Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[Ceadeus]

2 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Fair enough. I was just pointing out as well that Smite scales in % (albeit not the main target).

This was reserved for someone else, not yours.

My bad. But yes, generally flat heals are better anyways.

Exactly. You can't compare trinity to oberon in the first place, because they have different  "specialties." Trinity, healer. Oberon, jack of all trades. You can compare 2 stealth frames (Ivara vs Loki) under the same category, but never in different categories.

And, yes, situational.

Then why construct statement like that in the first place?

I know EV scales. Sadly, enemy armor scales grossly as well. This is why CC becomes better later on.

Energy plates are cheap and spammable. Zenurik gives enough energy in between casts. Others may be running energy siphon (pubs). I could bring energy-replenishing syndicates (Entropy or Blight). Again, I get the energy argument, but there are band-aids/hole fillers for that.

I could just run behind a crate and cast reckoning. With enough range I can affect an entire room (just not open maps). Trinity requires you to aim, meaning showing a portion of yourself to die.

This is why you have a team to cover you, right? Same with trinity, but Oberon, again, affects more in a shorter amount of time (cast-wise, depends on enemy count really).

 

I said that to preface what I said after.  And as Oberon's CC becomes more useful, his minimal damage and range as well as the relatively small heals become much more noticeable, where Trinity still performs the same role as she did at the start, she's still dealing proportional damage, she's still restoring her team's health and energy, and she's still locking down however many targets she can manage in her cast times.  She doesn't fall off nearly as hard.

[Hopakkiin]

Just now, InsanityKey said:

No my argument is that he's being called a tank when he's not.  Someone who can recover quickly when left alone is not a tank.

He can also recover while taking damage. He might just be durable and not a tank. He also boasts certain CRC abilities. Just like a tank in real life.

[Ironlixivium]

That's not how to build for EV.... A good EV build has negative duration, high strength and good range.

[aligatorno]

7 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

 and she's still locking down however many targets she can manage in her cast times.  She doesn't fall off nearly as hard.

Meaning two targets at most at the same time. Oberon has no limit of enemies that he can CC with his 1 or 4. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by aligatorno

[p3z1]

3 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

I said that to preface what I said after.  And as Oberon's CC becomes more useful, his minimal damage and range as well as the relatively small heals become much more noticeable, where Trinity still performs the same role as she did at the start, she's still dealing proportional damage, she's still restoring her team's health and energy, and she's still locking down however many targets she can manage in her cast times.  She doesn't fall off nearly as hard.

Range is not a problem for some builds (e.g. max efficiency/range). Sure, the heal goes to hell, but enemies OHK you at some point anyways, no matter how tough you are. Trinity shares the same problem. Sure her damage scales better than the former Oberon build mentioned, but can it keep her alive as well for long? Trinity depends on her abilities to survive, while Oberon has SOME decent survivability built in (better armor and health/shields). Trinity requires ENERGY to survive, Oberon requires LESS of it.

Of course Trinity will not fall faster than Oberon in terms of scaling, because she has a DEDICATED role. She has dedicated heals, Oberon doesn't. Oberon has better CC to compensate, something you CAN'T disprove.

Overall, Trinity is better than Oberon in the heals department (albeit situational, because Phoenix Renewal), but CC department? Good luck persuading me that Trinity is better than that compared to Oberon. Tanking is better on trinity because she has TANK skills that are just plain better than Oberon. But, again, at one point enemies will OHK anyone, so the point is kinda moot.

[Chewarette]

14 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

He's had issues with Reckoning since he first came out, if you recast too quick enemies just won't be affected by any of the CC, they'll take the damage (not that it matters) but that's it, otherwise they'll still just come at you as normal.

Yeah maybe. Weird than I never felt it but why not.

Still, you didn't answer about my first question : How is the 75% damage reduction from Trinity a "literal invincibility" provided to teammates ? That's not even an "approximate invincibility" nor a "theoretical invincibility", so "literal"...

Edited May 9, 2017 by Chewarette

[Ceadeus]

4 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

1-dude. IT GIVES YOU A GODDAMN RES AND/OR BLEEDOUT TIME. how are these "nothing"? are you really that stupid? and before those levels oberon can keep you alive just fine.

2-its. not. small. you are just @(*()$ horrible appearently. 25 meters is around  two rooms in this game, if not more. and its @(*()$ base range and range mods exist. 

3-the thing is your arguments of him being too weak is $&*&*#(%&. each and every single one of them. hes very much perfect where he is now. so when someone says theyre dissatisfied with this rework are either wanting a super broken op frame or has no idea about the game. which one of those are you? man why do i even ask its clear youre the latter. or both, since you cant play normal frames you need op stuff to get a kill or something.

4-you dont gain "just as much", as ive said before. not every frame gets the same value of a mod cus that %100 is as much as your frames base armor which is not the same for every frame, as ive said before. you have no idea how this game works, as ive said before. 

 

 

 

1.  That's only with an augment, if that were part of the base ability, yes, I'd give it to you.  Bleedout time does nothing if your whole team gets 1-shotted because they were relying on 30 health per second to soak up the 300 DPS 10 different enemies are throwing at you all at once.

2.  Maybe small transitional rooms, but no, 25 meters doesn't reach across most mid-size rooms.

3.  Again, no.  We have a precedent.  Content worth running for anything more than novelty either does enough damage to make itself useful, or gives you a window of opportunity to do that kind of damage with other, weaker content.  Like I said, Oberon's damage isn't even equivalent to a single primary shot.  Oberon's CC gives you a few seconds at best which you'll maybe get A finisher in before it's over.  His heals are hardly effective without running out of fire to wait it out, which you could argue Hydroid is the better jack of all trades then since you could heal people with undertow if you want, he has long lasting CC, and he can do corrosive procs if you wanted which are actually useful.

4.  You don't seem to understand what "proportional" means.  So let me try to help you with a simple math problem. If I have a 1:4 ratio, and I increase both numbers by 100%, that gives me a 2:8 ratio.  What does that break down to?  Wow.  1:4.  They're both PROPORTIONALLY the same.  Yes they're bigger but as far as determining what role each frame fits into, it's not going to change.

[Ceadeus]

8 minutes ago, Hopakkiin said:

He can also recover while taking damage. He might just be durable and not a tank. He also boasts certain CRC abilities. Just like a tank in real life.

Yes, but he typically doesn't recover fast enough to outweigh the damage he's taking was my point.  Idk what CRC is though, sorry :P

[Hopakkiin]

Just now, InsanityKey said:

Yes, but he typically doesn't recover fast enough to outweigh the damage he's taking was my point.  Idk what CRC is though, sorry :P

Crowd and Riot Control. No frame can tank forever, Oberon is still good enough for LVL 100+ Survival.

[Ceadeus]

3 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Meaning two targets at most at the same time. Oberon has no limit of enemies that he can CC with his 1 or 4. 

Well, yes, he has a limit on his 1, which is 1 target for the initial cast and then however many orbs you have which I think is determined by power strength?  Though I'm not even sure that each orb is a guaranteed knockdown.  So really since you have to keep recasting it, his 1 has about the same CC as Trinity.  And his 4 is limited by it's sub-par range, enemies can easily sit just outside of it and still be close enough to shoot you.

[aligatorno]

9 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

Well, yes, he has a limit on his 1, which is 1 target for the initial cast and then however many orbs you have which I think is determined by power strength?  Though I'm not even sure that each orb is a guaranteed knockdown.  So really since you have to keep recasting it, his 1 has about the same CC as Trinity.  And his 4 is limited by it's sub-par range, enemies can easily sit just outside of it and still be close enough to shoot you.

 We either talk about different things, or you are just trying to spin things your way.

Oberon has NO limits on how many enemies he can CC meaning that he can cast his 1 as many times as he wants and every enemy within his range is going to get CCed while using his 4. 

Trinity has Hard limits, she can only CC two enemies at most at the same time, it has nothing to do with range. 

Not only that, but Oberon's CC is miles better simply because it applies a rad proc, meaning that enemies near him will start attacking him, taking agro off of you. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by aligatorno

[Ceadeus]

6 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Range is not a problem for some builds (e.g. max efficiency/range). Sure, the heal goes to hell, but enemies OHK you at some point anyways, no matter how tough you are. Trinity shares the same problem. Sure her damage scales better than the former Oberon build mentioned, but can it keep her alive as well for long? Trinity depends on her abilities to survive, while Oberon has SOME decent survivability built in (better armor and health/shields). Trinity requires ENERGY to survive, Oberon requires LESS of it.

Of course Trinity will not fall faster than Oberon in terms of scaling, because she has a DEDICATED role. She has dedicated heals, Oberon doesn't. Oberon has better CC to compensate, something you CAN'T disprove.

Overall, Trinity is better than Oberon in the heals department (albeit situational, because Phoenix Renewal), but CC department? Good luck persuading me that Trinity is better than that compared to Oberon. Tanking is better on trinity because she has TANK skills that are just plain better than Oberon. But, again, at one point enemies will OHK anyone, so the point is kinda moot.

 

I disagree with the energy statement.  My Trinity expends something like 10-20 energy to cast EV, and it heals several hundred, my Blessing doesn't cost enough to really notice.  Oberon on the other hand is expending constant energy and then can't recover any from outside sources except for orbs.  He also drains even more energy for each additional person he wants to heal.  Combine that with how power hungry his other abilities get and he quickly drains himself out.

I'll give you it's better, just not enough to justify his gimped state.

[Ceadeus]

9 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Yeah maybe. Weird than I never felt it but why not.

Still, you didn't answer about my first question : How is the 75% damage reduction from Trinity a "literal invincibility" provided to teammates ? That's not even an "approximate invincibility" nor a "theoretical invincibility", so "literal"...

 

My bad, I'm still not used to it not being full invincibility anymore.  Hence why I started this topic with "I revisited my EV".  But still, a full heal and 75% reduction IMO is a lot better than 30 health per second when anything above level 30ish can deal more DPS and nullify that

[Ceadeus]

8 minutes ago, Hopakkiin said:

Crowd and Riot Control. No frame can tank forever, Oberon is still good enough for LVL 100+ Survival.

Ah, and yeah, if you run off to recover every few seconds.  Otherwise you'll just get shredded like any other frame :/

[p3z1]

5 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

I disagree with the energy statement.  My Trinity expends something like 10-20 energy to cast EV, and it heals several hundred, my Blessing doesn't cost enough to really notice.  Oberon on the other hand is expending constant energy and then can't recover any from outside sources except for orbs.  He also drains even more energy for each additional person he wants to heal.  Combine that with how power hungry his other abilities get and he quickly drains himself out.

I'll give you it's better, just not enough to justify his gimped state.

Now you are getting it. Trinity has her faults. Oberon has his. You really can't compare these 2 against each other because they have their own thing. Trinity locks down 2 targets HARD, Oberon semi-hard, but a LOT of targets. Damage falls later on, meaning technically trinity falls off faster in CC department.

Heal and sustain go to trinity. CC goes to Oberon. Both needs a team to fill their holes/weaknesses/blind-sides.

Edited May 9, 2017 by p3z1

[Zeclem]

7 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

1.  That's only with an augment, if that were part of the base ability, yes, I'd give it to you.  Bleedout time does nothing if your whole team gets 1-shotted because they were relying on 30 health per second to soak up the 300 DPS 10 different enemies are throwing at you all at once.

2.  Maybe small transitional rooms, but no, 25 meters doesn't reach across most mid-size rooms.

3.  Again, no.  We have a precedent.  Content worth running for anything more than novelty either does enough damage to make itself useful, or gives you a window of opportunity to do that kind of damage with other, weaker content.  Like I said, Oberon's damage isn't even equivalent to a single primary shot.  Oberon's CC gives you a few seconds at best which you'll maybe get A finisher in before it's over.  His heals are hardly effective without running out of fire to wait it out, which you could argue Hydroid is the better jack of all trades then since you could heal people with undertow if you want, he has long lasting CC, and he can do corrosive procs if you wanted which are actually useful.

4.  You don't seem to understand what "proportional" means.  So let me try to help you with a simple math problem. If I have a 1:4 ratio, and I increase both numbers by 100%, that gives me a 2:8 ratio.  What does that break down to?  Wow.  1:4.  They're both PROPORTIONALLY the same.  Yes they're bigger but as far as determining what role each frame fits into, it's not going to change.

1-when your whole team gets oneshotted it means the team is just S#&$.

2-https://gyazo.com/35d7af4db2b155fd1a517fd0328cbd2e thats one of the largest rooms in game if not the largest. stop feeding bullcrap.

3-oberons cc gives more than "a few seconds" stop with these blatant lies. his heals are very much effective as well, considering it gives each of your teammates HUNDREDS of heal fairly quickly, but ofc their range is "too small". just like your gray matter. stop insulting my intelligence with this bs.

4-yeah except that doesnt work that way in warframe. a valkyr without a steel fiber mod wont tank anything outside of her ult while being a really solid tank with it. a banshee wont be a tank at all either way. so yeah i know what "proportional" is. youre just wrong as usual.

[Ceadeus]

5 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

 We either talk about different things, or you are just trying to spin things your way.

Oberon has NO limits on how many enemies he can CC meaning that he can cast his 1 as many times as he wants and every enemy within his range is going to get CCed. 

Trinity has Hard limits, she can only CC two enemies at most at the same time, it has nothing to do with range. 

Not only that, but Oberon's CC is miles better simply because it applies a rad proc, meaning that enemies near him will start attacking him, taking agro off of you. 

 

Well by that logic Trin has NO limits.  She can cast EV as many times as she wants and the stagger lasts about the same amount of time as Oberon's knockdown does.

And I mentioned range because yes, Reckoning is gimped by its range.  Reckoning's range is terrible.

I don't think you understand what radiation is supposed to do.  It doesn't draw fire to whoever caused it.  Radiation is supposed to make enemies attack everything.  Radiation sucks BECAUSE enemies will still prioritize you more often than not even if there are other, closer enemies.

[Last_Hope2299]

Why do ppl compare specialised frames to hybrid frames? Hybrid frames are supposed to be able to do multiple things at once but not so efficiently. Its a paladin frame, it cant tank like a tank frame, nor can it heal like a cleric frame. But it has good survivability and can heal and tank to a certain degree if needed.

[Zeclem]

3 minutes ago, Last_Hope2299 said:

Why do ppl compare specialised frames to hybrid frames? Hybrid frames are supposed to be able to do multiple things at once but not so efficiently. Its a paladin frame, it cant tank like a tank frame, nor can it heal like a cleric frame. But it has good survivability and can heal and tank to a certain degree if needed.

kind answer:theyre not so good at this game

hard truth answer:theyre imbeciles.

[aligatorno]

3 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

Well by that logic Trin has NO limits.  She can cast EV as many times as she wants and the stagger lasts about the same amount of time as Oberon's knockdown does.

And I mentioned range because yes, Reckoning is gimped by its range.  Reckoning's range is terrible.

I don't think you understand what radiation is supposed to do.  It doesn't draw fire to whoever caused it.  Radiation is supposed to make enemies attack everything.  Radiation sucks BECAUSE enemies will still prioritize you more often than not even if there are other, closer enemies.

Again, different things. 

Also, Radiation makes any nearby enemy attack their radiated ally  almost immediately if they are closer. While yes, it does not work 100% of the time, it works more often than not. I use rad on my weapon so I`ve seen how they react. 

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

1-when your whole team gets oneshotted it means the team is just S#&$.

2-https://gyazo.com/35d7af4db2b155fd1a517fd0328cbd2e thats one of the largest rooms in game if not the largest. stop feeding bullcrap.

3-oberons cc gives more than "a few seconds" stop with these blatant lies. his heals are very much effective as well, considering it gives each of your teammates HUNDREDS of heal fairly quickly, but ofc their range is "too small". just like your gray matter. stop insulting my intelligence with this bs.

4-yeah except that doesnt work that way in warframe. a valkyr without a steel fiber mod wont tank anything outside of her ult while being a really solid tank with it. a banshee wont be a tank at all either way. so yeah i know what "proportional" is. youre just wrong as usual.

 

1.  I think we're seeing who is really toxic here if getting hit with one bullet amongst the mobs of enemies that spawn at those stages makes you "S#&$".

2.  I could go to 10 different rooms and take screenshots of how they're 100+m but I don't really wanna hop in a bunch of missions just to do that.  If that's the largest room you've seen, you clearly don't explore the game much.

3.  No, they really don't.  They give you the duration of the knockdown (We'll say ~6 seconds MAYBE) or a blind (~4).  His heals only give a burst at the initial cast.  After that it's just the health per second value, which is not hundreds btw.  Nice toxicity.

4.  No, because the point was not whether or not it made them able to tank.  But for some reason you don't seem to be able to grasp that because you need a reason to try to sound correct.

[Ceadeus]

Just now, aligatorno said:

Again, different things. 

Also, Radiation makes any nearby enemy attack their radiated ally  almost immediately if they are closer. While yes, it does not work 100% of the time, it works more often than not. I use rad on my weapon so I`ve seen how they react. 

 

They're not though... They're both a very temporary CC with scaling damage.

Radiation makes things attack anything.  The only time radiation works properly more than not is if you're across the room, in which case you can't use reckoning on them anyway, because of its gimped range.  So you're back to single target CC.

[Last_Hope2299]

I believe there is ingame parkour?

[Blakrana]

5 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

hes very much perfect where he is now.

With due respect, that's not the case. Whilst Oberon is better than he was, does not mean he is not still within realm for improvement.

One of the largest issues he has currently is how Renewal's 'Drain per target' does not play nicely with how broadly it applies in regards to targets. Specifically, it works on summon units where it didn't used to:

• Nyx's Mind Control Target
• Loki's Decoy
• Atlas' Rumblers
• Nekros' Shadows of the Dead
• Inaros' Sand Shadows
• Possibly Titania's Razorflies

All serve as potential additional recipients of Renewal's effect. This is nice in theory until you factor in the 'per target' energy cost and thus, the more units spawned by these skills, the harsher on the unlucky Oberon's Energy reserves, should they catch them in the effect. This is why a Nekros' Shadows are a very awkward situation at moment, especially if you're trying to reapply the effect to members after they lost it, be it a Nullifier or the like.

Were Renewal a flat drain regardless of Target number, this interaction with Summon abilities wouldn't be an issue; providing Armour and some bolstered uptime for a Nekros' Shadows could be a nice bit of teamwork, as it'd give the Nekros more out of them by extension. The only one whereby it's strictly redundant is Nyx's Mind Control target, if not outright counter-productive as the target is under a Damage Delay until Mind Control ends, where any received healing Oberon applies may mean it's still alive longer than you'd perhaps like, such as a Bombard or Napalm.

After this, Hallowed Ground on it's own is somewhat...lacking. It's the Foundation to Renewal and Reckoning's expanded effects, but otherwise alone it exists as a strangely shaped field of CC immunity. This leads to the first issue it has with Reckoning; Reckoning is a Spherical effect, ergo any shortcoming on Hallowed Ground's application will render some targets unaffected by the effect. To counter this you can go 2, spin 180, 2, 4, but...Why not simply have it as a proper circular area and go from there? Saves energy, and reduces issues with misses. Furthermore, a properly spherical area provides a party with more applicable ground to benefit from it, thus easing the provision of Iron Renewal bolstering.

Nothing major, but so far as my experiences so far go with Oberon since the changes, these would help towards improving his overall energy economy and, by extension, allow him to sustain the party for longer. Even gives him a unique capacity, if it allows him to sustain other player's summons without his energy crashing from trying as it stands now.

[Gorila_Azul]

2 hours ago, Walkampf said:

but what if you need Oberon to take several roles at once?

You bring Nezha.