Self destruct? X.x

[H0PE]

Just wanted to check out the game after a longer absence.

Was blowing myself up with the tonkor, by shooting at enemy 8-10 steps away from me, when I just insta died -to my surprise and gave me a nice sarcastic giggle also-.
So this (and similar) launcher got useless then?
Wondering what changed regarding self damage and which weapon rendered to uselessness?

[SurrealEdge]

It was changed to make them more in line with other weapons that were similar. After all, wouldn't a powerful weapon need a drawback for using it?

[(XBOX)rocketstar31]

Basically, we all jumped on the nerf train. Unfortunately, 10% of the passengers would later regret it. Search up Simulor Nerf as well (although I would call it a small buff). Also, since you missed that, the Redeemer's stealth mechanics have been removed. :'(

[CrudShuzKong]

All explosive aoe weapons do self damage, tonkor used to be the exception, but no more.

[H0PE]

Ok thanks, one more weapon can be deleted then.

Not that I need new slot for new weapons anyways.

Ok have fun guys, ciao!

[Acersecomic]

46 minutes ago, H0PE said:

Just wanted to check out the game after a longer absence.

Was blowing myself up with the tonkor, by shooting at enemy 8-10 steps away from me, when I just insta died -to my surprise and gave me a nice sarcastic giggle also-.
So this (and similar) launcher got useless then?
Wondering what changed regarding self damage and which weapon rendered to uselessness?

Why useless? Just because you have to follow the laws of other launchers it's useless? Just stop faceploding.

[SurrealEdge]

14 minutes ago, H0PE said:

Ok thanks, one more weapon can be deleted then.

Not that I need new slot for new weapons anyways.

Ok have fun guys, ciao!

That's a very fickle way of thinking. Just because there's a consequence to using a specific weapon doesn't mean you should toss it away just because it has the potential to hurt yourself. Just play accordingly.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Acersecomic said:

Why useless? Just because you have to follow the laws of other launchers it's useless? Just stop faceploding.

1 hour ago, SurrealEdge said:

That's a very fickle way of thinking. Just because there's a consequence to using a specific weapon doesn't mean you should toss it away just because it has the potential to hurt yourself. Just play accordingly.

Okay, tell my teammates, sentinels, pets, vacumed up items,irregular invisible item borders and teammate skills to stop appearing suddenly infront of me.

Seriously the main reason why explosive launchers are underused because you will kil yourself with them. Unless you sit on a literally unreachable spot where nothing can get infront of you.

[shut]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)rocketstar31 said:

Search up Simulor Nerf as well (although I would call it a small buff). 

Out of curiosity, what part of the Simulor do you consider to be better than before?

I was all for nerfing it since it was vastly overpowered, but DE went way too far and made it borderline useless compared to other options (e.g. literally any other AoE weapon). Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but is the current SSimulor capable of doing something that the pre-nerf one couldn't do a billion times better?

[(XBOX)rocketstar31]

2 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Out of curiosity, what part of the Simulor do you consider to be better than before?

I was all for nerfing it since it was vastly overpowered, but DE went way too far and made it borderline useless compared to other options (e.g. literally any other AoE weapon). Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but is the current SSimulor capable of doing something that the pre-nerf one couldn't do a billion times better?

 

AoE range has gone up, crit chance has gone up, status chance has gone up, explosion damage has gone up from 50 to 75. The only bad-ish thing is the ammo reduction, and that's fair for something so op.

[SurrealEdge]

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Okay, tell my teammates, sentinels, pets, vacumed up items,irregular invisible item borders and teammate skills to stop appearing suddenly infront of me.

Seriously the main reason why explosive launchers are underused because you will kil yourself with them. Unless you sit on a literally unreachable spot where nothing can get infront of you.

It just means you need to learn to aim.

There's no reason to treat them as the only weapon of choice and shoot it at your feet.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, SurrealEdge said:

It just means you need to learn to aim.

There's no reason to treat them as the only weapon of choice and shoot it at your feet.

So you are telling me its my fault that vacumed up items can blow up ogris rockets?

Or that several object have slightly bigger hitboxes than what we see?

I guess its my fault that i launched a tonkor nade at the incoming infested when my teammate decided to charge into them and made the nade bounce off him directly at me.

 

This game has the worst self damage system i have ever seen and not just becuase even the weakest explosive gun can murder your strongest frames.

 

 

[SurrealEdge]

Just now, Fallen_Echo said:

So you are telling me its my fault that vacumed up items can blow up ogris rockets?

Or that several object have slightly bigger hitboxes than what we see?

I guess its my fault that i launched a tonkor nade at the incoming infested when my teammate decided to charge into them and made the nade bounce off him directly at me.

 

This game has the worst self damage system i have ever seen and not just becuase even the weakest explosive gun can murder your strongest frames.

We have extreme mobility for a reason. Use that to your advantage, and not confine yourself to be blasted away in confined spaces because you trapped yourself in a literal corner.

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, SurrealEdge said:

We have extreme mobility for a reason. Use that to your advantage, and not confine yourself to be blasted away in confined spaces because you trapped yourself in a literal corner.

I think this just highlited another problem with these weapons. To use them properly i have to dart around in semi-big rooms like a madman to not kill myself. I rather take any other gun in that case and keep the explosives for maps like hyeracon where we have big enough spaces to safely use them.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

8 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

Why useless? Just because you have to follow the laws of other launchers it's useless? Just stop faceploding.

Probably because it was a exceptation for launchers in the first place.

Any other launcher could explode on you but it wasn't as likely as they had (and still have) eather a remote controll or explode on impact. The tonkor, well, the tonkor fires frickin gummi projectiles that are able to jump back to you fired straight actross the map. This wonky mechanic was the reason for the exceptation in the first place.

 

But did they add a new mechanic that isn't essencially a ripp off of the drakgoon but, ya know, uses somewhat of a realistic, heavy behavior? Na fam. All they did was shortening its detonation timer a bit, what does nothing for you if the grenade decides to violently jump back at you.

Definitly useless untill they start actually "balancing" stuff, instead of just nerfing it.

[Acersecomic]

11 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Okay, tell my teammates, sentinels, pets, vacumed up items,irregular invisible item borders and teammate skills to stop appearing suddenly infront of me.

Seriously the main reason why explosive launchers are underused because you will kil yourself with them. Unless you sit on a literally unreachable spot where nothing can get infront of you.

Never had that problem with increased blast radius at that.

The only times I kill myself is on rare ocasions when I'm not playing LIKE I AM SUPPOSED TO WHEN USING A LAUNCHER. Same how you don't use a Kohm to snipe enemies and similar ridiculous things.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Acersecomic

[shut]

20 hours ago, (Xbox One)rocketstar31 said:

AoE range has gone up, crit chance has gone up, status chance has gone up, explosion damage has gone up from 50 to 75. The only bad-ish thing is the ammo reduction, and that's fair for something so op.

I'm not quite as familiar with post-nerf SSimulor mechanics as I was with pre-nerf, but from some testing that I'm doing right now:

- Merge range has been MASSIVELY nerfed, from 11m (constant) to 5m (constant).

- Detonation range has been buffed, from 5m (constant) to 5m-8m (ramps up). The singularity DoT's radius has also been buffed from 5m to 8m.
(Note that this is still much, much worse than pre-nerf merge radius. AND it requires maximum stacks.)

 

Regarding the other stuff:

- Crit chance has decreased from 10% (iirc) to 5%.

- Status is nice (especially for Blast builds, which help prevent the stupid thing from pushing enemies out of the damage radius), but it's not much of a priority on a weapon with such a low tick rate. It's helpful, but not a gamechanger like it is on the Torid or TigrisP.

- Explosion damage was indeed just 50 pre-nerf... which is why nobody used the bloody explosions. People instead used merge damage, which did a fixed ~270 damage over a fixed ~11m radius.

 

~ TL;DR ~
The effective damage of the weapon went from ~270 per shot to 75 per shot. That's barely 1/4 of its initial damage, even without considering the huge nerf to the damage radius.

 

 

(Side note: The merge and detonation radii (both pre-nerf and post-nerf) listed in the U20.0 patch notes are very, VERY inaccurate.
- Merge radius does not ramp up, and never has.
- Merge damage does not ramp up, and never has.
- Almost none of the listed radii come close to matching actual ingame behaviour.
Makes me wonder if DE has actually tested the weapon's behaviour themselves, at any point during the weapon's existence.)

Edited May 8, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Fallen_Echo]

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)rocketstar31 said:

AoE range has gone up Thats true

crit chance has gone up Nope it was decreased to 5%

 status chance has gone up íÍTrue again

explosion damage has gone up from 50 to 75 True again

You forgot to write these down:

On 2017. 03. 24. at 10:31 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

• On an orb stacking event (when orbs combine), damage range decreased to 1-8 from 3-8
• On an orb stacking event, damage decreased from 150-250 to 20-50

The stacking damage got decreased by approx 85-90%

The only bad-ish thing is the ammo reduction, and that's fair for something so op.

On overall, this weapon is now only useful in the hands of mirage.

[(XBOX)rocketstar31]

9 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

On overall, this weapon is now only useful in the hands of mirage.

To be fair, the stacking damage was right to be decreased or else Mirage would've still used it completely. (metaphorically, not literally.) And really, I don't get why people are complaining. It was awesome for SO long, now it's decent. Don't blame DE, blame the Mirage-Simulors.

[Fallen_Echo]

21 minutes ago, (Xbox One)rocketstar31 said:

To be fair, the stacking damage was right to be decreased or else Mirage would've still used it completely. (metaphorically, not literally.) And really, I don't get why people are complaining. It was awesome for SO long, now it's decent. Don't blame DE, blame the Mirage-Simulors.

No, now its useless. Before the patch this was a good gun for everybody and godlike for mirage.

Now its a weak gun for everybody and a really good gun for mirage.

Before the patch it was sortie viable for everybody, now only mirage can use it there.

[(XBOX)rocketstar31]

31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

No, now its useless. Before the patch this was a good gun for everybody and godlike for mirage.

Now its a weak gun for everybody and a really good gun for mirage.

Before the patch it was sortie viable for everybody, now only mirage can use it there.

 

That's the problem, it's too good.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)rocketstar31 said:

That's the problem, it's too good.

In the hands of mirage every gun is good. Even the tysis can become sortie viable on a max power strenght mirage.

[(XBOX)rocketstar31]

5 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

In the hands of mirage every gun is good. Even the tysis can become sortie viable on a max power strenght mirage.

I suppose :(

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

On 5/8/2017 at 1:09 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

On overall, this weapon is now only useful in the hands of mirage.

Actually, it's generally useful for laying down status and armor stripping. It reaches 100% status with 4 dual status (96% with 3 and Hammer Shot). Vile Acceleration brings the fire rate to 4/sec. Point Strike gives it a crit chance of 30%.

The AOEs of both fire modes aren't large, but a corrosive build will work wonders on clustered enemies. Merge to strip armor, then detonate to finish, and they take a forced electric proc if they survive. You can use multishot to speed up merging, which is actually desirable now since merge damage is so low, but personally I would use Sinister Reach instead. If you're willing to drop to 78% status, you can ditch a dual status (assuming you're using 3 and Hammer Shot, otherwise trading Hammer Shot will leave you with 84%) to increase the fire rate further with Speed Trigger for quicker procs and, more importantly, keeping multiple targets stunlocked while you deal with them. This is important since the weapon must be used at relatively close range.

Also, if you're really that concerned with self-damage, Penta is harmless with Tether Grenades. You'd have to be a vegetable to kill yourself with that. Personally, the only self-damage weapons I consider dangerous are Kulstar, Angstrum and post-buff Ogris. But as long as you're paying attention to your surroundings, suicide is infrequent if it ever happens at all. Radar is your friend. (They do need a VFX that indicates the actual explosion radius though.)

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Also, if you're really that concerned with self-damage, Penta is harmless with Tether Grenades.

Not anymore.  They "fixed" that when they made the changes to all the other weapons.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

25 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Not anymore.  They "fixed" that when they made the changes to all the other weapons.

I wasn't referring to TG removing self-damage. I'm aware that it doesn't. The reason it's harmless is because the grenades are on an 8s timed detonation, or manual detonation. Their behavior is predictable and so is the range. You have plenty of time to setup, react and gtfo.