Asphaltwings Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Lets be honest, Hydroid is one of the less played frames, and doesn't seem to particularly great at anything. The question is does he need a complete rework or should he just be buffed? Who deserves a rework first, Hydroid or Oberon? I don't have any great ideas for how Hydroid could be improved at this point, apart from replacing his ability to become a puddle, which is just boring. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CherryPauper Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) I disagree about him not being particularly great at anything. He's great at camping / locking down a point and I couldn't have solo farmed polymer bundles and other resources as quick without him (I don't use Nekros since the drop chance of loot is 54% while Hydroid is 100%). I've done several 2 hour-long survivals with him without coming close to dying. But I would agree that he is very much a situational frame and not quite great all round. I do agree that he needs to be reworked, but I'd honestly would rather see an AtlASS rework first. Everyone craps on Hydroid and Oberon who can actually be useful, but no one bats an eye at the worst frame in the game: AtlASS. Edited March 21, 2017 by CherryPauper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echorion Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, CherryPauper said: I disagree about him not being particularly great at anything. He's great at camping / locking down a point and I couldn't have solo farmed polymer bundles as quick without him. I do agree that he needs to be reworked, but I'd honestly would rather see an AtlASS rework first. Everyone craps on Hydroid and Oberon who can actually be useful, but no one bats an eye at the worst frame in the game: AtlASS. There are way better choices for the few things he can do though. Also Hydroid is without a doubt worse than Atlas, if you are going by the fact no one plays him it's because everyone hates the method of getting him. He is worse than Oberon though. Edited March 21, 2017 by Echorion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Graysmog Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, CherryPauper said: I disagree about him not being particularly great at anything. He's great at camping / locking down a point and I couldn't have solo farmed polymer bundles as quick without him. I would agree that he is very much a situational frame and not quite great all round. I do agree that he needs to be reworked, but I'd honestly would rather see an AtlASS rework first. Everyone craps on Hydroid and Oberon who can actually be useful, but no one bats an eye at the worst frame in the game: AtlASS. That's because Atlas can tank, deal sweet damage and CC with his Augment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphaltwings Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, CherryPauper said: I do agree that he needs to be reworked, but I'd honestly would rather see an AtlASS rework first. Everyone craps on Hydroid and Oberon who can actually be useful, but no one bats an eye at the worst frame in the game: AtlASS I think Atlas needs a buff more than anything. The reason I'm curious for this discussion is that the next two primed frames will be male if it follows trend. I think Oberon/Hydroid could be candidates for it, but they both need to be... Adjusted... Before that comes into fruition imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoncat20 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 In due time my friend, in due time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Prime Pedestal Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 #soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvaDreams Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Asphaltwings said: I think Atlas needs a buff more than anything. The reason I'm curious for this discussion is that the next two primed frames will be male if it follows trend. I think Oberon/Hydroid could be candidates for it, but they both need to be... Adjusted... Before that comes into fruition imo. Yes the one punch frame that can mow through Sorties even Eximus ones as if they were a lvl 1 grineer needs a buff..... Edited March 21, 2017 by SilvaDreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sziklamester Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Frames which need reworks and buffs too. Some of them could be easily better if given some qol boosts others like zephyr needs 1 new ability and merge 2 ability into one. Hydroid needs buffs and some tweaks on his abilities otherwise a fun to use frame. Oberon is my main and he needs rather buffs and tweaks on his abilities than a full rework. Banshee needs some tweaks on her armor otherwise good. Limbo just needed some tweaks and let other use their frames inside the rift so currently no comment on him. Atlas need a change in abilities and need to be more tanky. Other not mentioned frames are need general tweaks and qol changes like trinity. Saryn, Mag, Loki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvaDreams Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Sziklamester said: Frames which need reworks and buffs too. Some of them could be easily better if given some qol boosts others like zephyr needs 1 new ability and merge 2 ability into one. Hydroid needs buffs and some tweaks on his abilities otherwise a fun to use frame. Oberon is my main and he needs rather buffs and tweaks on his abilities than a full rework. Banshee needs some tweaks on her armor otherwise good. Limbo just needed some tweaks and let other use their frames inside the rift so currently no comment on him. Atlas need a change in abilities and need to be more tanky. Other not mentioned frames are need general tweaks and qol changes like trinity. Saryn, Mag, Loki. How does Atlas need to be more tanky? He has good Up and armor as is but more importantly he is immune to damage during his Landslide attack which is his namesake to being the one-punch frame. As for the rest I mostly agree but Banshee is fine, she needs the counter of being squishy with her ability to sonar spam, resonating quake build and the fact that all her weapons are silent due to her passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Graysmog Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said: How does Atlas need to be more tanky? He has good Up and armor as is but more importantly he is immune to damage during his Landslide attack which is his namesake to being the one-punch frame. As for the rest I mostly agree but Banshee is fine, she needs the counter of being squishy with her ability to sonar spam, resonating quake build and the fact that all her weapons are silent due to her passive. Atlas' real problem is that his CC and Area Denial abilities just don't work as well as they should, and even when they do, they are far too limited. Seriously, ONE wall? JUST. ONE. That you can't do anything to. You can't increase it's width, or it's height, or the size of the boulder. Nothing. That's frekin' bogus. It can barely cover a tiny entrance to a hallway as it is, and is only marginally better with it's Augment, as at least you get three. You can't even repeatedly increase it's Health like you can with Snowglobe, so no matter what, it's pretty useless. I may actually use it if it could have a hole in the middle you could only shoot and see through, but enemies would still hit, so it could at least act as mobile cover like it's supposed to. Edited March 21, 2017 by (XB1)Graysmog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaUrchins Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 No. Some frames need to be the underdogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphaltwings Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said: Yes the one punch frame that can mow through Sorties even Eximus ones as if they were a lvl 1 grineer needs a buff..... He has a single great ability, when I said he could do with a buff I didn't mean a universal upgrade, sorry if I made it sound that way. His other abilities are lackluster. If you tweak them to be cohesive or just function in a better way he could be far more enjoyable and maybe even worth the horrible mission you have to farm for him. 40 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said: No. Some frames need to be the underdogs. Why though? I don't think all frames should be capable of seven hour endurance runs or anything. But I do feel that they should all be perfectly viable for their role in a sortie, there is no need for a meta surrounding that level of gameplay. I understand some frames have a higher skillcap than others that separates players who can really play those frames from players who are just testing them out or play them casually. Is it really that unreasonable to want all frames to be viable and effective for what their kit intends? Edited March 21, 2017 by Asphaltwings for clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volinus7 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Asphaltwings said: Why though? I don't think all frames should be capable of seven hour endurance runs or anything. But I do feel that they should all be perfectly viable for their role in a sortie, there is no need for a meta surrounding that level of gameplay. I understand some frames have a higher skillcap than others that separates players who can really play those frames from players who are just testing them out or play them casually. Is it really that unreasonable to want all frames to be viable and effective for what their kit intends? You cannot have both diversity and balance in one package, they counteract each other. Perfect balance=Only need one frame because every frame has the same capability. Diversity=Each frame has its own selling point but cannot do everything. Dedicated role or one trick pony. Still among a pool of diverse abilities METAs exist. If it's not highly balanced, underdogs always exist. I didn't know that this game has skill cap lol. Edited March 21, 2017 by Volinus7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKurtiStryke Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 hydroid rework is already planned,confirmed by De. after limbo's rework, the next rework it's zephyr or hydroid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaUrchins Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Asphaltwings said: I do feel that they should all be perfectly viable for their role in a sortie Hydroid is perfectly viable for any sortie mission, just hide in pool and wait for the rest of the squad to do everything. In an interception it can even be a good thing. We got pretty much balanced situation where we have good frames and bad or more politically correct fun frames. For example, Trinity is good at healing, Oberon is bad I mean fun, Frost is invincible for defense and there's also Volt who is bad at it fun at it. Loki and Nyx, wanna-be tank Ice Chroma and Wukong, and the list goes on and on. Edited March 21, 2017 by SeaUrchins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharkPot Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Try using a max speed cast build and max range build and then ask if Hydroid needs a rework. If you're lazy lemme say this to you, Hydroid when used as a standard farm build is as pointless old desecrate nekros whose only point was resources.Step away from the standard build. Instead why not invest in full cc and invincibility frames while moving and use use his augments that allow quick healing and removal of armor completely. He is pretty good solo frame imo. Have done 40 min runs no probs without using the new cheese metas that people are crazy about. People cry rework cause something that isn't a 1 press death machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphaltwings Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Volinus7 said: You cannot have both diversity and balance in one package, they counteract each other. Perfect balance=Only need one frame because every frame has the same capability. Diversity=Each frame has its own selling point but cannot do everything. Dedicated role or one trick pony. Still among a pool of diverse abilities METAs exist. If it's not highly balanced, underdogs always exist. I didn't know that this game has skill cap lol. It doesn't need to be highly balanced though, does it? Some frames will excel beyond reason at what they're good at (Loki, Terminator Nyx [RIP], etc), others can just get the job done. What's the point in having frames that aren't capable of contributing in an effective way to a level of the average players gameplay, It can put a downer on playing. Also, of course there is a skillcap, takes more skill to play Loki properly than Rhino, doesn't it? The disparity isn't like other games, but it's there. 12 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said: Hydroid is perfectly viable for any sortie mission, just hide in pool and wait for the rest of the squad to do everything. In an interception it can even be a good thing. We got pretty much balanced situation where we have good frames and bad or more politically correct fun frames. For example, Trinity is good at healing, Oberon is bad I mean fun, Frost is invincible for defense and there's also Volt who is bad at it fun at it. Loki and Nyx and the list goes on and on. I actually laughed at this, because it's true. As I said above to Volinus7, I feel that every frame should be capable of contributing in a meaningful way to a team at the average level of gameplay. Why have frames that are outclassed to the point they're not even worth playing in the role because they're subpar at it and there is a far superior choice? I'm not asking for every frame to be god tier at what it does, just capable. Edited March 21, 2017 by Asphaltwings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharkPot Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Asphaltwings said: It doesn't need to be highly balanced though, does it? Asks for a rework, every frame should be balanced. But Doesn't need to be highly balanced. I am dissapointed in myself to actually think you had any clue what you were talking about. Edited March 21, 2017 by SharkPot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphaltwings Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, SharkPot said: Asks for a rework, every frame should be balanced. But Doesn't need to be highly balanced. I am dissapointed in myself to actually think you had any clue what you ere talking about. Wow, Rude. I never said every frame has to be equal, I think that there shouldn't be frames so subpar that they aren't even a viable option. In that sense there should be no real underdogs. Of course you're not going to have every frame capable of clearing defences like Banshee, or killing level 4000 enemies in survivals like Saryn. But every frame should be able to at least stay viable with what their kit intends to a reasonable degree, if they're meant for CC they should be able to CC effectively, if they're meant to be tanky than they should be able to survive effectively against tough enemies, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xgomme Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Asphaltwings said: Wow, Rude. I never said every frame has to be equal, I think that there shouldn't be frames so subpar that they aren't even a viable option. In that sense there should be no real underdogs. Of course you're not going to have every frame capable of clearing defences like Banshee, or killing level 4000 enemies in survivals like Saryn. But every frame should be able to at least stay viable with what their kit intends to a reasonable degree, if they're meant for CC they should be able to CC effectively, if they're meant to be tanky than they should be able to survive effectively against tough enemies, etc. Oberon is meant to be polyvalent, and guess what ? Same for Hydroid, you can cc hard, heal status, heal, loot, rip armor... And you can't find a proper use ? The direction of those frames are nice, the only problem are some clunky/slow spell mechanics, (Hydroid should be more mobile while in puddle, or let us use 2 to move) But you can actually achieve great things with those (especially if you play on a level where "you can clear def with Banshee" (I guess you talk about SQ ?) Edited March 21, 2017 by Xgomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharkPot Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Asphaltwings said: Wow, Rude. I never said every frame has to be equal, I think that there shouldn't be frames so subpar that they aren't even a viable option. In that sense there should be no real underdogs. Of course you're not going to have every frame capable of clearing defences like Banshee, or killing level 4000 enemies in survivals like Saryn. But every frame should be able to at least stay viable with what their kit intends to a reasonable degree, if they're meant for CC they should be able to CC effectively, if they're meant to be tanky than they should be able to survive effectively against tough enemies, etc. There will always be someone better than others. You don't expect banshee to out survive chroma when getting hit with consequtive rockets, You don't expect Saryn to be out damaged by a Loki and list goes on. There is no balance , There never will be. players will find a new meta and people who blindly follow meta will follow it as well. When people play something non meta people feel its inadequate, Nor does that mean its bad, nor does that mean it has no place in game. Its just that it Isn't for you. Also CC can't be quantified as this cc is better than that frames cc as every cc has its place. Loki's cc is useless against melee enemies, Booben's cc is useless on enemies that don't rush you like bombards etc. Same was about Hydroid his cc is a bit slow, But is cc is grossly underestimated by most people. As i said try a max speed cast and max range build and then come back asking for a rework. DE is always pressurized into doing things that's not needed cuz players ask it. Doesn't matter if it needs to be done. Edited March 21, 2017 by SharkPot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphaltwings Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 51 minutes ago, Xgomme said: Oberon is meant to be polyvalent, and guess what ? Same for Hydroid, you can cc hard, heal status, heal, loot, rip armor... And you can't find a proper use ? The direction of those frames are nice, the only problem are some clunky/slow spell mechanics, (Hydroid should be more mobile while in puddle, or let us use 2 to move) But you can actually achieve great things with those (especially if you play on a level where "you can clear def with Banshee" (I guess you talk about SQ ?) 1. If something is capable of doing several jobs it should be able to do them, obviously to a lesser extent than frames dedicated to that kind of gameplay, but they should still be functional enough to cope in day to day team gameplay without becoming a burden (I do enjoy playing Oberon tbh, but I don't consider him valuable enough to take in a team mission). 2. Fixing clunky spell mechanics and making abilities synergize better or just better all together is what reworks are for. It's upto DE to decide if a frame needs an extreme rework or a little one, and we give our feedback based on their efforts. 3. Yes, I was talking about SQ, but i'm yet to see a Hydroid being used in a group like that. 57 minutes ago, SharkPot said: There will always be someone better than others. You don't expect banshee to out survive chroma when getting hit with consequtive rockets, You don't expect Saryn to be out damaged by a Loki and list goes on. There is no balance , There nver will be. players will find a new meta and people who blindly follow meta will follow it as well. When people play something non meta people feel its inadequate, Nor does that mean its bad, nor does that mean it has no place in game. Its just that it Isn't for you. That is why we have these discussions, so we can understand things better. I personally think Hydroid and Oberon need a little love, if you don't feel that's true, that's cool, your experiences are different to mine and I probably haven't explored the frame as much as you because i'm initially put off by it's mechanics. I'm definitely going to explore him a little more after having this discussion, but I don't think my opinion on the puddle will change and Hydroid really has such a cool theme, I want to like him, but I'm having troubles at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakosta_Kai Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Oberon and Hydroid really punish mistakes and bad luck . They both need some tuning and skills re-tailored. If Hydroid had some form of decent defense to ranged attacks that wasn't Undertow, I don't think players would be complaining like they do about him (well...that and the fact that all his skills are lackluster without their augments). Oberon's Renewal doesn't heal quick enough for the animation time and should have gotten the self revive baked back in. Hallowed Ground is simply terrible, imo, and needs to be re-worked. I'm still trying to figure out why Limbo got the re-work before them or Zephyr tbh. Limbo is beastly now, just not entirely group friendly (friendly as opposed to useful)... His changes appear to be making him more beastly and just as unfriendly to most groups. Atlas, otoh, is fine... I don't dig the frenetic brawling style, but those that like him seem to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharkPot Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Zephyr doesn't even need a rework and nor does Limbo. Anyone who has actually spent time with those frames know it very well. If anything if I had to award to being the strongest frame i would give it to Zephyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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