivens unique. But their strong multistat function is the more important part of Rivens. The pure RNG is actually more of a hindrance to their functional purpose of spicing up old weapons.

Second - Just because something is unique, doesn't mean it's good. Case in point: Some Riven rolls can make your gun completely worthless. So much for spicing up your old weapon, eh?

About variety:
If we could customize our Riven mods, how would that reduce variety? Sure, many would go for damagebuilds (hence why I suggested all the stuff I said in my first post, so there would still be some variety and choice, remember that please). But many people, myself included, don't want pure damage in their Riven mods either.
In fact, if you could customize the Rivens, especially if it was CHEAP to do so, people would probably be way more likely to actually get playful with silly stats, to play around with their Rivens' stats, rather than just always going for a "metabuild". You know, actual CREATIVITY, to HAVE FUN in this game, to feel we have a reachable goal when we farm Kuva, rather than what it is now; to have a tedious WORK to get even halfway to what we'd like to test out.
I'd even dare to say that the complete reliance on RNG on the given stats means that people are MORE prone to wanna use them with "meta"stats, because why settle for something less than "great", when it takes so much luck, time and/or money to even get something decent by constant retrying with the rerolls? Especially on weak weapons who could need all the power they could get to even get somewhat viable. You know, those weapons which the Rivens were mainly aimed for?

For example, the Supra Riven that you have right now, which you like, what if you wanna try out something different with it? Are you gonna reroll it hundreds of times to try out new stats? What if you really don't like any of the new stats and you wanna go back to your first liked roll? You're either out of luck, or you'd rather have to get a NEW Riven for Supra from the start to play with THAT Riven, so it's gonna cost you something greatly (time and/or money), whichever way you look at it.

Don't be blinded: Their RNG-nature is just a monetary win on DE's side, and something that hinders real choices (or rather, forces fake choices) on the player's side.

Also, the fact that we can get BAD variety makes Rivens do the OPPOSITE of their main purpose...

2) And I still can't wrap my head around how can believe that RNG = Creative.
No, the words you should tie to the Rivens' RNG are either Complacency, Gambling or Surrender. You are forced to either deal with what you get, for good or for bad (complacency), or you are forced to do tons of rerolls and/or grind Sorties daily (gambling), or just sell that pile of dung (surrender). None of that is letting out our creativity whatsoever.
EDIT: The only "creative" thing about the RNG I can sort of agreed with, is when the stats seem workable enough to warrant you / makes your curious enough to try them out, making your eyes open and say "hey, this is actually useful/fun!". I guess that is what you're trying to say?
Needless to say, I personally don't need that push, I try that out myself with the regular non-RNG mods quite frequently. But I certainly would try out a whole bunch of silly stuff with Rivens if I could customize my Rivens, especially so if it was cheaper in Kuva-costs. So, yeah, I personally don't need the all RNG-stats to "push me" to try new things out. But maybe others do? *shrugs*

Also you said: "Would have NEVER done that before the introduction of rivens."
Yeah, so? I'm not opposed to Rivens as a general idea, I'm just very opposed to their RNG^99. If you got a Flux Rifle riven, and could customize it freely, you'd STILL be able to use it like you are now, you know? Just, you wouldn't had to reroll a couple of dozen times until you got lucky enough to make it worthwhile. You could go straight to making it fun and useful however YOU wanted it to. No luck needed. And you could try out multiple new things for it too, if you feel like experimenting with creative builds, without needing to buy a new one / reroll an unknown amount of times.

3) Rivens already do that? Only if you are lucky, stubborn or rich.
And no, Rivens do NOT work like any other mod in this game. Other mods you either grind for it or buy it, yes, but then when you get it, you level it up and then you are done. But with Rivens, even after you have acquired it, you can potentially spend your entirely life rerolling it and still not get something decent out of it. And that could hold true for just -ONE- Riven.
 

My point is, in short:
I like Rivens, as an idea. But I hate their excessive RNG, and would like the RNG to be toned down heavily, so they don't cater to just  the lucky, rich or insanely stubborn people, I rather want them to cater to anyone that wants to spice up a particular weapon (mainly old ones).

I'm going to go bottom up this time. And for the sake of effort/time on your part, I'll put the essentials in bold and underline (essentially a tl;dr if you will, because those are the core of my argument)

 

3. Stubborn, lucky, or rich. Well, you see, as with any game that's built on the premise of RNG, as most are nowadays, yes, you have to be lucky. Or, if you aren't any of the three, you can spend plat to buy it from someone in the trading board that is. Again though, that's on you, not DE. They gave you multiple paths to reach the end result. You don't have to be rich to afford a riven for a crappy gun with a strong disposition type, even at god roll levels. because the gun sucks, the value of its riven also goes down as a result. And if you're trying to buy a god roll simulor riven or something well that's on you. We both agree that rivens are to spice up old/useless weapons though so for the sake of saving time, I'm going to treat them as such contextually and refer back to my statement about how you don't have to be rich to afford a riven for a bad gun.I've LITERALLY spent more plat on FORMA BUNDLES to upgrade the weapons than I have on the rivens themselves and I have 22 rivens now. 

2. Again, everything would be god roll then and the rivens would lose all value. They would just became a Serration 2.0/Multi-shot 2.0. And woe be to any unfortunate soul that couldn't get rivens because the amount of scaling that would be done on the enemies as a result of everyone running around with a simulor multishot-serration combo would render literally everything else useless again. It would just become the next "essential" mod like Serration and Split Chamber already have. So no thx. At least with RNG, scaling doesn't have to play an issue because god rolls are also god rarity and don't saturate the market and builds so frequently that DE has to scale everything else to match. And that, once again, DEFEATS the purpose of rivens.

 

Also, I'm going to quote this, again, because of how pretentious it is, or at least sounds that way to me.
"No, the words you should tie to the Rivens' RNG are either Complacency, Gambling or Surrender. You are forced to either deal with what you get, for good or for bad (complacency), or you are forced to do tons of rerolls and/or grind Sorties daily (gambling), or just sell that pile of dung (surrender). None of that is letting out our creativity whatsoever."

First of all, I am not "forced" to deal with anything, because of the reason I mentioned above, there is no scaling of enemies with rivens (unlike if they became essentials 2.0 as they inevitably would under your idea). So from the get go, the entire riven thing is an optional journey I am embarking on. At no point did rivens become essential so I'm not "forced" to deal with anything. In the event a riven becomes useless (its been rerolled too often or I don't want it anymore) I can just sell it someone else. As for your "section" on "gambling" - as an end game MR 23 player with 1000+ hrs into this game already, running sorties is a cakewalk and usually ends up being done daily as is, so getting rivens out of it is just a deal-sweetner, not the cause of "gambling" as your statement would imply. And it's a far better reward than lenses so at least it gives sorties something fun for potential end rewards. *AND* for people that don't want to deal in riven gameplay (because as I mentioned, THANKS TO RNG, it's not considered an essential 2.0), they can just sell veiled rivens for plats, so that gives sorties another viable and realistic reason to be completed.

As for your "edit" yes, that is what I meant.

1. I've already talked on how this would make rivens essentials 2.0 so I'm not going to repeat that, but regardless of what you "think" <most> players would do with their rivens, that is still what would happen <at enough frequency> that everything else scales to match, and once they are essentials 2.0, your entire rhetoric about choices and hindrances (basically the core of your argument for #1) flies out the window, since once it is essential 2.0, most people will feel <forced> to do the metabuild anyways to contend with the scaling that subsequently follows and there's your answer of "variety" being disproved.

 

[(PSN)ElementalLeaf]

Tl;dr version: Again, everything would be god roll then and the rivens would lose all value. You think this would open the road to variety, but it wouldn't. Rivens would just became a Serration 2.0/Multi-shot 2.0. The amount of scaling that would be done on the enemies as a result of many people running around with a simulor multishot-serration combo would render literally everything else useless again. Regardless of what you "think" <most> players would do with their rivens, that is still what would happen <at enough frequency> that everything else scales to match, unlike right now because of the RNG-wall. When enemies scale to match metabuild god rolls, it would thus just become the next "essential" mod like Serration and Split Chamber already have. At least with RNG, scaling doesn't have to play an issue because god rolls are also god rarity and don't saturate the market and builds so frequently that DE has to scale everything else to match. If rivens became essential 2.0, most people will feel <forced> to do the metabuild anyways to contend with the scaling that subsequently follows and there's your answer of "variety" being disproved.

*sorry for the double-post, but I think a tl;dr might be useful as it's own post*

[Skaleek]

Well written @k05h. Totally agree. In a game that fosters completionism Rivens fuels the fire of many, myself included, to get perfect Rivens for weapons. I've found that I need to learn the phrase "good enough". I think the Riven cap is a frustrating too, because i'd love to have a Riven that i can work on for every weapon.

The way i play now is I logon, do the sortie, do whatever floods are up, and then ill pick my weakest Riven (out of 50) and try to spend the day improving that particular Riven. Gotta be careful not to get sucked in, i feel bad for any gambling addicts playing this. I'd advise them to stay away from Rivens entirely.

I only run Kuva with a resource booster, so I've been shelling out for the 30 day boosters since Kuva was introduced. I think I'm at the point now where I'm just going to let my booster lapse and then leave Kuva for a while, maybe until melee Rivens come out. Might be freeing to ignore Kuva, really.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I agree that this might incentive addiction on some people. Myself included. I also do sorties e get back to the rivens. 

There is ZERO rewards for skill or efforts in the hole system. Just a happy marriage between RNG and GRIND

[Azamagon]

On 2017-03-15 at 5:26 PM, zzzNitro said:

The Panthera is a weapon I already liked before Rivens and had a lot of Formas on it, after Rivens got my hands on one for it and Oh boi it shreds enemies now, even a lvl 100 Corrupted Juggernaut got destroyed by it. So the Panthera not being Sortie-viable is hard to believe, sorry.

Really?
What stats do you have on it? Mine is Damage, Heat and Flight Speed (love that QoL for the primary!). Might have to give it a rerun, i remember it still having troubles (especially with the primary, the secondary is decently strong). I might need a memory-refresher

4 hours ago, (PS4)ElementalLeaf said:

-snip-

Here's the funny thing:

At later levels (like sortie 3), the game IS already somewhat balanced around Rivens.

Why do I say that?

Meta weapons -> Weak Riven disposition, to the point that it's kind of pointless to even USE a Riven on them. They are often sidegrade mods when compared to the regular mods. Thus, they are already balanced in themselves and around Rivens, as the Rivens don't affect them too much.

Non-meta weapons -> Neutral/Strong Riven disposition, with those Rivens they often get strong enough that you can use them (with some varied results ofc) on high level play, at near (or sometimes slightly better!) meta-power! Rivens are thus practically essential (still with varied degrees) to make the weaker weapons viable at high level play.
In other words, for the weak weaponry, they ALREADY ARE the Serration2.0/Multishot 2.0 mods, but only if you get those good rolls (not necessarily needing PERFECT rolls, at least not on the mid-tier weapons).

As a side note, I find it kind of funny (at least this is how it feels like for me), modding for QoL is usually what seems to work the best for the meta weapons (can't really put all much input to that though, as I mainly try to get Rivens for the low/mid-tier weapons), as that usually helps them more than when going for straight damage-stuff. The non-meta weapons don't have the same luxury, or even feel like needing (at least one) a huge specific QoL-buff to make them feel somewhat useable. So, Serration2.0/Multishot2.0, to some degree, is aleady kind of how you HAVE to treat the Rivens for the non-meta weapons' to make them late-game useable.

So your counterarguement that "RNG is what keeps them in check", is actually objectively false. The reason that they are kept in decent check is due to disposition. Due to that, that also means that if Rivens had a lot of the RNG removed from them, DE would hardly need to do anything in regards to the keeping the current "balance" in check! Disposition already kind of preemptively fixed that, not the RNG.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Azamagon

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

There is ZERO rewards for skill or efforts in the hole system. Just a happy marriage between RNG and GRIND

I disagree.

The skill is in choosing the best stats to aim for that suit the weapon in question.

The effort is farming kuva and re-rolling.

Both are rewarded.

[(PSN)ElementalLeaf]

3 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Non-meta weapons -> Neutral/Strong Riven disposition, with those Rivens they often get strong enough that you can use them (with some varied results ofc) on high level play, at near (or sometimes slightly better!) meta-power! Rivens are thus practically essential (still with varied degrees) to make the weaker weapons viable at high level play.
In other words, for the weak weaponry, they ALREADY ARE the Serration2.0/Multishot 2.0 mods, but only if you get those good rolls (not necessarily needing PERFECT rolls, at least not on the mid-tier weapons).

You can't claim something is an essential and then add a clause to it stating only under these circumstances.

A serration is an essential under all circumstances. A riven either is or is not an essential. And considering those rolls aren't oversaturated, the answer is that it isn't an essential. Also is proven by the fact that a lot of people, some even in this thread itself, have said they just steer clear of rivens entirely. Ergo, it's a non-essential. Under your ideas however, it would become an essential, considering everyone WOULD have a serration/multishot 2.0 on their weapons, and thus even the weaker weapons would shred through almost everything until the end tier game. Which would then lead to scaling, which would then lead to god rolls becoming essential 2.0. Which would then defeat the purpose of rivens, which is to make bad weapons great again, considering it would just have become a serration 2.0 requiring that damage/multishot roll with all the enemies upscaled to match that, and taking out that window of "variety" you were claiming it would bestow instead. Your ideas would actually *stifle* creativity FAR MORE than whatever system DE has implemented.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

4 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I disagree.

The skill is in choosing the best stats to aim for that suit the weapon in question.

The effort is farming kuva and re-rolling.

Both are rewarded.

They are rewarded up to the point where you have to roll to get what you want and get nothing. 

Your effort to farm Kuva and knowledge to know what you want, wont change anything if you roll a mod and get nothing. 

A random guy can roll a mod once and get a better riven than you even if you it 100 times.

So effort and knowledge wont change anything in the end, the process doesnt feel rewarding for me, unless my objective was to have a lot ok Kuva or to know what I need to mod a weapon.

Both skill and effort wont change the outcome.Its random.

[Justice_Ember]

13 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Really?
What stats do you have on it? Mine is Damage, Heat and Flight Speed (love that QoL for the primary!). Might have to give it a rerun, i remember it still having troubles (especially with the primary, the secondary is decently strong). I might need a memory-refresher

Yup, granted, it is a God Riven, 260% Dmg, 130% Multishot and +96% Recoil. Thing is I only use the secondary fire, so either Inaros or Valkyr and straight ahead against hordes of enemies. But before that I already had a 4k dmg Panthera... 

[Azamagon]

On 2017-03-16 at 7:33 PM, (PS4)ElementalLeaf said:

1) You can't claim something is an essential and then add a clause to it stating only under these circumstances.

2) A serration is an essential under all circumstances. A riven either is or is not an essential.

3) And considering those rolls aren't oversaturated, the answer is that it isn't an essential. Also is proven by the fact that a lot of people, some even in this thread itself, have said they just steer clear of rivens entirely. Ergo, it's a non-essential.

4) Under your ideas however, it would become an essential, considering everyone WOULD have a serration/multishot 2.0 on their weapons, and thus even the weaker weapons would shred through almost everything until the end tier game

5) Which would then lead to scaling, which would then lead to god rolls becoming essential 2.0.

6) Which would then defeat the purpose of rivens, which is to make bad weapons great again

1) Yes, yes I can. Due to this simple logic:

Non-meta weapon with a good roll = I can use the weapon on higher level play now!
Non-meta weapons with a meh/bad/horrible roll = The weapon will still stay unused (or weak) in high-level play.

For non-meta weapons to be somewhat useable on high-level play, you thus need a good Riven. In essence: They are essential for low/mid-tier weapons to be viable in high level play.

2) Yes. For great weapons, they are not needed. For bad weapons, they are essential to try and get close to the great weapons' level on high level play.

3) No, that just proves that the RNG gets in the way, disabling them from using the weaker weapons at higher level plays. If there was far less RNG invovled in the stats chosen, I bet you loadsamoneh that people WOULD actually start to bother to get Rivens for their "weak-but-fun" weapons. Not just because it would feel like you have a sense of progression to farm Kuva, but also because it wouldn't reek so much of shady RNG-monetization.

4) As said before, they already ARE essential for the weak weaponry.
EDIT: Or to put it in better a way. The game is not balanced around Rivens, but the Rivens are already balanced around the game, as can be seen with disposition (which is more or less the same anyway, and thus they are essential for highlevel viability for weak weapons).

5) Ummmmm... that scaling is already there... >_> It wouldn't change. Disposition (with some outliers) already keeps eveything in check so something like a Lato won't be better than a Lex Prime, or a Strun Wraith won't be stronger than a Tigris Prime (although, with a good riven, the Strun W could be considered somewhat of a sidegrade, which means that even in such a case, the disposition is working great!)

6) ... you lost me here. So, making the weak weapons great again isn't good, because that would make weak weapons great again, which was the entire point of Rivens?! I don't even...

Edited March 17, 2017 by Azamagon

[Azamagon]

1 minute ago, zzzNitro said:

Yup, granted, it is a God Riven, 260% Dmg, 130% Multishot and +96% Recoil. Thing is I only use the secondary fire, so either Inaros or Valkyr and straight ahead against hordes of enemies. But before that I already had a 4k dmg Panthera... 

Ah, well there you go :D
I mean more with the primary fire. The secondary fire was "ok", even without a Riven. How do you feel the primary handles with that Riven?

[(PSN)ElementalLeaf]

11 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

... you lost me here. So, making the weak weapons great again isn't good, because that would make weak weapons great again, which was the entire point of Rivens?! I don't even...

How does the concept of oversaturation escape you so much?

Rivens make the weapons great right now because they're not guaranteed to be god roll, in fact they're quite rare in god roll form. Hence all of the enemies are not scaled to counter the threat of rivens as if they were all god mode rolls. And a low-tier weapon with a god roll riven can absolutely shred most enemies and be viable for endgame missions as well. Even without god rolls, rivens can enhance weapons in a variety of other creative ways if the roll is just right (for example, my Supra with the +fire rate and +reload speed roll)

If god rolls were oversaturated however, then even the regular enemies, forget endgame enemies, would be scaled to normalize god roll riven mods. Meaning any low/mid tier weapon that doesn't have the god roll has an even greater falloff than it currently does.

Ergo the rivens would be made pointless/useless. You either put on that riven AND with the damage/multishot 2.0 roll to have any chance of it being effective against even normal enemies,or the weapon is even more useless than it was before.

Edited March 16, 2017 by (PS4)ElementalLeaf
Better wording?

[Azamagon]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)ElementalLeaf said:

1) How does the concept of oversaturation escape you so much?

2) They make the weapons great right now
3) because they're not guaranteed, in fact they're quite rare in god mode form.

4) Hence all enemies are not scaled to treat them as if they were all god mode rolls.
5) And a low-tier weapon with a god roll riven can absolutely shred most enemies and be viable for endgame missions as well.

6) If god rolls were oversaturated however, then even the regular enemies, forget endgame enemies, would be scaled to normalize god roll riven mods. Meaning any low/mid tier weapon that doesn't have the god roll has an even greater falloff than it currently does.

Ergo the rivens would be made pointless/useless.

1) If you looked at all my other arguments, you'd see why oversaturation is a complete non-issue.

2) Yes, because of disposition and lucky rolls
3) but no... not cuz of RNG. The RNG is completely irrelevant.

4) Umm... enemies ARE scaled to treat them as if they were all with god mode rolls. Bring your low-tier weapon to a Sortie 3 and see how good it does without a Riven.

5) Yes? So rivens (but only with good/great/perfect rolls) are doing their purpose, what are you trying to say?

6) *sigh* You are just ignoring that Rivens are meant as a form of progression-equalizer tool, I see? Lemme explain:

"Regular" enemies (I assume you mean lowlevel enemies?) can be dealt with, reasonably, using low and mid-tier weapons. Without rivens.
Meta-tier weapons laughs at regular enemies. Rivens or not (Rivens don't even matter much to them)
Riven- and forma-fueled weaponry can (with godrolls) now also laugh at regular enemies.

How is this a problem? No, this doesn't mean that the regular enemies need to be scaled up to normalize the perfected rivens. This is an RPG-esque game, where levels indicates different power progression tiers. Rivens-fueled non-meta weapons and meta-weapons (with or without rivens) laughing at low-level stuff is normal, dare I even say intended
That's like saying "Oh no, the fully epicly geared level 90 WoW players are stomping level 1 enemies like nothing! WE HAVE TO BUFF THOSE LEVEL 1 ENEMIES!". That just won't happen. High-level stuff being overpowered against low-level stuff in an RPG is very normal.

Your worry of oversaturation won't change the balance. What you'd see though, is far more varied weaponry in highlevel play *THE HORRORS!*

If you feel the sense of balance needs a stat-squish or something, that's a completely different topic. But even then, Rivens, regular mods AND the weapons would be balanced towards that ofc, so, still, what's the issue here?

EDIT: Also, did you miss my first post? You'd still be given some variable stat-customization with the Rivens, even when manually picked, part due to my suggestion of how the raw damage would be handled.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Azamagon

[Justice_Ember]

37 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Ah, well there you go :D
I mean more with the primary fire. The secondary fire was "ok", even without a Riven. How do you feel the primary handles with that Riven?

Honestly I never cared for the primary fire, although I do missfire it sometimes I don't really pay attention to it 

[(PSN)ElementalLeaf]

22 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Your worry of oversaturation won't change the balance. What you'd see though, is far more varied weaponry in highlevel play

You know what? There's a real simple way to test this rather than going back and forth with you all day about hypotheticals.

 

Go to the market. And offer someone a riven mod. One that increases damage and multishot. And another that offers increased fire rate and critical chance. Offer them both at the same price. Figure out which one the other play is more enthused for. And when you figure that out, go ahead and apply that understanding to what you'd see most of the rivens reflect if people manually picked what they wanted on their riven.

Now apply THAT to what that would mean for the enemy. Oh, let me apply that for you. It would mean the enemies would get scaled up. Way up. When even the lowest tier weapons shred level 40-50 enemies like its nothing. And *everyone* past a MR of 8 seems to have them.

I wonder what happens next. Oh right. Enemies get buffed.

And now the falloff between weapons with and without GOD ROLL ONLY riven is much higher than it was.

I've literally said this like 5 times now. I don't understand how you haven't grasped it yet.

 

Btw your analogy of WoW fails considering a level 99 would physically have to go to a level 1 area for absolutely no other reason than just cuz. Whereas in Warframe, we end up having to go back to previous regions for a large number of things, including resource farming and alerts. I'm a MR23 and I was on MERCURY just 5 minutes ago because of an alert for a level THREE-SIX mission for Kavat DNA. That's not even the point, the point is that next to everyone will be able to shred high-tier enemies if they aren't a high-tier player.

(Not to mention our weapons/armor only go up to level 30. And with an affinity booster active, that's a whole whopping two missions before they're maxed out. And once they're maxed out, a MR 23 can have the same loadout for said weapon as a MR 2 player. The literal only difference between the two is the mastery ranked locked weapons and likely modding expertise/knowledge and the chances of owning the best mods at the highest ranks. But mods can be purchased for plat anyways so that doesn't make a whole lotta difference assuming the MR 2 has 20-50 dollars to put into the game. Whereas the difference between a level 1 and a level 30 in WoW is a WHOLE LOT different. So yeah.)

Back to the point at hand though, the enemies will of course be buffed when people are just cruising through missions with god roll everything being a normalized standard; and buff isn't just how you're thinking of it, it can come in any form of neutralizers. Previous examples have included the Bursas appearing in missions, the development of Nullifiers, the Corpus dudes that ice skate everywhere nullifying powers, etc.

Oh, and also:

Maybe stop trying to break up my SINGULAR point into a number of STEPS (chosen and separated at your discretion - of course) and try to address it as a SINGULAR point. Because that's what this is. If PEOPLE CAN PICK, then they will NATURALLY gravitate to the STRONGEST LAYOUT available. When that happens, that becomes normalized. When that becomes normalized, enemies get scaled to match, in some form of the other. That doesn't GET normalized with RNG-wall, but without that wall, it does.

Edited March 16, 2017 by (PS4)ElementalLeaf

[Chroia]

On 2/12/2017 at 3:00 AM, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Inb4 they add random boxes for plat

Already exist, to an extent, in the form of mod packs.
Now with a tiny % for a legendary core!
(Remember the market revisit in SotR?)

I'm just waiting for the next iteration, with... oh idk, a tiny chance of a riven mod, maybe?

 

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The skill is in choosing the best stats to aim for that suit the weapon in question.
Basic mechanics knowledge. Not much by way of skill.

The effort is farming kuva and re-rolling.
Loki, solo, watch paint dry for 40 seconds at a time.

Both are rewarded.
RNG is not a reward. It is, at worst best, the possibility of a reward.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Chroia

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Both skill and effort wont change the outcome.Its random.

If you think that rolling a riven once, and rolling it 10 times give you the same chance of getting a 'god' roll, then you don't understand how probability works.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

If you think that rolling a riven once, and rolling it 10 times give you the same chance of getting a 'god' roll, then you don't understand how probability works.

The chances on each roll are not affected by the fact that you rolled 1 million times already. Thats the hole point. I think it should have some way to measure your effort other than roll it 1 million times.

If the chance was 10% to get a good on the first, it isthe same on your 100th roll. I would like the 100th roll to have a better chance because a players had put a lot effort and resources into it, thats all. 

PS: No need to offend me.

[ChuckMaverick]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

If the chance was 10% to get a good on the first, it isthe same on your 100th roll. I would like the 100th roll to have a better chance because a players had put a lot effort and resources into it, thats all.

The problem with that is what constitutes a 'good' roll is subjective.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

PS: No need to offend me.

No offense was intended.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

22 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The problem with that is what constitutes a 'good' roll is subjective.

No offense was intended.

I know, sometimes I try to roll stats on rivens that a lot of people would consider bad. 

Please dont get me wrong, I actually love the Riven system and it is what I do in the game today. Just wanted to have someway to improve chances as you move forward, but if nothing changes... I will keep rolling!!! lol

[Ryunokage]

On 13/03/2017 at 0:54 AM, (PS4)ElementalLeaf said:

Because I don't know what your proposal is. Give everyone god-roll rivens so no one is "gambling" or take away the method entirely, neither of which are viable solutions. Seriously, this appears to be scapegoating at its finest. Rather than say your friend with the gambling addiction is the problem, it is the game and its riven system that is the problem.

Common problem in the modern context, individuals are cast as victims who are bereft of any personal responsibility or capacity for self improvement. Hence the system, or everyone around them should change to accommodate them, regardless of the cost involved to everyone else or the consequences to the individual for whom things are being changed for.

Same flawed logic applied to confer victimhood on others as well. "Safe spaces"/"trigger warnings" in context of PTSD is a good example, psychiatrists general hold to the notion that PTSD is best managed through therapy, of which exposure therapy has proven in literature to be the most effective. By comparison safe spaces and trigger warnings enable avoidance, which in turn worsens a patient's prognosis, while at the same time impacting time remaining for the class to learn.

-----------

Addendum:

With regards to over saturation: Wouldn't the riven affinity system function as a safeguard against the power creep that you describe, more powerful weapons such as the tonkor have a weak riven affinity, vs more idiosyncratic weapons like the Stradavar have a strong affinity.

It stands to reason that the riven affinity mechanic would prevent already powerful weapons from over reaching, while at the same time allowing weaker weapons to be come more viable.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Ryunokage