A peculiar thought towards removing Limbo's obtrusive nature

[Bobtm]

So it's safe to say that Limbo, by his very core nature, is incredibly prone to obtrusive play when used in multiplayer scenarios.  Much as I enjoy the frame myself (I don't use long duration Stasis or try Cataspam) I've come to utterly despise it when I end up paired with another player who uses Limbo nine times out of ten.  Funnily enough, due to the obscure nature of his mechanics, even as a Limbo myself I suffer very heavily when paired with other Limbos, and it's this situation that eventually lead me to a strange possible solution to the entire Limbo problem;

Isolate almost all of Limbos powers, to effect only the user themselves, and NPC entities.

It's a hard-lined change for sure, but there could be ways to mechanically apply it that would/could hopefully fix the entire issue.  So long as it's actually feasible to be coded in the way I'm about to describe.  For the Limbo player, literally nothing changes for their play.  The Rift, its rules, restrictions and advantages all work exactly like they do now.  But Banish, when cast on an allied player, would not put them in the Rift and instead just give them an X duration energy regen buff.

Allies' gunfire would ignore the Rift state, meaning they could shoot enemies whether they are in the Rift or not.  But by proxy, allies can also still be damaged by enemies who are inside of the Rift, if those enemies aren't locked in Stasis.  Suddenly a Limbo that uses a very wide area Stasis isn't imposing on allies' play at all.

If a Limbo player's abilities only impact themselves on a mechanical level, then they literally cannot be obtrusive to anyone at all.  This would also apply to making each Limbo (if more than one are present) an isolated incident of the Rift.  Because right now, two Limbos together cannot work in unison at all.

This suggested change is by no means an elegant one.  It's like taking a sledgehammer to an ice sculpture, but I'll be damned if it wouldn't make a night and day difference to the current situation.

[Sakatchi]

Or you can deal with it, and not ruin the frame for others simply because you don't like him.

[PrVonTuckIII]

Hmmmmm....

 

Nope.

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

Or play solo.

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

For some reason it double posted :p

Edited May 16, 2017 by (XB1)ultimategamerjr

[Bobtm]

4 minutes ago, Sakatchi said:

Or you can deal with it, and not ruin the frame for others simply because you don't like him.

Precisely how would that ruin the frame?  For the Limbo player who is using Limbo, there is no change at all.  Everything works exactly like it does now for them.  But other players don't have to deal with his crap.

As a note, Limbo is both by far and away my favorite frame by a very large margin, and my most used frame.

The change I'm suggesting is not to alter the way in which his powers work for himself in any way at all, period.  It is only to suggest that his powers don't impact allied play.

[(XBOX)Spaztic Magic]

Having recently acquired Limbo and thus trying to learn how to work him effectively, I feel that this idea is one that attempts to mitigate the multiplayer issues with Limbo--a worthy topic, honestly. However, I think they may be a bit extreme. In my meager experience, his ability to send allies to the rift is super useful for reviving them! (If only I were better at it...)

[Yzjdriel]

1 minute ago, Bobtm said:

Precisely how would that ruin the frame?  For the Limbo player who is using Limbo, there is no change at all.  Everything works exactly like it does now for them.  But other players don't have to deal with his crap.

As a note, Limbo is both by far and away my favorite frame by a very large margin, and my most used frame.

The change I'm suggesting is not to alter the way in which his powers work for himself in any way at all, period.  It is only to suggest that his powers don't impact allied play.

Okay, fine.  Change it.  But you have to make Nova's ult only work for her too.  And Frost's Snow Globe only exists for Frost.  And Trin can only heal herself with Blessing too.

 

No.  If you use a power, either it affects everyone or it affects no one.  No exceptions.

[Tesseract7777]

Some of you are instantly dismissive without really giving anything involving an explanation. 

I'm not sure it is the best solution, but Limbo has always been a problem, and if anything the rework made it worse. The issue is that Limbo, by his nature "divides and conquers enemies in the rift". This means he controls the battlefield and chooses who is in what plane at any given time. 

Outside of well organized coop games, Limbo will always be an issue in PUG's because people don't like randomly having their control taken away. 

IMO, something should be done to make him less intrusive towards other players, to deal with that problem. As it stands, by his very nature, he takes control away from other players, and helps breed a toxic atmosphere just by being in a PUG. 

[PrVonTuckIII]

Except it makes no sense, at least from a lore standpoint, because if we could hit targets in the Rift, without being in the Rift, then our bullets would literally be punching through dimensions to hit our targets. 

Otherwise, there are better ways to affect Limbo, and a straight up sledgehammer is not one of them.

[Bobtm]

1 minute ago, Yzjdriel said:

Okay, fine.  Change it.  But you have to make Nova's ult only work for her too.  And Frost's Snow Globe only exists for Frost.  And Trin can only heal herself with Blessing too.

 

No.  If you use a power, either it affects everyone or it affects no one.  No exceptions.

That's a slippery slope fallacy.  Frost's Snow Globe doesn't excessively impact allies in a negative way.

Trinity's healing has 0 negative impact on allies.

Nova's slow has no negative impact on allies.

2 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Except it makes no sense, at least from a lore standpoint, because if we could hit targets in the Rift, without being in the Rift, then our bullets would literally be punching through dimensions to hit our targets. 

Otherwise, there are better ways to affect Limbo, and a straight up sledgehammer is not one of them.

I've never been one to care for lore over gameplay.  I can understand that reasoning however so that's fair.  However, what other solutions?

I've not seen a single good idea that could make Limbo work in a way to stop his obtrusive nature yet.  Which is why this very heavy-handed idea eventually came to mind.

By no means do I think my idea is the best answer, but it would immediately stop everyone from rightfully hating to play alongside Limbo.

[VinDanger]

8 minutes ago, Sakatchi said:

Or you can deal with it, and not ruin the frame for others simply because you don't like him.

or they can change the frame who's sole purpose seems to be taking control away from those around him

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

Or play solo.

or just fix the obvious problem (limbo) and not force people to play solo in a co-op game

[Arkvold]

14 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Precisely how would that ruin the frame?  For the Limbo player who is using Limbo, there is no change at all.  Everything works exactly like it does now for them.  But other players don't have to deal with his crap.

Limbo's strength is that, used properly, he can protect allies and objectives and allow himself and allies to control engagements in a way that no other Warframe can - by outright picking and choosing who can shoot at him and who can't.

Removing Limbo's ability to affect the Rift state for others, and making his powers on NPCs affect only their interactions with Limbo, would gut him of a significant portion of his primary utility, his flavor, and his uniqueness.  It would also rob him of his presence in fights - sure, enemies couldn't shoot at him when rifted, but they could quite easily shoot at someone Limbo is trying to save from death.

It would also create more confusion as to who can be shot by what, since the answer is different based on whether the shooter is Limbo or an enemy, and whether that enemy was shooting at Limbo, another player, or another NPC.

Yes, Limbo can be used to troll those who don't understand how his powers work.  And Stasis, in particular, can be combined with a wide-range Cataclysm to troll pretty much Limbo's entire team.  That is what needs to be addressed, via specific, precise changes, not a sledgehammer to his core functionality.

Fact is, Limbo has both a very high skill ceiling and a very high skill floor - it takes a lot more effort and thought to play Limbo in a functional manner than most Warframes, and it takes a Herculean effort to actually play Limbo well outside of one or two mission types.  Most of the complaints about Limbo are due to either players with little skill in using him, or outright trolls.

The best solution for Limbo is a rework that makes him simpler and more intuitive to understand and use, and one that actively prevents using him to troll.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Arkvold

[(XBOX)Spaztic Magic]

22 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm not sure it is the best solution, but Limbo has always been a problem, and if anything the rework made it worse. The issue is that Limbo, by his nature "divides and conquers enemies in the rift". This means he controls the battlefield and chooses who is in what plane at any given time. 

Outside of well organized coop games, Limbo will always be an issue in PUG's because people don't like randomly having their control taken away. 

IMO, something should be done to make him less intrusive towards other players, to deal with that problem. As it stands, by his very nature, he takes control away from other players, and helps breed a toxic atmosphere just by being in a PUG. 

From my perspective, I think the burden should be on the player in learning how to be a conscientious player in PUGs. Perhaps Limbo is one of the frames that really requires a team-player state of mind to be used in a way that doesn't completely alienate him. I, personally, am enjoying trying to figure out how to use him best in PUGs, since using him solo isn't hard at all really...at least not in theory (ha!)

No, this doesn't solve or enforce limitations on his obtrusiveness. But the same could be said for things like Ember's WoF, which can eat up all the kills in a mission and leave everyone just running about collecting things. It's annoying, and downright frustrating. Not quite as extreme as Limbo's case, true.

Edited May 16, 2017 by (XB1)Spaztic Magic

[Clonmac]

People need to just learn how to play with other players and come to the terms that when you play online, your style of play will be impacted in many ways. In otherwords, you're just going to have to get over it.

I played in a game the other day with a Mag who had a very large range on his Magnetize. This effectively pulled in all my bullets making them useless while he was able to in turn take my shots and turn them into damage for himself. This was way more intrusive than any Limbo ability could possibly be. But, you know what? Rather than complaining I simply saw it as a case where, here I was playing a game online where many interactions are involved with many players using many different abilities. By adding my damage to his magnetize I was increasing the damage we would do as a team while his Magnetize was protecting me from enemy bullets. Sure, those kills were not being added to my total, but that's just what any team game will amount to.

My point is, I could rattle off any an endless number of combinations where any number of Warframes could hamper someone else's playstyle.

-Frost's Snow Globe will prevent me from shooting through it and it is much more permanent of a structure.

-Mag's Magnetize can steal my bullets for Mag's own purpose and rob me from dealing any damage at all.

-Ember can just stand there and kill enemies before I even have a chance to see them.

-Nova Molecular Prime can prevent me from clearing out large swathes of enemies myself, effectively giving me only one kill while giving the Nova the rest from the chain reaction.

-Hydroid and Zephyr's Ult can make it extremely difficult to target enemies as they're tossed around.

-Finisher frames (Excalibur, Inaros) can make it annoying for melee frames to combo through swathes of enemies without going into finisher animations

etc, etc, etc...

 

This is a team game and I don't see people complaining about all the numerous ways that other frames can hinder your ability to kill. The truth of the matter is that Limbo just delays your ability to kill, he doesn't completely stop it like Mag, Frost or many of the other examples I've provided.

[(XBOX)Spaztic Magic]

15 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Limbo's strength is that, used properly, he can protect allies and objectives and allow himself and allies to control engagements in a way that no other Warframe can - by outright picking and choosing who can shoot at him and who can't.

...

Yes, Limbo can be used to troll those who don't understand how his powers work.  And Stasis, in particular, can be combined with a wide-range Cataclysm to troll pretty much Limbo's entire team.  That is what needs to be addressed, via specific, precise changes, not a sledgehammer to his core functionality.

How would one address the possible trolling of an entire squad? Perhaps it is automatic that your squad mates get partial damage to Rifted enemies? Even that doesn't seem right, though. Perhaps when in the presence of Rifted enemies your squad mates can get a minor buff, even though they can't interact directly with Rifted enemies. This would help them with enemies that aren't Rifted.

This still doesn't address the whole Stasis-Cataclism thing though...

[Yzjdriel]

2 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

That's a slippery slope fallacy.  Frost's Snow Globe doesn't excessively impact allies in a negative way.

Trinity's healing has 0 negative impact on allies.

Nova's slow has no negative impact on allies.

It is most certainly not a slippery slop fallacy, as I never said "if this, then that".  I was just pointing out the asininity in saying "we should change Warframe X's powers to that they only work for him and no one else" just because he's different.

Just because it takes more brainpower than "stand still, spam 4" to play with a Limbo in your squad does not need we need to completely obliterate his role in team play.  Stasis isn't actually an issue for anyone, once they bother to learn what it actually does instead of emptying multiple clips at a suspended enemy and then getting mad that it isn't dead.

[Bobtm]

9 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

It would also rob him of his presence in fights - sure, enemies couldn't shoot at him when rifted, but they could quite easily shoot at someone Limbo is trying to save from death.

Except Stasis would still freeze a Rifted foe, meaning they won't be firing in the first place.

10 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Fact is, Limbo has both a very high skill ceiling and a very high skill floor - it takes a lot more effort and thought to play Limbo in a functional manner than most Warframes, and it takes a Herculean effort to actually play Limbo well outside of one or two mission types.  Most of the complaints about Limbo are due to either players with little skill in using him, or outright trolls.

I'm more than well acquainted with this notion.  In fact (as crazy as this may sound) I use Limbo almost constantly yet I've never been on the recieving end of complaints of others during PUG runs.  Accomplishing this has been a very large pain in the rear, without a doubt.

Thing is, most players don't care what their allies think.

13 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Yes, Limbo can be used to troll those who don't understand how his powers work.  And Stasis, in particular, can be combined with a wide-range Cataclysm to troll pretty much Limbo's entire team.  That is what needs to be addressed, via specific, precise changes, not a sledgehammer to his core functionality.

My question there is;  How?

I'm more than open to a more elegant solution than the one which I proposed.  I honestly don't even like my own suggestion from the standpoint that it is a sledgehammer of a solution.  But in all honesty, I can't fathom anything of that nature without completely removing Stasis at the bare minimum.

4 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

This is a team game and I don't see people complaining about all the numerous ways that other frames can hinder your ability to kill. The truth of the matter is that Limbo just delays your ability to kill, he doesn't completely stop it like Mag, Frost or many of the other examples I've provided

This is incorrect across the majority of your examples.

Limbo turns on Stasis, opens up Cataclsym, tags every foe with Rift Surge, turns off Cataclysm.  Now nobody can shoot any of those enemies and nobody can melee any of those enemies.  What Mag or Frost can do pales vastly by comparison.

Mag's 2 is hard capped at having only as many as 4 existing instances at any given time.  Ember is only an autokill issue at low level play (still an issue, but that's scaling).  Frost's globe too is limited to 4 instances, and doesn't hard stop gunfire from functioning.  Nova's MPrime chain reactions too are only an issue at low level, because of scaling.  Hydroid and Zephyr both need a new 4, so that's a fair one (RNG CC is meh even at its finest).  The Finisher example interrupting combos is also a fair example as it does put a hard stop on the use of the melee combo system.

6 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

People need to just learn how to play with other players and come to the terms that when you play online, your style of play will be impacted in many ways. In otherwords, you're just going to have to get over it.

I've never yet bailed on a game when I run into an allied Limbo and never will, nor will I do that for running into any frame.  I'm of the like mindset that playing online has these ramifications.  Playing with and around allies is the nature of online games.

But that same thing is not an excuse for what is essentially poor design.  Limbo is quite literally an anti-teamplay frame in his current iteration.  There are many frames as you've described which impose some levels of difficulty in teamwork to another.  But they aren't outright anti-team frames.

My idea is by no means the best idea.  However it's very true that Limbo should not remain in his current state.  And as someone who enjoys Limbo, I honest to goodness hate to say that.  But his current design is not right for a multiplayer game.  The reason I proposed this idea is purely because it is one that won't change the playstyle of any Limbo player.  All it does is stop Limbo from being a headache for others that aren't the specific Limbo user in question.

[Arkvold]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Spaztic Magic said:

How would one address the possible trolling of an entire squad?  ...  This still doesn't address the whole Stasis-Cataclism thing though...

The best way to address the combo of Stasis and Cataclysm?  Simple - allow allied shots to continue unimpeded.

For those who are about to cry "BUT THAT'S BROKEN!" consider this:  A Resonating Quake Banshee can stun, and eventually destroy, an entire Interception map on her lonesome, given a central position, enough energy, the right build, and a few seconds of time for Soundquake to 'warm up' to maximum range and damage.  If one frame using one ability is allowed to solo a mission, what's so broken about this?

Cataclysm's range naturally shrinks with time until it collapses, as opposed to Resonating Soundquake which expands.  During that time anything inside its area of effect cannot move and cannot shoot, and even if they fire into it, they can't harm anyone inside because they're in the wrong plane.  Limbo and his allies are unaffected by anything except their Rift state - their shots are not stopped by stasis and they can freely kill any enemy dumb enough to be caught in or wander into the Cataclysm effect.  This requires more effort than the Banshee player is expending - she's just holding down 4.  The Limbo player still has to go out and kill stuff, or get allies to do it, and he has to use two abilities to pull it off instead of just one.

Yes, it might make Limbo kinda broken - but no more broken than some other examples I can, and have, named.

[Bobtm]

2 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

The best way to address the combo of Stasis and Cataclysm?  Simple - allow allied shots to continue unimpeded.

That's another solution that I'm also greatly in favor of.

[(XBOX)Spaztic Magic]

10 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

The best way to address the combo of Stasis and Cataclysm?  Simple - allow allied shots to continue unimpeded.

For those who are about to cry "BUT THAT'S BROKEN!" consider this:  A Resonating Quake Banshee can stun, and eventually destroy, an entire Interception map on her lonesome, given a central position, enough energy, the right build, and a few seconds of time for Soundquake to 'warm up' to maximum range and damage.  If one frame using one ability is allowed to solo a mission, what's so broken about this?

Cataclysm's range naturally shrinks with time until it collapses, as opposed to Resonating Soundquake which expands.  During that time anything inside its area of effect cannot move and cannot shoot, and even if they fire into it, they can't harm anyone inside because they're in the wrong plane.  Limbo and his allies are unaffected by anything except their Rift state - their shots are not stopped by stasis and they can freely kill any enemy dumb enough to be caught in or wander into the Cataclysm effect.  This requires more effort than the Banshee player is expending - she's just holding down 4.  The Limbo player still has to go out and kill stuff, or get allies to do it, and he has to use two abilities to pull it off instead of just one.

Yes, it might make Limbo kinda broken - but no more broken than some other examples I can, and have, named.

The stopping of the bullets is certainly a big crux of the problem, yes. Even lore wise I could kind of see how this can make sense. After all, Tenno were in the Void and therefore changed permanently from that exposure. Perhaps if your squad mates shoot at Rifted enemies it would require a bit of energy to "hop" planes and make contact? I could see that being viable, maybe?

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

32 minutes ago, VinDanger said:

 

or just fix the obvious problem (limbo) and not force people to play solo in a co-op game

Or maybe realize that Limbo isn't the problem, it is just that people will complain about anything, especially if it is too good.

[Clonmac]

Cataclysm is capped at 1. Saying that Magnetize and Snow Globe are capped at 4 doesn't take away from the hindrance that they can be on the teammates.

Putting Rift Surge on a group of enemies and then dropping Cataclysm so that only Limbo can attack them immediately takes away Limbo's hindrance on his teammates to attack other enemies that weren't targeted. That's essentially like Limbo "claiming" enemies in an area as his while allowing his teammates to continue on unimpeded. How is this different from any other frame who targets a group of enemies before someone else does in any other way that other frames are capable of? Weapons that have punch-through by your definition are a hindrance to teammates that don't have punch-through because they can hit enemies up ahead that other teammates can't hit yet.

Just because Molecular Prime is only effective and low-mid tiers doesn't change the fact that it can't be a hindrance to your teammates. You can't put criteria around these things just so that they only meet up to your own definition of "being a hindrance". That type of thinking is selfish. If you want to think along those lines, then I'll add that at very high levels of gameplay, any teammate would be extremely happy to have Limbo's capability on the team and that at those levels of play Limbo really shines as a team player.

Frost's Snow Globe absolutely hard stops gunfire, certainly in more of a way than Cataclysm. Cataclysm won't stop gunfire from hitting enemies through it to the other side of it (from material plane to material plane). Unlike with Snow Globe where the only direction of gunfire allowed is from inside to out. That is way more restrictive. Plus, given Cataclysm's shorter duration, it is nowhere near the hindrance. Whenever I see Snow Globe outside of defense missions, I just cringe.

 

[Marine027]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

Or maybe realize that Limbo isn't the problem, it is just that people will complain about anything, especially if it is too good.

^This.

Why gets the frame keep blamed also for people trollijng on purpose, not the Frame is the problem but the people are, who in my eyes should be punsihed somehow, as extreme it sounds but also sadly hard to make without hitting innocents with such punishment aswell. Just ignore those trolls who do dubm stuff with Limbo and leave the other Limbo Players alone.

[Hypernaut1]

54 minutes ago, Yzjdriel said:

Okay, fine.  Change it.  But you have to make Nova's ult only work for her too.  And Frost's Snow Globe only exists for Frost.  And Trin can only heal herself with Blessing too.

 

No.  If you use a power, either it affects everyone or it affects no one.  No exceptions.

Mags greedy pull only works for her