Orokin Catalysts/Reactors NEED to Change: A letter to the Game Devs

[Zakalwe]

Cosmetic only sales have been shown to not always be enough.

Take this exampel for instance: http://de.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

Now, obviously, take that with a pinch of salt considering the source, but I can imagine it's true enough.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Would be nice to get dev response after 12 pages on this topic...

I responded on page 4 or 5.

[Ced23Ric]

She did.

So, a quick reminder of what DESteve has to say about this topic:

X is too rare in the game! (Not enough reward alerts! Drop XYZ is just too hard to get!)

We are continually looking at the stats and tuning the drop/rarity tables to give players the best experience. As you can imagine for some things we are offering for sale, we need to be tread carefully between frustrating free players and ruining the value of purchases made by players that can support us.

(See FAQ https://forums.warfr...8-warframe-faq/)

As these threads grow, it's clear that we need to indeed tread carefully between free and paid players, and how our system works in respect to both.

We value what's been said within this thread, and while I can't make any promises, I can say that we are listening!

Discussion and feedback are valuable, and as long as all responses stay on topic, we're happy to keep reading.

I can't comment or disagree with things you've said ("extremely successful" vs "shown to turn people off", etc), becuase I don't have the data to back it up - I just have the ears of the devs and the community to make Warframe work.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[sambarpowder]

An actual stance on the issue would be further appreciated, but I can see why Devs wouldn't do that.

[[DE]Rebecca]

This thread is boiling down to what Steve answered in his FAQ. We are continually looking at the stats, and even more we are reading threads like this.

These threads can and will continue to reflect on our system and pull examples from other games in the F2P market. These threads will be contributed to by free and paid players. Discussion is good, feedback is great, but please remember that these things take time, and no doubt we will be having a conversation in office tomorrow about this system.

All I ask is that if you want to be a part of the discussion, please take time to read the thread; especially read what we've addressed.

Thanks everyone!

[Dr3dd]

this sums up this op post

[Blatantfool]

An actual stance on the issue would be further appreciated, but I can see why Devs wouldn't do that.

The fact that they would even read the discussion in the thread is enough.

[_ZAR_]

Cosmetic only sales have been shown to not always be enough.

Maybe its true but on my oppinion it should work if the game is good people will pay....(i have payed and its not because of the platinum).

- i founded to support this game so i got platinum but the truth is i don't want to buy all with the platinum its no fun I want to earn my stuff like many others ingame because of many reasons. I have had many problems now tried to farm trinity for 3 days blueprits drop really rare and so i only got about 4 blueprints in three day trying to hunt everest 10 times and more a day. So the truth is i am really depressed right now. One time game crashed ok S#&$ happens - the other three time i got a trinity chassi really depressing trying for two day don't know when it will drop and if it drops it will be the part u need WTF (i guess thats just bad and frustrating gamemechanic) ...

From the point of view of a non paying i would maybe just leave the game is that what dev's want i guess not. I think the problem is that essential parts drop really rare and totally random - u can not really grind for them. Let me quote one post of many saying this

You can't actually grind for them. The distribution of those two items in the game are 100% random chance. There is absolutely no player input involved. It is all luck.

That is one of the myraid of reasons people hate the items for the time being. There is a healthy list of reasons people don't seem to like them at this stage.

- My oppinion on this is - the closer u get to the goal (for me it is trinity blueprints) the more luck u need to get the right drop and thats frustrating. So pls change that for the sake of beeing F2P. And make the items grindable with effort not with luck.

(and blueprints are much easier to grind than the two items mentioned in the quote)

Edited February 3, 2013 by _ZAR_

[Blatantfool]

Cosmetic only sales have been shown to not always be enough.

Take this exampel for instance: http://de.slideshare...s/paying-to-win

Now, obviously, take that with a pinch of salt considering the source, but I can imagine it's true enough.

No. It isn't enough.

League of Legends is the most played game of all time, something I didn't even know until a poster from the forums gave me actual proof.

And League of Legends focuses entirely on cosmetic sales, setting everything else they sell the player up to be secondary convenience deals. Riot puts selling anything aside from skins second. Skins are what they want you to buy. Skins are painless in the player experience (Since they don't have even the smallest gameplay impact) and they are something that players will inevitably want to buy as they see great looking new choices line up.

With Riot they want you to play to get better and pay to look sexy doing it. This does them fine, it'd do Warframe fine too. Warframe has all the potential to be good enough to not need sales that impact Gameplay.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

No. It isn't enough.

League of Legends is the most played game of all time, something I didn't even know until a poster from the forums gave me actual proof.

And League of Legends focuses entirely on cosmetic sales, setting everything else they sell the player up to be secondary convenience deals. Riot puts selling anything aside from skins second. Skins are what they want you to buy. Skins are painless in the player experience (Since they don't have even the smallest gameplay impact) and they are something that players will inevitably want to buy as they see great looking new choices line up.

With Riot they want you to play to get better and pay to look sexy doing it. This does them fine, it'd do Warframe fine too. Warframe has all the potential to be good enough to not need sales that impact Gameplay.

LoL is a PvP game, there is little else they can do.

This is a different animal altogether.

[Blatantfool]

LoL is a PvP game, there is little else they can do.

This is a different animal altogether.

No. It isn't. Cosmetics act the same across all games because they have no bearing on gameplay. The game doesn't matter if the item doesn't have anything to do with it. Any game with a purchase overlapping gameplay will get roughly the same response from the players as well, PvE or not. It hasn't really been okay for a year or two for a game to do that sort of thing. F2P games, all of the ones that are meant to be good games at least, are growing away from that point.

Want a PvE game that does the same thing though? Path of Exile. That is all PvE and does the same thing.

Oh, I guess Firefall counts too. They do the same thing as well. Again, they are a PvE focused game.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

No. It isn't. Cosmetics act the same across all games because they have no bearing on gameplay. The game doesn't matter if the item doesn't have anything to do with it. Any game with a purchase overlapping gameplay will get roughly the same response from the players as well, PvE or not. It hasn't really been okay for a year or two for a game to do that sort of thing. F2P games, all of the ones that are meant to be good games at least, are growing away from that point.

I am not discussion the function of the cosmetic i am discussion the method of play.

It's a PvP game...... what are they going to limit? There is nothing to do in those game but fighting each other.

Want a PvE game that does the same thing though? Path of Exile. That is all PvE and does the same thing.

Oh, I guess Firefall counts too. They do the same thing as well. Again, they are a PvE focused game.

All these games are in Beta.

They havent proven anything yet.

Btw, the last time i heard about FF they COMPLETELY changed their leveling system.

[Blatantfool]

I am not discussion the function of the cosmetic i am discussion the method of play.

It's a PvP game...... what are they going to limit? There is nothing to do in those game but fighting each other.

The gameplay has no bearing on why the Cash shop purchases work so well because the purchases themselves are cosmetic and have nothing to do with gameplay. Stop pretending to be stupid, you should be able to understand this.

They focus their cash shop on something that has 0 impact one what the game does and they make ridiculous money. They have the most played game of all time on their hands.

Putting your focus into Cosmetic items can work for any F2P game because the gameplay is not effected by the items. That type of purchase is always percieved as roughly the same thing. A Player would buy a skin is League for the same reasons as a Skin in Path of Exile or a Skin in Firefall or even a Skin in Warframe. Because it FEELS good to look cool when you play a game you like to spend time on.

As the amount of available playable content increases and DE finds ways to make playing for the sake of playing and enjoying the game better the value of Cosmetics will increase. People like to look unique or cool while they enjoy themselves. It is an easy and painless way to support some cool developers and get something you can enjoy out of the deal.

All these games are in Beta.

They havent proven anything yet.

Btw, the last time i heard about FF they COMPLETELY changed their leveling system.

I see, instead of actually replying you choose to cop out on this.

The games are successful already. Both of them. Path of Exile is in Open Beta now, anyone can play. It is essentially a Release. The only thing that will change on its actual launch is a ditching of the 'Beta' title.

Firefall is no different. Players are liberally handed keys to give to others. While the game, like Warframe, is mostly incomplete it already makes plenty of money as well.

Also: Firefall hasn't changed their leveling system in a long time - What they are about to do in beta is actually seperate PvE and PvP progression entirely allowing them to balance each for their needs. After all, PvE can get a little bland with the rigorous restrictions and balance that suits PvP. Even then, the leveling system will probably remain much the same. Regardless, skins have no impact on gameplay so it doesn't really effect their value or sales.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Fenrisulfr]

I'm gonna have to concur with Blatantfool. Firefall has become rather succesful, even though they are still in beta. Warframe isn't much different from it.

[Blatantfool]

I'm gonna have to concur with Blatantfool. Firefall has become rather succesful, even though they are still in beta. Warframe isn't much different from it.

Agreed. I actually hold Warframe to a similar standard as Firefall because I feel it has the same potential, although I keep in mind DE is working for a different feel entirely with their game.

DE is even similar to Red5 in how they talk to the community. DERebecca has been awfully cool to the thread to come in and give input once and then even return at the top of this page to give input again.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Fenrisulfr]

You read my thoughts,mate.

Not to mention that they are both independent studios without some major publisher. That is an important aspect in all of this.

[Mak_Gohae]

The gameplay has no bearing on why the Cash shop purchases work so well because the purchases themselves are cosmetic and have nothing to do with gameplay. Stop pretending to be stupid, you should be able to understand this.

They focus their cash shop on something that has 0 impact one what the game does and they make ridiculous money. They have the most played game of all time on their hands.

Putting your focus into Cosmetic items can work for any F2P game because the gameplay is not effected by the items. That type of purchase is always percieved as roughly the same thing. A Player would buy a skin is League for the same reasons as a Skin in Path of Exile or a Skin in Firefall or even a Skin in Warframe. Because it FEELS good to look cool when you play a game you like to spend time on.

Of course the cash shop has 0 impact on the gameplay... that's my POINT!

In LoL all you do in fight in the same 3 stages endlessly what CAN they monitize without hurting themselves?

Almost nothing. This is why that shop works that way.

As the amount of available playable content increases and DE finds ways to make playing for the sake of playing and enjoying the game better the value of Cosmetics will increase. People like to look unique or cool while they enjoy themselves. It is an easy and painless way to support some cool developers and get something you can enjoy out of the deal.

Right but are we at that point now? No we are not.

This is still closed beta and they JUST added the first few bits or cosmetic stuff.

Let's not treat this game like it's full release, ok? Let's treat it like beta and wait and see.

You folks all remember all the crying over stages, right? And look what happened.

So why dont we all chill and wait to see how this BETA develops?

I see, instead of actually replying you choose to cop out on this.

How does pointing out the TREMENDOUS fact that your examples are also in beta a cop out?

The games are successful already. Both of them. Path of Exile is in Open Beta now, anyone can play. It is essentially a Release. The only thing that will change on its actual launch is a ditching of the 'Beta' title.

Their system have shown to be wildy successful? Do elaborate on this.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Blatantfool]

Of course the cash shop has 0 impact on the gameplay... that's my POINT!

In LoL all you do in fight in the same 3 stages endlessly what CAN they monitize without hurting themselves?

Almost nothing. This is why that shop works that way.

Right but are we at that point now? No we are not.

This is still closed beta and they JUST added the first few bits or cosmetic stuff.

Let's not treat this game like it's full release, ok? Let's treat it like beta and wait and see.

You folks all remember all the crying over stages, right? And look what happened.

So why dont we all chill and wait to see how this BETA develops?

Input is kind of the point of playing a Beta. If people just waited for patches and never discussed or argued about what matters to them it'd be an awfully useless beta.

DERebecca said it. They watch these threads. So I speak my mind in them. I care where the game goes so I speak about what I think about where it is right now.

Also you are still dead wrong about League's gameplay being the reason they prioritize skins. They could sell power or progression. There are knock-off versions of League out there that do things like that. They die a nasty, slow death because people don't want to spend money on games like that.

Same happens to F2P FPS with concepts like that or just about any F2P game really. Players LEAVE at a F2P wall more often then they ready their wallets.

When you overlap money and gameplay just the stigma against that sort of thing alone is enough to convince a lot of people to not pay.

How does pointing out the TREMENDOUS fact that your examples are also in beta a cop out?

Both are Beta with full Cash shops. Warframe is a Beta with a full cash shop. The only weird spot may be the fact that Path of Exile is arguably closer to complete. Of course, when I say 'Full' I mean containing instances of just about everything you can expect to see in the future. skins, frames, weapons and ect.

Firefall and Warframe aren't awfully far apart in completion though. Firefall does have a head start but is largely incomplete.

Their system have shown to be wildy successful? Do elaborate on this.

Counter question: Would you consider Warframe to be pretty successful so far because it makes good money?

Same goes for both of those games. In fact, both featured a founders pack. Path of Exile smashed their goals for Founders pack sales before Closed beta ended and Firefall just recently met their largest milestone.

So yeah, about as successful a Beta could hope to be.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

Input is kind of the point of playing a Beta. If people just waited for patches and never discussed or argued about what matters to them it'd be an awfully useless beta.

DERebecca said it. They watch these threads. So I speak my mind in them. I care where the game goes so I speak about what I think about where it is right now.

Correct, they do read this stuff. This is why they one structured post on the topic is good but every day complaining how you didnt get an orokin thing and how they should change their stuff like LoL is really not needed.

See what happened to PvP discsussions.

Also you are still dead wrong about League's gameplay being the reason they prioritize skins. They could sell power or progression. There are knock-off versions of League out there that do things like that. They die a nasty, slow death because people don't want to spend money on games like that.

This made my laugh sooooo hard. And you know why?

So i mention that because of how their game works they are essentially limited on how they can monitize stuff.

You reply saying im "dead wrong" then go on to say they CAN sell other stuff but they will likely have their game die like other have. So........... you agree with me but for some reason you dont wish to say that.

It's funny.

Same happens to F2P FPS with concepts like that or just about any F2P game really.

When you overlap money and gameplay just the stigma against that sort of thing alone is enough to convince a lot of people to not pay.

It depends on how it's handled.

Both are Beta with full Cash shops. Warframe is a Beta with a full cash shop. The only weird spot may be the fact that Path of Exile is arguably closer to complete. Of course, when I say 'Full' I mean containing instances of just about everything you can expect to see in the future. skins, frames, weapons and ect.

Firefall and Warframe aren't awfully far apart in completion though. Firefall does have a head start but is largely incomplete.

Yes there are all in Beta; my point is that your examples of successful systems come from..... games in Beta. How about using a game that has been in release for a while?

Counter question: Would you consider Warframe to be pretty successful so far because it makes good money?

I have no idea, i have no info on how they are doing. I dont think anyone has any info on this. On the leader board the last time i checked the account number was somewher in the 77ks, they have teams translating the game into several languages and i guess some one can count the number of founders on the board vs the folks that arent.

Same goes for both of those games. In fact, both featured a founders pack. Path of Exile smashed their goals for Founders pack sales before Closed beta ended and Firefall just recently met their largest milestone.

So yeah, about as successful a Beta could hope to be.

What was the milestones for?

Were they to show profit or were they showing a number they needed to reach to continue work for X amount of time?

[Blatantfool]

Correct, they do read this stuff. This is why they one structured post on the topic is good but every day complaining how you didnt get an orokin thing and how they should change their stuff like LoL is really not needed.

See what happened to PvP discsussions.

But what changes? The only place money actually overlaps gameplay in Warframe is the Orokin items. The rest of it is pretty much all good. Warframe already sells a lot of the same things in the same ways.

This made my laugh sooooo hard. And you know why?

So i mention that because of how their game works they are essentially limited on how they can monitize stuff.

You reply saying im "dead wrong" then go on to say they CAN sell other stuff but they will likely have their game die like other have. So........... you agree with me but for some reason you dont wish to say that.

It's funny.

This made me go back and read. Had me wondering if I misunderstood you.

When I responded I chose to respond specifically to the idea that 'Riot is limited' when really they aren't. They really could just ruin their game trying to make a buck. They don't because opting NOT to sell that power is a wiser choice.

So yeah, I guess in a bizzarre way we did end up on the same page with this. Funny how that works. For what it is worth, I find this amusing too.

It depends on how it's handled.

Agreed. The Orokin items are more proof of this. Right now they cause a fuss because the method to get them in game is just awful. I keep refferring to it as 'winning the alert slot machine' for a reason.

But if there was suddenly some method that allowed players to earn an Orokin within the window of a week if they really put in some time and effort - well, suddenly the Orokin items are no different then a booster. Purest convenience. If all you had to do was play your &#! off to earn them then buying them isn't so bad.

When RNG hands the items out it feels much worse then if Gameplay itself earns it.

Normally I complain about the Orokin system as if I want it gone. I'd get behind a system I felt fixes them instead if I could see it as being adequate.

Yes there are all in Beta; my point is that your examples of successful systems come from..... games in Beta. How about using a game that has been in release for a while?

I used Beta PvE examples because they are both Beta and PvE. I felt that was as fair as I could draw examples. Especially since both of them are making pretty good money already.

I have no idea, i have no info on how they are doing. I dont think anyone has any info on this. On the leader board the last time i checked the account number was somewher in the 77ks, they have teams translating the game into several languages and i guess some one can count the number of founders on the board vs the folks that arent.

I would have been cool with your opinion on this one but I understand what you are getting at. I asked that because, well, I happen to figure Warframe is doing alright for themselves. They have a lot of weird issues and I'm seeing contention about their cash shop daily. (Although that isn't entirely true. Most of the fuss is just the orokin items or slots. I focus on Orokin items when Is peak about this stuff since it is my belief selling slots isn't as disruptive to players.)

What was the milestones for?

Were they to show profit or were they showing a number they needed to reach to continue work for X amount of time?

I don't know with Path of Exile, although I think theres was highballing it. They even had a one thousand dollar pack on sale and I can remember people where actually buying it. Wasn't as involved in that Beta.

Firefalls was something like 750k packs sold from what I remember(As opposed to a number total) and I believe the majority of the packs they sold where the 50 and 100$ packs.

But that still reeks of success for a beta, does it not?

Edited February 3, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

But what changes? The only place money actually overlaps gameplay in Warframe is the Orokin items. The rest of it is pretty much all good. Warframe already sells a lot of the same things in the same ways.

Agreed. The Orokin items are more proof of this. Right now they cause a fuss because the method to get them in game is just awful. I keep refferring to it as 'winning the alert slot machine' for a reason.

But if there was suddenly some method that allowed players to earn an Orokin within the window of a week if they really put in some time and effort - well, suddenly the Orokin items are no different then a booster. Purest convenience. If all you had to do was play your &#! off to earn them then buying them isn't so bad.

When RNG hands the items out it feels much worse then if Gameplay itself earns it.

Normally I complain about the Orokin system as if I want it gone. I'd get behind a system I felt fixes them instead if I could see it as being adequate.

There is no overlap, the orokin things are given in alert missions. The rarety of the items doesnt change anything gameplaywise. The game doesnt stop because you dont have supercharged items or frames. You can still play the game. I know some folks want to play at full potential and all that jazz but you can in fact STILL play without that stuff. Things might be slightly more difficult but what's wrong with that?

I am leveling now a Gorgon which isnt supercharged and when fighting Kril i ran out of ammo probably cause my Gorgon wasnt doing it's max damage or it could be that the other players also didnt have super charged stuff, etc, etc. How did i solved that? I bought extra ammo boxes. For 1k, easy to get from selling a few mods, i get full ammo which kept me in the fight.

Not having super charged stuff isnt the end of the game.

I used Beta PvE examples because they are both Beta and PvE. I felt that was as fair as I could draw examples. Especially since both of them are making pretty good money already.

I don't know with Path of Exile, although I think theres was highballing it. They even had a one thousand dollar pack on sale and I can remember people where actually buying it. Wasn't as involved in that Beta.

Firefalls was something like 750k packs sold from what I remember(As opposed to a number total) and I believe the majority of the packs they sold where the 50 and 100$ packs.

But that still reeks of success for a beta, does it not?

Well, yes, they are getting money but i think of success as gaining profit. If the the milestones were for, "If we reach this point we are breaking even." and they do that's cool. But just breaking even isnt what companies strive for. Breaking even as a goal it's mostly when you fail and you dont want to end at a lost, these folks want come cash in their bank.

[MJ12]

No. It isn't enough.

League of Legends is the most played game of all time, something I didn't even know until a poster from the forums gave me actual proof.

And League of Legends focuses entirely on cosmetic sales, setting everything else they sell the player up to be secondary convenience deals. Riot puts selling anything aside from skins second. Skins are what they want you to buy. Skins are painless in the player experience (Since they don't have even the smallest gameplay impact) and they are something that players will inevitably want to buy as they see great looking new choices line up.

With Riot they want you to play to get better and pay to look sexy doing it. This does them fine, it'd do Warframe fine too. Warframe has all the potential to be good enough to not need sales that impact Gameplay.

Riot Games spent less than 1 million dollars developing LoL. They have a massive playerbase which, even at the BF:Heroes "Non-Pay To Win" scale of $.25 per player, would give them far more than required to make that investment back.

Looking at an AAA game engine and its costs, you're looking at easily 5 times or more for developing Warframe, which uses a proprietary engine, does something literally nobody has tried before in this current generation of games (procedural map generation died out back in the 90s), and there was an interview on how they wanted to have weekly or biweekly content dumps with new tilesets every month or so. This plus how LoL has lower system requirements and thus a broader potential playerbase.

LoL has a lot of advantages in terms of structure that let it monetize a lot less, and the PvP requirement means they need player goodwill far more than a game which you can play co-op with bros/broettes, which means they can monetize the game a lot less. I keep saying this and people keep pointing to LoL and ignore all the different circumstances.

[DetergentPod]

That's exactly the point. The first part of that paragraph directly contradicts the second part of it and I'm not sure how you fail to realize that.

In LoL you're paying for convience and cosmetics and that's all. People don't feel like they have to spend money to be able to play the game. But once they do start playing it and like it then they think hey..this champion I like has a new skin that I also like, may as well support the devs and throw $10 at them for the skin.

For example, if you had to pay money to unlock half the mastery trees in LoL, that would basically be the equivalent of the orokin items. Except even then that's a stretch because the mastery points in LoL don't have nearly as big of a role in the game as orokin items do In Warframe. Not nearly as many people would be playing that game today if they had to pay to unlock things like that.

That's exactly the kind of business model people are saying works which is in direct opposition to how it is in Warframe currently.

This is just the start what they need to do is remake the whole XP for Rank system. Instead of getting XP only when your warframe or weapon rank you get it from completing mission and alert as well. Add more weapons that require higher rank but with the ability to buy it early with plat. That basically what you should do for a shooter game with guns. Make 1 version of the gun be buyable with ingame money but requires certain level/ranks and make another version where it can be brought with real money at any rank/level. That way people would have to work for the gun they want or spent a few bucks for it. The gun itself then have to be a blue print if you brought it with ingame credit so then they gotta farm for the componet yet again. Forcing them to play more. Then after they got all the parts they can either wait for it to finish or rush it with plat. Afterward they gotta rank it up. Hence more playing require and getting the mods for it as well.

Warframe blue print are brought with ingame credit should stay the way it is. Then there the plat option of getting it and the option of buying the individual part with plat (helmet, chassis, system) but make it cheaper so that when you add it up it won't equal or exceed the amount needed to completely buy the warframe. That way people can decide whether they'll spent more buying the completed warframe or the individual parts and farm for component or just farm from bosses.

This promote the idea of keeping the player interested and glued to the game and at the same time promotes buying Plat for all those lazy people out there.

[f3llyn]

The gameplay has no bearing on why the Cash shop purchases work so well because the purchases themselves are cosmetic and have nothing to do with gameplay. Stop pretending to be stupid, you should be able to understand this.

They focus their cash shop on something that has 0 impact one what the game does and they make ridiculous money. They have the most played game of all time on their hands.

Putting your focus into Cosmetic items can work for any F2P game because the gameplay is not effected by the items. That type of purchase is always percieved as roughly the same thing. A Player would buy a skin is League for the same reasons as a Skin in Path of Exile or a Skin in Firefall or even a Skin in Warframe. Because it FEELS good to look cool when you play a game you like to spend time on.

As the amount of available playable content increases and DE finds ways to make playing for the sake of playing and enjoying the game better the value of Cosmetics will increase. People like to look unique or cool while they enjoy themselves. It is an easy and painless way to support some cool developers and get something you can enjoy out of the deal.

I see, instead of actually replying you choose to cop out on this.

The games are successful already. Both of them. Path of Exile is in Open Beta now, anyone can play. It is essentially a Release. The only thing that will change on its actual launch is a ditching of the 'Beta' title.

Firefall is no different. Players are liberally handed keys to give to others. While the game, like Warframe, is mostly incomplete it already makes plenty of money as well.

Also: Firefall hasn't changed their leveling system in a long time - What they are about to do in beta is actually seperate PvE and PvP progression entirely allowing them to balance each for their needs. After all, PvE can get a little bland with the rigorous restrictions and balance that suits PvP. Even then, the leveling system will probably remain much the same. Regardless, skins have no impact on gameplay so it doesn't really effect their value or sales.

More importantly, skins are easy to produce as "content". Compared to writing up an entire new class/frame or an entire new area with a new title set it takes a very little amount of time to make a skin for a warframe or a weapon. Which is a strenght of the system. Riot can release 3 or 4 new skins a month (if not more) along with a new champion and the model works out very well.

Edited February 3, 2013 by f3llyn

[f3llyn]

There is no overlap, the orokin things are given in alert missions. The rarety of the items doesnt change anything gameplaywise. The game doesnt stop because you dont have supercharged items or frames. You can still play the game. I know some folks want to play at full potential and all that jazz but you can in fact STILL play without that stuff. Things might be slightly more difficult but what's wrong with that?

I am leveling now a Gorgon which isnt supercharged and when fighting Kril i ran out of ammo probably cause my Gorgon wasnt doing it's max damage or it could be that the other players also didnt have super charged stuff, etc, etc. How did i solved that? I bought extra ammo boxes. For 1k, easy to get from selling a few mods, i get full ammo which kept me in the fight.

Not having super charged stuff isnt the end of the game.

Well, yes, they are getting money but i think of success as gaining profit. If the the milestones were for, "If we reach this point we are breaking even." and they do that's cool. But just breaking even isnt what companies strive for. Breaking even as a goal it's mostly when you fail and you dont want to end at a lost, these folks want come cash in their bank.

I beg to differ. I feel no reason to play the game if I cannot have access to half my skill tree or a weapons power. My warframe is level 30 and my weapons are all 20+. What reason to do I have to keep playing? Effectively, the fact that I have to reply on 3x rng roles means there is no progression for me which means I get to twiddle my thumbs and watch a forum hoping for a ? alert to give me what I need to play more. I honestly do not get why you're so unwilling to even admit the system might have some rather large flaws.

Having to watch a forum so I know when to play is just silly. I've never seen anything like it any game ever, pretty much. It's the anti-thesis of fun. What do you expect people to do once the game becomes more popular? If it ever makes it that far.

Edit: Speak of the devil.. there was an ? alert that gave a catalyst and WHAT DO YOU KNOW?! It's in an area you'd likely need a catalyst to get to in the first place. What a joke.

Edited February 4, 2013 by f3llyn