Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[MadHatHacker]

Tux or go home

[Nokah]

Some hot tips based on what we saw in the preview:

1. Limbo's Banish only goes one way, based on the enemy you targeted. If you target an enemy outside of the Rift, it pops them in and anyone around them in. If you target one inside the Rift, it pops them out and anyone around them out. That means you can flush enemies out of the Rift just as easily as you brought them in, without risking yourself by accidentally banishing a group in when you wanted to take one guy out.
    
2. Having to use your 2 (which, by the way, you were already doing) to make your 1 and 4 useful doesn't actually render any of them garbage. You could even state, up front, Stasis is a better ability than Void Walk. Again, the idea that you use Stasis to crowd control is not a terrible thing, and it appears to have 0 cast time. It's literally instant. And, additionally, because of point 1, you *never* have to worry you're bringing in too many enemies and stopping them unless you have a Cataclysm up and enemies are just running into it willy nilly. If you only play an assassin or otherwise try not to use Cataclysms, you'll benefit from Stasis. If you do long-ranged Stasis sniping, you can pick your punches - flicking the switch on and off to take out enemies who enter your bubble quickly and easily. We clearly see their current cap on the ability can hold up to about 40 projectiles alongside 10 enemies, so the object limit doesn't appear to be restrictively small right now.

You're quite right about some things, but like NightBlitz suggests, they can solve both your Dash problem and your AoE problem by making them tap/hold dichtomies.

Want to dash but not enter/exit the Rift? Tap shift, release, tap again and hold gets you in/out. Tapping normally just gets you the animation or just a normal roll, without effecting your Rift status.

Want to only target one enemy? Tap 1. Want to drag in several? Hold 1. Bam, ez.

Still, I think most of your concerns don't actually quite understand how the new Banish works.

[General_Durandal]

8 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

simple fix they could do for Banish, tap 1 for single target, hold 1 for the aoe. dont have any complaints about that, right?

That would actually be pretty cool.

[TwevOWNED]

1 hour ago, General_Durandal said:

Failure three,

Limbo spams enemies with his melee weapon in the cataclysm,

limbo will need to spam melee for a pretty long time on each enemy.

if they take damage on hit, he'll still need to hit them a lot,

giving plenty of time for more enemies to show up, and possible exceed the limit and break the rift.

Leaving limbo worthless and dead.

Do you know how much damage melee weapons do? I'm also pretty sure I saw stealth multipliers in the demo but we'd have to wait to see. All melee weapons worth using have enough AoE to hit a fair amount of enemies. You will clear out all banished enemies in seconds provided you have an endgame build, and if you don't, why are you fighting endgame enemies and complaining about not being able to kill them?

[General_Durandal]

1 minute ago, Nokah said:

Some hot tips based on what we saw in the preview:

1. Limbo's Banish only goes one way, based on the enemy you targeted. If you target an enemy outside of the Rift, it pops them in and anyone around them in. If you target one inside the Rift, it pops them out and anyone around them out. That means you can flush enemies out of the Rift just as easily as you brought them in, without risking yourself by accidentally banishing a group in when you wanted to take one guy out.
    
2. Having to use your 2 (which, by the way, you were already doing) to make your 1 and 4 useful doesn't actually render any of them garbage. You could even state, up front, Stasis is a better ability than Void Walk. Again, the idea that you use Stasis to crowd control is not a terrible thing, and it appears to have 0 cast time. It's literally instant. And, additionally, because of point 1, you *never* have to worry you're bringing in too many enemies and stopping them unless you have a Cataclysm up and enemies are just running into it willy nilly. If you only play an assassin or otherwise try not to use Cataclysms, you'll benefit from Stasis. If you do long-ranged Stasis sniping, you can pick your punches - flicking the switch on and off to take out enemies who enter your bubble quickly and easily. We clearly see their current cap on the ability can hold up to about 40 projectiles alongside 10 enemies, so the object limit doesn't appear to be restrictively small right now.

You're quite right about some things, but like NightBlitz suggests, they can solve both your Dash problem and your AoE problem by making them tap/hold dichtomies.

Want to dash but not enter/exit the Rift? Tap shift, release, tap again and hold gets you in/out. Tapping normally just gets you the animation or just a normal roll, without effecting your Rift status.

Want to only target one enemy? Tap 1. Want to drag in several? Hold 1. Bam, ez.

Still, I think most of your concerns don't actually quite understand how the new Banish works.

There is a group of 25 people, 5 of them are banished, 4 of the banished people are enemies, 1 of them is a hostage.

Would casting banish again save the hostage?

[Evanescent]

4 hours ago, DarkOvion said:

So... what's left of Limbo?

Limbo is all about about fine control.

Being a scalpel.

Giving it AoE and floaty transitions instead doesn't seem like a scalpel...

Having powers like other frames reduces the uniqueness, and one of the powers being able to lock him out of his other powers seems very detrimental.

He is still about fine control. With stasis you are able to completely control the rift, and banish being aoe does not mean you open entire rooms to the rift. You open small batches of enemies then finish them. You can choose to bring in larger groups with cataclysm. Making the morsel you work on larger suits warframe's horde gameplay better.

He does not have powers like other frames. If you put it that way then all frames with CC are copies of each other.

[KaeseSchnitte]

Your feedback? Garbage.

[General_Durandal]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Cataclysm's final blast takes into account the shields and health of all enemies within the Rift. It scales, that's pretty neat :)

Either you're doing enough damage for that blast to not matter or not enough damage for it to be helpful.

[Shadu]

1 hour ago, Archenius said:

Pretty sure his 4th ability is far from useless considering the fact that Cataclysm can do  that banish can't and thats covering a small area (or a huge area because if your like me you put all range mods in) and press 2 and bam! all the enemies inside the rift would be stopped dead in there tracks Though They did say they are still adding more to Limbo.

True, you can cover a huge area with Cataclysm but we have no idea about the range of banish with range mods. The differences between Cataclysm and Banish like this are that Banish has to be recast to get enemies into the Rift while Cataclysm stays, Cataclysm likely now has a longer stun time and likely does more damage. However during this there is a cap on your 2nd skill, while when using Banish it will be way harder to actually reach that cap compared to Cataclysm where insane amounts of enemies can walk into and allies can shoot all kinds of projectiles into. This results into the 2 abilities only differing a really small amount, basically being Cataclysm staying in the world covering an area, but Cataclysm also puts you into way more risk while not necessarily increasing your killing efficiency.

The two abilities are just too much alike this way, Cataclysm has to be changed a bunch compared to Banish to make it be worth it's own skill slot.
His 2nd skill looks more like his ultimate ability compared to his actual ultimate ability Cataclysm.
It isn't the final design yet though, so I'm looking forward to hearing more changes to his skills.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Shadu

[Nokah]

Just now, General_Durandal said:

There is a group of 25 people, 5 of them are banished, 4 of the banished people are enemies, 1 of them is a hostage.

Would casting banish again save the hostage?

By my understanding, no, it would also drop him out of Banish, but I'd be fine with that.

Mainly because unless those 4 enemies are Stasis-resistant, Stasis is the correct option. (If they're Stasis-resistant, you should probably not have banished them while protecting a hostage.) You pause them, get the hostage out of there, and then either kill them or Banish them. Bam. Ez.

[KaeseSchnitte]

The rift dash is a non-issue 99% of the time. You'll probably have to adjust your playstyle to achive maximum efficiency with it, but that is neither impossible, nor a game-breaker.

As Scott has said, Cataclysm can only pause so many enemies and projectiles, which means that you can overload Cataclysm, which would lock a trolling Limbo out of his abilites for several seconds. it also doesn't stop warframe powers or melee attacks, so plenty of options for teammates to safely murder the S#&$ out of any enemy.

Edited February 18, 2017 by KaeseSchnitte

[General_Durandal]

2 minutes ago, Nokah said:

By my understanding, no, it would also drop him out of Banish, but I'd be fine with that.

Mainly because unless those 4 enemies are Stasis-resistant, Stasis is the correct option. (If they're Stasis-resistant, you should probably not have banished them while protecting a hostage.) You pause them, get the hostage out of there, and then either kill them or Banish them. Bam. Ez.

Let's assume all 24 enemies are level 100 sortie grineer exumus.

I wouldn't have banished them if banish wasn't an AoE.

Hopefully they change that.

 

 

[Nokah]

Personally, I'd be fine with even "Roll is normal, but if you activate a Roll and then hold the button down, you also dash between Planes." It'd work nicely.

But I do think that Limbo's passive should get its own option for a button rebinding. Even if that ends up being a special "Plane Dodge" button and being 'weird' when added to mass frame selection, I also think that Banish should simply give other warframes in the radius a buff that lets them also execute Limbo's planar dash. It'd be a way to make his Banish ability much more team-friendly, and let his team avoid being horribly frustrated by his Banishes.

[KaeseSchnitte]

AoE banish is actually more useful than single-target banish. Allies move around and enemies could stand in your line of sight, which could prevent you from consistenly rift your allies. The new AoE banish makes both problems a non-issue. "Accidentially" rifted enemies are knocked down by Banish and can be frozen. So no problem there at all.

[Nokah]

Grineer Eximi don't actually typically resist CC.

Stasis would still be a valid option. Even if Limbo can't kill them, he can pause them and move the hostage out of their radius before removing them.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Nokah

[KaeseSchnitte]

The "rolling" into the rift is fine, as it gives you the same momentum as usually dodge rolls. If you don't want to dodge out of the rift mid-air, you simply dodge before you sump, so that you roll into the rift. Problem solved.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

They listen to selective feedback. Sub-par Ash "rework" mag "rework" sayrn "rework" 

Limbo imho is the only full rework they got right..from what i see atm. 

The only way DE could have ruin limbo's rework is if they removed him from the game. 

[Nokah]

Just now, KaeseSchnitte said:

The "rolling" into the rift is fine, as it gives you the same momentum as usually dodge rolls. If you don't want to dodge out of the rift mid-air, you simply dodge before you sump, so that you roll into the rift. Problem solved.

The major issue people cite (and one I personally agree with) is that in some situations, exiting the rift for Limbo can open him up to getting royally shafted due to his low Armor and typical focus on power adjustment mods rather than worrying about health, shields, or armor due to his Absolute Defense in the form of Rift Walk.

I do think that it doesn't particularly make sense that Limbo can dash in and out of the Rift at will, but he can't pick when he wants to just do a cool dash and not go in and out.

Beyond that, I *really* like the idea that they could give his dash to his allies as a buff from being banished by him, which would suddenly make him That Cool Frame That Lets You Do Cool Stuff rather than the frame that lets a guy just banish his allies for kicks and make them roll out every 2 seconds.

[General_Durandal]

14 minutes ago, TwevOWNED said:

Do you know how much damage melee weapons do? I'm also pretty sure I saw stealth multipliers in the demo but we'd have to wait to see. All melee weapons worth using have enough AoE to hit a fair amount of enemies. You will clear out all banished enemies in seconds provided you have an endgame build, and if you don't, why are you fighting endgame enemies and complaining about not being able to kill them?

Get's into the game and goes to the simulacrum.

Let's assume he's using the strongest melee weapon.

Fragor Prime, Crushing ruin, primed pressure point, primed fury, primed heavy trauma,

blood rush, body count, true steel, organ shater, berserker.

I'll test on a level 100 bombard exumas.

It took 115 hits to kill it.

He got up and hit me by the 5th hit.

If I didn't have quick thinking, and primed flow, I would have died.

[General_Durandal]

7 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

AoE banish is actually more useful than single-target banish. Allies move around and enemies could stand in your line of sight, which could prevent you from consistenly rift your allies. The new AoE banish makes both problems a non-issue. "Accidentially" rifted enemies are knocked down by Banish and can be frozen. So no problem there at all.

Try banishing a hostage that's surrounded by level 100 enemies.

Banish saves missions right now, adding a manditory AoE to it will not save your hostages,

which it's it's main strength.

[KaeseSchnitte]

The only time you are in "danger" with the rift dash is when rolling out of the rift while bullet jumping, when you are the fastest. So fast, that no enemy can hit you. I don't see any problem with that.

[General_Durandal]

8 minutes ago, Nokah said:

Grineer Eximi don't actually typically resist CC.

Stasis would still be a valid option. Even if Limbo can't kill them, he can pause them and move the hostage out of their radius before removing them.

True, but that extra step of work wouldn't be needed if they didn't add the mandatory AoE.

[KaeseSchnitte]

And? I have melee weapons that oneshot level 100 enemies. combine that with the extra damage of Limbo's 3 and there is no reason why those enemies would be a threat. On the other hand, try to banish a hostage that gets flung around by CC amidst a couple of ancients.

[Nokah]

Luckily timed ancient homing grapples (that would definitely happen, as you most likely just jumped in front of them and into their LoS, and they tend to use that ability first) beg to differ. If you're always in the Void Plane, they can never whack you - but that minor period of vulnerability can result in a grapple, stun, and gangbang.

Also, some enemies are still hitscan. You'd be out of the Rift until your next roll, so if you landed in the wrong spot or failed to chain into a roll again properly, you would likely get a chunk taken out of you, at the very least.

Plus, like I said - there's no real reason Limbo should always *have* to Rift-dash. Even if he gets a separate "passive key" that he holds while he rolls to go in and out that we have to bind ourselves or something, it'd work fine. It'd be better to at least make it toggleable, for sanity and sensicality's sake.

[General_Durandal]

1 minute ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

And? I have melee weapons that oneshot level 100 enemies. combine that with the extra damage of Limbo's 3 and there is no reason why those enemies would be a threat. On the other hand, try to banish a hostage that gets flung around by CC amidst a couple of ancients.

Covert lethality dagger?

Tell me your weapon and build, and i'll test if it's actually so deadly in the simulacrum.

 

Saving hostages is banish's main strength. and AoE would take that away.